Hi Guys, just a quick one, I dont have access to a chrony at the moment and would like to know if anyone of you has measured the velocities of the following two factory loads and in what barrel length?
NORMA 150gr
RWS 175gr
Many thanks

The Norma load is pretty warm, usually 2750-2800 fps. It has been a long time since I chronoed it, but that is from memory. Never shot any RWS. Mine were in 22 in. barrels, I think I was shooting an M70 featherweight then.

Thanks jstevens, I heard that but needed confirmation.

Depends on how the gun is set up..

All of my 7x57 are set up on a 30-06 length action with a throat to match, which would mean that I can seat a 175 gr. Nosler or Hornady .284 depth and gain considerable powder capacity with a 175 gr. bullet and yet in my experince and contrary to common belief they have all shot the 130 gr. Speer just as well even though the Speer has to take quit a jump..The Brno mod. 21 and 22s are so set up. After much expermentation I have found this works only with H414 and WW760..I use H414 exclusively..

7x57 Long throat and 06 magazine
Lapua or WW brass
Fed 210 primers
175 gr. Nosler or Hornady,
H-414 Powder
Velocity 2864 FPS 10 shots taking our the high and low..trim evey 4th reload and cases last me 12 to 14 loadings..

150 gr. Nosler = 3123 FPS

I did not give the load in grs. as one never knows the reloading skills of the reader but start at book and work up, you will have a long ways to go..

Basically it its the equivelent of a Ackley IMP.

where do you get 7x57 lapua brass? how long is your barrel that you achieve 2800 fps +, with 175 gr. bullets in 7x57?

Ray, I am mighty impressed but also baffled. Do the long throats apply to all BRNO's and or any of the CZ's ? I heard the RWS 175gr load does about 2700fps but cant verify it....

lal I have an old articles by Finn A.He got 2760 fps in his BRNO (23.6" barrel) with Norma's 150 gr load.That load shot well in my Ruger 77 but I don't have a chrony.

Being a fan of the 7 x 57 Mauser among other 7mm chamberings (I load for 6 different chamberings from 7-30 waters to 7mm STW), I could not help but notice this thread on 7 x 57 speeds.

A couple of thoughts.

Being as I do load for several different 7mm’s, I don’t try to turn my fine old Mauser into a 7 Mag.

I’m a meat hunter and I find that chamberings with velocities beginning around 2,800 fps or less do minor meat damage at the ranges at which I shoot.

So with that in mind, 3,100 fps with a 150 gr. bullet out of a 7mm mauser is pretty strong. In fact, about 300 fps faster than anything I would want to do.

As to the 175’s at 2,860, that’s about 400 fps faster than max load out of the Nosler manual using H414 @ 44 grains.


Sierra #5, 7 x 57 Mauser, 150 gr. bullet


Hornady #8, 7 x 57 Mauser, 154 gr. bullet


Barnes #4, 7 x 57 Mauser, 150 gr. bullet


Nosler #6, 7 x 57 Mauser, 150 gr. bullet

I chrono all my loads to determine the combination with which I will be killing with. My Shooting Chrony Beta Master is set up 10’ from the muzzle. Here are a few that I tried last year. I load load Nosler’s out of the Nolser manual. I chose 150 gr. Ballistic Tips over 46 gr. of H460, Federal 210M primers and an OAL of 3.100 as the combo I would use for deer and hogs. As you can see, the measured velocity corresponds reasonably close with the book values.










I know speed is sexy, but in my old age, I’m a fan of safe sex.

Just sayin’………….

Best

GWB

eny,
I probably got the Lapua brass from Huntingtons, but don't remember for sure.

My barrel on this particular test was with a Brno and those barrels are 23.5 as a rule so call it 24 inch..but I tested a 20 inch and wasn't enough difference to worry about..

Geedubya,
I am fully aware of what the books say for H414 in a 7x57..Are you aware how underloaded the books are and why? The reason is becausee of all the many mod 93,95, and 96 Mauser floating around out there, that won't take 98 pressure. But that has no bearing on my minor conversion.

No arguement here, but if you doubt it then you should give it a try, and if your not interested then my posts don't apply to you.

