i know this is gonna start a real hornets nest with the yanks, but here goes!
i"m in the UK, and i"m a deer stalker first and a target shooter second. most of my friends are shooting 6.5,.243,270,308, which are about average for stalkers in the UK. our biggest deer are reds, and 270/308 is pretty good medicine, with a lot falling to the lowly .243 as well.
what i"m geting to is the .30-06. it"s not that common here, being seen as bigger than what we need for roe, fallow,muntjac and so on.
i"ve only ever shot three .30-06 rifles. two were remy"s, and i think one was a savage.
they were all medium/sporting profile barrels, and none of them would group better than about three inches at 100 yds(with a variety of ammo)
they also heated up very quickly, causing stringing of shots.
a friend of mine just sold a remy 700 in 30-06, and bought a .308, and it beats his 06 hands down.
is the .30-06 harder to shoot? are they just not as accurate? were these a bad example of this calibre? i know the Americans love them,
so i expect some passionate responses!
good shooting!

Without knowing more information it's hard to say why those rifles weren't more accurate. As a general rule 30-06's are very accurate. I have a Remington 7600 carbine that I can usually get 1-1.25" groups and my son gets .75" groups with the same rifle. Also as a general rule 308's will usually beat 30-06's in the accuracy department. For the size of game you have over there you would probably be well served with a 308 or even better a 7mm-08.

I've had three rifles in 30-06. All three shot sub MOA at 100 yds with factory ammo, and I by no means consider myself a superior marksman. Not sure why the three you shot were not very accurate. Could have been any number of problems. Hard to tell!

The 30-06 was for many years the target caliber here because of its use by the armed forces. It is probably one of the best balanced rounds in the world along with the 8mm and 9.3. It has lost favor with the target shooter because the .308Win target rifles have less recoil. As a hunting round, it is the one to which all others are compared. So it is accurate.

I'd suggest a loading of about 57gr of 4350 behind a 180gr bullet of good quality. This should launch from a 22-24 inche barrel at @ 2700-2800fps. My rifle will shoot sub-MOA groups, but it is a custom built rifel.

I would be surprised it I could not get a 30-06 to shoot 1.25-1.5"groups at 100yds. Kudude

When I first started hunting, I bought a 30-06. I didn't put a lot of thought into it, because I knew that it was the most popular cartridge in the US, and that it was suitable for all North American game.

I've since learned that unless elk, moose, or bear are on the menu, it is really more gun than you need. If you're not hunting those, an '06 has too much recoil to be fun to shoot very much. You're better off with a milder round, because you'll practice more, and be more proficient.

I do have two of them. One does 1.25" five-shot groups, and the other does .75" five-shot groups. Neither is any kind of special target rifle. It is a terrific round, but just a little too much "bang" for pleasantly burning through 100 rounds at the range.

The .30-06 is as good as any .30 cal I own. It's better than my .300 Win Mag and equal to my .300 H&H in accuracy and that's comparing it to a couple very fine rifles.

Further it has a lot of energy and is also unbelievably light. If someone has the belief that the old .30-06 is not accurate I wonder what kind of bullets they was shooting in them. WWII ammunition wasn't exactly match grade and 3" groups was often considered excellent. Using modern bullets 1" groups are achievable with most of the .30-06s.

Would you take bets on it over the .303 British???

I reckon the .308 for heavy barrelled rifles and the 30/06 for hunting weight barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
The 30-06 was for many years the target caliber here because of its use by the armed forces. It is probably one of the best balanced rounds in the world along with the 8mm and 9.3. It has lost favor with the target shooter because the .308Win target rifles have less recoil. As a hunting round, it is the one to which all others are compared. So it is accurate.

I'd suggest a loading of about 57gr of 4350 behind a 180gr bullet of good quality. This should launch from a 22-24 inche barrel at @ 2700-2800fps. My rifle will shoot sub-MOA groups, but it is a custom built rifel.

I would be surprised it I could not get a 30-06 to shoot 1.25-1.5"groups at 100yds. Kudude

My brother and I shoot 180 grains ahead of 57.5 grains of H-4350 lit by federal 210 primers my brothers 30-06 a winchester model 70 factory stock rifle chronographs 2800 fps. My 30-06 a pre-64 model 70 with a 26-1/4" barrel work done by Jack Huntington This rifle crongraph's, 2905fps with this load.

Brass Thief,

you must have been rather unfortunate to get those three badly shooting rifles.

Get an old Husqvarna 1640 or Sako in .30-06 with a good scope, and you will target most series MOA at 100 yards. I have had such an old Huskie in .30-06 and it performed very well with Norma factory ammo or handloads. But it really disliked Winchester ammo, which didn't group tighter than 6 inches! I suppose that it was a bad batch of ammo, as my other experiences with that brand are positive.

Here in Sweden the .30-06 is the most common cartridge for rifles beside the 6,6x55, but often considered a bit "boring". As the .308, it has the advantage of an immense choice of bullets for reloading.

I have recently bought an old Sako Mauser for this cartridge. However, I am considering to rechamber it to a .308 Norma or .30 super (i.e. .300H&H), as I can't go stalking with such a boring rifle. Perhaps i'm wrong - I'll give it a try before making anything.