My loads with H414 are much, mush higher than the books quote, but I have not printed them because they would be excessive in a standard chamber and the required deep seated bullets. My pressures are max but safe in my rifles or in any Brno mod. 21 or 22. I am quit sure your rifles have not been modified as mine have and you apparantly have no desire to do so..I'm fine with that.

lal,
Without getting technical, I have no idea about the CZ, as it is only made in Brno, Chex, its not a Brno Rifle, its a CZ rifle..two different rifles..the 21s and 22s were made up to about 1950..most I have owned were 1948 for some reason.
In a standard 7x57 on a good 98 action without my long magazine and throat and without H414 powder it can't be done..about all I could squeeze out of a 175 gr. bullet was 2500 plus a bit FPS and thats substantial and max..

All of this came about to me from the many Brno mod. 21 and 22 rifles I have owned and experimented with and the use of H414 powder..You can duplicate this with an Ackley Improved, but I prefer my way of getting more powder space without changing the caliber. the only thing is I can only get this performance with H414 and WW-760 whereas Ackley can get it with a number of powders according to his book, but then I don't have to change my caliber either.

Its a very acceptable and nice conversion at very little if any cost..I build my 7x57 this way and the owner has a choice of how to load it..Not so with the Ackley.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


Geedubya,
I am fully aware of what the books say for H414 in a 7x57..Are you aware how underloaded the books are and why? The reason is becausee of all the many mod 93,95, and 96 Mauser floating around out there, that won't take 98 pressure. But that has no bearing on my minor conversion.

No arguement here, but if you doubt it then you should give it a try, and if your not interested then my posts don't apply to you.

My loads with H414 are much, mush higher than the books quote, but I have not printed them because they would be excessive in a standard chamber and the required deep seated bullets. My pressures are max but safe in my rifles or in any Brno mod. 21 or 22. I am quit sure your rifles have not been modified as mine have and you apparantly have no desire to do so..I'm fine with that.

10/4 on that.

As I said, just some observations.

I very seldom build or have rifles built. The 7 x 57 I shoot is a Mauser 96, 24" Douglas barrel, bedded, mesquite stock, Timney trigger. I've added the scope. Picked it up for around $450 several years ago.Shoots good enough to kill just about everything it has been pointed at.



I ran into a Winchester 70, Featherweight in 7 x 57 a couple weeks ago. Can't hardly wait to get it in and start playing with it. But I'll probably take it easy on that one too. I reserve the 7STW for ass kickin'.

I enjoy buying factory rifles or something some one else has built at a price point where I can enjoy them and then send them on their way, hopefully making a profit.

The longer I shoot game, the more I am recovering from magnumitis, high maginification scopes and velocity. Consequently I very seldom load above the books, (many times at the middle to lower end of the scale)and for the most part these days, shoot between 2400 and 2800 fps. in the 6.5's through the 9.3's

I do enjoy your posts and the way you express yourself in those posts. Glad to see you back and posting.

GWB

Geedubya,
I looked at a Ruger International manlicher in 7x57 the other day and wow! it was impressive but was sold and I guess they are hard to find and lots of stores are jacking up the prices on them..

Although I play with guns and get the best I can out of them please note that I also have a fondness for 2700 to 2800 FPS in med. bores as most bullets behave themselves at those lesser velocities. Same with my 404 Jefferys I can get 2600 plus FPS in a 27 inch barrel with it and at acceptable pressure, but my hunting load is 2400 FPS with less IMR-4831..

lal, I chronoed the Norma 150 at 2636 fps out of my Mauser and 2657 from my Mod. 70. Both are 22" barrels and both like the Norma offering.

My 22" Douglas barreled 7x57 shoots the Norma 150's between 2680-2710fps depending on the weather/temperature.

Thanks Gentlemen for all the replies, I was hoping for around 2600fps with the 150gr bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
Thanks Gentlemen for all the replies, I was hoping for around 2600fps with the 150gr bullet.

out of my 7x57 with a 25' PacNor select match barrel, I am getting 2730fps with the 175gn RWS. I could not believe it...And very accurate it was too.

what my (limited) experience with my gun has shown is that the 150gn SGK is grouping excellently around 2600fps and perhaps a bit less. I have not been able to reach the loads in the book before I get stiff bolt lifts and cratered primers. My load for N160 for example is 45.7gn and for RL19, 47.8gn. The action of my gun is a Sako L691.

best wishes,

Finman

Hi lal,

I chronographed both.
The 150 NORMA is from a mid-90`s lot. I bought 8 boxes 4 years ago in a sale of a closing Gunshop at Buenos Aires. By the way, it was a 100 years old Gunshop: Pedro Worms....
The boxes said Soft Point Boat Tail, the normalng and classic NORMA 150 grs load. But dismounting one cartridge, as I allways do to weight everything, I found the bullet to be a flat base soft point!!
Anyway, the velocity was 2760 f/s in my Mauser 98 (M35) with a Steyr 1912 barrel, new and unused, of 60 cm (almost 24"). And they are loaded showing maximum safe pressures in this rifle, with a very long free-bore !!!
The RWS cartridges I chronographed were much older. From the 70`s !! But modern ammunition with boxer primers.
173 H-Mantle Cooper Hollow Point: 2520 f/s. Showing normal pressure in that rifle.
An interesting note: I check recently the runout, with a RCBS Case Master tool, of this 40 years old RWS ammo, the green (the RWS colour code for all 7mm cartridges) 10 rounds boxes (I still have 3 boxes ...!). Measuring the runout of all these 30 cartridges, none showed more than 0,002" !!! And the majority showed not more than 0,001" !!!! Amazing...!

PH

PatagonHunter,
That is what I have come to expect out of the long free throats, if you have a magazine that matches the throat then you have, in effect, a 7x57 IMP..I get about from 4 to 8 grs. of additional H414 with that extra powder space depending on bullet weight. I also mic all cases when I am playing around..I don't use hunting loads that have more than .002, however .005 has been defined as suitable max by some magazine articles I have read..?By far the best results I have had have been H414 and hands down the best.

I use the mics, then also pay carefull attention to bolt lift, primer condition, powder rings and cratered primers, and flat smeared primers..but primer inspection seems to vary so much I don't place a lot of importance on it, but I don't ignore it either..

I want to know where max is on every rifle I own, but I don't shoot them at full max. When I find absolute max, I then cut back a grain or two and call it good.

I've found some pretty darn good accuracy in the Ruger 7 x 57s, using a charge of 40 grains of 3031.. with the 160 and 175 grain bullets, even tho the data was from a Hornady manual... my velocity doesn't match theirs..

they claim 2400 fps with a 175 gr RN.... the 22 inch barrel in the Ruger 77 and the Model 70 Featherweight, but gave 2650 fps with that charge and bullet...

which is more than I need when using a 7 x 57...

I load it using powders from SR 4759 to IMR 4064...

my long range deer load is 44 grains of IMR 4895, with a 140 grain ballistic tip or partition...for an MV of 2800 fps..

last deer I took tho with it was a 210 lb blacktail, at about 35 yds, with a heart shot, the load was 28 grains of SR 4759 pushing a 115 grain HP Speer....

Hi Ray,

Yes, I agree. I load my 7x57 cartridges to an OAL to match the long magazine and freebore of the barrel it has. And, yes also, I use a lot more R19 and R22 than the manuals to reach 2750 f/s with 160 grs NP and 2650 f/s with 175 grs NP bullets. Entirely safe velocities/loads in my rifle.

Merry Christmas!

PH

Anybody getting almost 2900 out of a 175 gr 7X57 is either lying,an idiot,or just plain stupid!!!

quote:

Originally posted by KG5EW:
Anybody getting almost 2900 out of a 175 gr 7X57 is either lying,an idiot,or just plain stupid!!!

KG5EW,
These little long throated Brno's are just plain "magical"...
Your'e just sore cause you can barely get 2900 fps out of your 7 Rem. maggie aren't ya..

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:

quote:

Originally posted by KG5EW:
Anybody getting almost 2900 out of a 175 gr 7X57 is either lying,an idiot,or just plain stupid!!!

KG5EW,
These little long throated Brno's are just plain "magical"...
Your'e just sore cause you can barely get 2900 fps out of your 7 Rem. maggie aren't ya..

No,I don't have a 7 mag.
If I wanted 2900 out of a 175 gr 7mm bullet I would though.
I've found that 2800 out of my 7x57's with a 140 do pretty much everything pretty well.

KG5EW,
I was just pulling your leg..
But your original post made me go look up which 7mm/.284 cartridges that get 2900fps with a 175gr. bullet..
Ray said he was using a 175gr. Hornady and 175gr. Nosler PT.
Hornady's max. load in a 7 maggie nets 2900fps..
Nosler's #5 manual max. load in a 7 maggie nets 2970fps..
I use the 175gr Hornady over 47grs. of AA4350 with a OAL of 3.262" in my little Brno..
I haven't chronied it but am thinking going by Accurate Arms manual it is running 2400-2500fps..
Accurate and pleasant to shoot, one of my favorite rifles!

Thanks again for the interesting replies. Has anyone besides Finman chronied the RWS 175gr 7x57 factory load? I believe it to be quite a hottie?

Interesting, check the time of my post....

Hi lal,

Yes, I did as I wrote. The 173 grs H-Mantle(RWS does not make a 175 grs 7mm bullet)reach 2550 in my two 7x57s (actually, 2500 and 2550 respectively).

Merry Christmas!

PH

How would the Woodleigh 160 & 175 PP hold up to these velocities in the long throated chambers and aught six mag well box dimensions? Gonna have on hand enough of them for sometime to come is why I ask.

quote:

Originally posted by grizz007:
How would the Woodleigh 160 & 175 PP hold up to these velocities in the long throated chambers and aught six mag well box dimensions? Gonna have on hand enough of them for sometime to come is why I ask.

Have a look at this link where the 160gn Woodleigh is given a penetration test at these velocities. As I noted in my reply on the NE forum it seems the best velocity in terms of expansion and penetration was about 2700fps where I run them in my 7x57. They held up to the Rem mag's 29oofps velocity very well.

Von Gruff.


The 7x57 with 160 Woodleigh had a muzzle velocity of 2,405 fps
The 7x57 with 154 Hornady Spt Interlock had a muzzle velocity of 2,461 fps
The 7mmRM with 160 Woodleigh had a muzzle velocity of 2,908fps

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post196029

awesome! good link......that 154 must be a very tough bullet as well. thanks.

I have asked this many times:

What is a "long throated" 7x57 ?

Does this imply there are "short throated " 7x57 's and if so who made/ makes them ?

Is the current Ruger ( only factory produced 7x57 in the US) long or short throated ?

So what exactly is a long throated 7x57, inches/ millimeters anyone venture a guess ?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I have asked this many times:

What is a "long throated" 7x57 ?

Does this imply there are "short throated " 7x57 's and if so who made/ makes them ?

Is the current Ruger ( only factory produced 7x57 in the US) long or short throated ?

So what exactly is a long throated 7x57, inches/ millimeters anyone venture a guess ?

The first 7x57 rounds were loaded with a long 173 to 175 gr. bullet and the rifles were throated accordingly. When Rigby chambered rifles to the cartridge which they called a .275 Rigby (can't give a German like Mauser any credit) they made two versions. One had the long throat used for those 173 to 175 gr. bullets and another that had a shorter throat and used IIRC a 140 gr. bullet. You could shoot the 140 gr. bullets in the long throated rifles but could not shoot the longer bullets in the short throated rifles.
I could be wrong but I'm thinking most commercially made rifles here in the U.S. have the long throat. I have two commercial and one custom rifle in 7x57 and they all have the long throat.
FWIW, I get great accuracy with the long and shorter bullets from my rifles.
Paul B.

Nope methinks not.

The 7x57 was not made in two versions, it was only one version and that is the current CIP spec version with it's 19.2mm throat, and it was made for the 173 gr DWM FMJ bullet. Right from get go form the 1893 model to the current CIP spec.

Rigby did call it a 275 and yes they marketed a number one and and number two rifle, the throats and chambering however was done by Mauser and it was one chamber and one throat dimension as per Mauser Spec . The actions and barrels were pure German, the finnishing done by Rigby .

The difference between the Rigby Number one and Number two lies in sight regulation, one is for the 173 gr bullet the number two is for the 140 gr bullet. Rigby did not make or had 275 stamped ammo made, the original rifles were sold with 7x57 marked Eley ammo. I have an original Rigby 275 with a very early SN with all it's bits that came with it including dummy and original ammo.

Perhaps you are referring to the infamous "shortneck" or correctly the "Kortnek 7x53" of the Boer War ? This was not a chambering but batches of ammo with a short Neck that found it's way into the Boer arsenals. The ammo derive from cases used in the loading of the Argentinine 7.65x53 used by DMK and FN to load 7x57 ammo for the Boers in 1895 and 1896. The Boer Rifles however were still chambered in original 7x57 with the "normal" 7x57 throat.

The only really "long throated" 7mm in the German line up is the 7x64 with it's 34mm throat. The vom Hofe 7mm has a 15mm throat.

Modern US derived 7mm's are all "short throated" in keeping with the American propensity to high velocity light bullets.

7mm -08 = 5.24mm
7mmRUM = 8.2mm
7mm WSM = 5.2mm
7mm Rem Mag = 5.11mm
7mmBR = 5.01mm

OK, now if I have a long throat barrel should I load the lighter grain bullets closer to the threads?

oops not threads but lands

Some more info regarding the 7mm Mauser:

It was not a 7mm or 284 as Americans would have it, it's in fact a 7.25mm or 0.2854 cal

The original 1893 and 1895 DWM bullet number 143 was 30.8mm or 4.4 calibers long, it weighed in at 11.2 gram (+/- 173 gr) and was loaded to just a tad more than a caliber length into the case. None of the orginal bullets made by DWM had crimp grooves but some ammo had military style staggered stab crimping on the cases, especially the Kortnek 7mm's because their necks were 4mm shorter and the bullets loaded to the same length as the convnetional 7mm's

Eley copied this load and they added a crimp groove which sits not half way up the bullet as we have in modern American bullets but in the lower 1/3 of the shank, a practice common to long for caliber bullets of the time.

So it stands to reason if one wishes to load close to the lands the 7x57 using modern US bullets with their crimp gooves in the middle of the bullet have to be loaded way out and if it's a 7x64 you will not get a bullet , unless it's a monometal copper or brass bullet that can be loaded close to or into the lands, not with a 34mm throat.

Modern 120 to 140 gr bullets cannot be loaded close to the lands in a 7x57, the throats are too long

Thanks ALF that clears a lot up for me. I have been trying to figure this out for a while now.

Now starting from scratch is there a manufacture that might be able to make a custom chamber die that will decrease the distance to the lands.

I wouldn't mind having 2 7x57s, one for larger heavier bullets and one built for smaller lighter bullets.

A little off subject question. with a 1 in 9 twist barrel does that "over stabilize" smaller lighter bullets?

Overstabilization is non issue in flatfire trajectories.

The problem if you wish is that any barrel made in a CIP signatory country has to me made to the CIP spec , that's unfortunately the law, so modern barrels like Lothar Walther barrels are cut to CIP spec. ie with a 19mm throat. In the US however this does not apply.

You guys are very interesting. While on the subject of throats, please can anyone tell me what throat the CZ 550 in 7x57 has and if I can load it hot. 160gr at 2600fps etc.
Thanks

CZ = 19.2mm as per CIP

Hello,

Very good and solid information by ALF, as usual. Thank you.
By the way, I have one DWM original sportin rifle made on a 1893 action. A lovely gun bought by my Greatgrandfather, who knows where.
It has StmG
2,75 gbp
in the left side of the front receiver ring, meaning as I know Stahlmantel geshcosse = steel covered bullet and the weight of the pwder used. I think was intended and proffed for the 11,2 g bullet. In the chamber section of the barrel, in the lower part there is a "222,5" and a crown. It means the rifling twist, 1 turn in 222,5 mm. Aprox. 1 turn in 8,76".
And the rifle, still in the original rust blue and stock, is in very good shape. The barrel inside, being rather dark but with strong lands, shoot amazingly well!

PH