Regards,

Fritz

I am waiting for my new Remington CDL LH 30-06 rifle to arrive here from the US and will take it to Sweden this fall for Moose(Elk), wilboar and roedeer hunt.
Never heard the old 06 was inaccurate!

my friend tried 125 grain,150, and 165 in his remy 700-30.06, but the best he could get was 2-3" groups. also, after 2 shots, the barrel needed to cool for a few minutes or it would throw the 3rd shot off.
to tame the recoil, he had it threaded and fitted a T8 suppressor. this made overheating worse, and i now have his suppressor on my .243.
i believe that suppressors ruin accuracy as well, so this was a bit unfair on the 06.
(my .243 shoots far better without the suppressor, although it still has it"s uses)
a .308 is far more pleasant to shoot, and therefore easier to shoot well. there are probably lots of people(esp Americans) who have used this calibre for years, and are very proficient with it.
here in the UK, we don"t really need the energy generated by the 06. there is still a "die hard" core of .270 users, who mostly shoot red and sika deer, or hill stalkers who shoot at longer ranges, but generally the .308 is the biggest thing we need.
another factor could be that we never used the 06 as a miliary cartridge, but we did have the 308/7.62 in the fal/slr(the best infantry rifle ever!), so we may have a "relationship" with the 308, whereas the 06 is lesser known.
i was just curious about the 06, as the examples i have seen did not impress me at all.

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
my friend tried 125 grain,150, and 165 in his remy 700-30.06, but the best he could get was 2-3" groups. also, after 2 shots, the barrel needed to cool for a few minutes or it would throw the 3rd shot off.


a .308 is far more pleasant to shoot, and therefore easier to shoot well. there are probably lots of people(esp Americans) who have used this calibre for years, and are very proficient with it.
here in the UK, we don"t really need the energy generated by the 06.



i was just curious about the 06, as the examples i have seen did not impress me at all.

YOUR FRIEND SIMPLY has an inaccurate rifle.The chambering is not the proglem. A properly built and bedded 30-06 is just as accurate as any other chambering I have owned many different rifles chambered in 30-06 over theyears that shot under 1 moa. My present 30-06 shoots 1/4"moa. This rifle has a 26 1/4" Kreiger barrel.Plus as stated in my previus post is quite fast for a 30-06

Don't kid yourself about the accuracy capabilities of the .30-06. A good man with a good rifle in this caliber can win every marble you've got before you know what's happened. The '06 has been used in times past to win a great many target shooting championships, and has taken countless hunting trophies of every single, huntable (an non-huntable) big game species in the world.

It's accuracy potential is astounding, and the .30-06 is likely the least fussy, least tempermental centerfire rifle cartridge ever invented, and it was developed at great U.S. Govt. expense to not only operate at reasonable pressures under all climatic conditions, but to produce superb accuracy, plus sufficient power and accuracy with a recoil level that is workable for most riflemen -- even the inexperienced. Even the ultra-smooth, effortless way it feeds out of the magazine is no accident, but a carefully-calculated design feature.

The .308 was developed in order to come up with a lighter .30 caliber military cartridge that would approximate .30-06 ballistics, but function better in semi-automatic rifles that were lighter to carry than the old M-1 Garand that the .30-06 was used in. The resulting effort sort of flopped, because the new M-14 that was introduced around 1957 ended up almost as heavy as the old Garand. But, .308 (7.62 Nato) ammo was indeed lighter for soldiers to carry.......

As a hunting round for a bolt-action rifle, in my experience the .30-06 beats the .308 in all ways, and is less fussy about powders, loads, and pressures to boot. I've owned many .30-06 rifles that were 1/2 MOA guns, and I once fired two 5-shot groups back to back at 100 yds. out of stock Remington 700 Classic with a 4X Leupold on top that measured .450" and .350" respectively. The Ought-Six will shoot......

Amoung other honors -- and lest the world forget -- the old .30 Govt. '06 has also been used with great effect and distinction to largely bail the sorry a$$es of most of Europe from oppresssion and destruction during two world wars. Isn't it funny how those countries hate the U.S. now???????????????

AD

I have owned many .30-06 rifles and currently own four very fine ones. I have never had any difficulty with accuracy, velocity, feeding or pressure excursions with this cartridge and usually obtain .6" average groups at 100 yds. with ALL of my rifles so chambered. I think that the .06, the .375 H&H and the .450 Nitro are still the very best rifle cartridges ever invented and anyone who badmouths the .06 is demonstrating a lack of personal knowledge/experience.

I kinda doubt that the American contribution to the Allied effort in WWI or WWII has/had anything political to do with the magnificent .06; it is just that there seems to be a huge number of fuckin' assholes in positions of power and influence in most Euro nations today. Fugem all, we of the British Commonwealth with our American brothers can/will kick the crap out of ANY coalition or single nation that needs it, any old time they wanna boogie!!!!

I handload every thing I own. I have found that each rifle has its likes and dislikes of powder.
What you have to do if you don't reload is try different makes of shells like Rem or Win just to name a few. Until you find the shells your rifle likes. Thats why your group is so large. My 30/06 shoots a 1/2 to 3/4 group at 200 yds.

I think 90% of accuracy is the gun, 9% is the load/bullet, 1% is the caliber. MHO


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Brass Thief:

06's shoot, I have rarely picked up an 06 even and old ragged on that won't shoot 2.5. And most are considerably better than that. Groups than Allen and Kutenay have posted are real world expectations, a sporter wieght 06 should shoot 1.25 MOA. So the question is what is causing your lousy groups? Are you reloading the ammo? Are you making some error on case or cartridge length? If your buying ammo are you using crappy Mil-surp ammo? There were some really poor lots of ammo made outside the US and these were the most recently available ammo. If ammo isn't the problem are you recoil shy? If that's not the answer what is wrong with your rifle?

US Government testing of 30-06 M-72 issue of 1966 ( the last year it was produced ) was 2.2" mean radius. The was out of the Lake City Army Plant. Yes the .308 is currently around 1.73" but manufacturing technics, the shorter powder column, and lower velocity are in the 308's favor.

Allen, The M-14 was part of the consideration when developing the 308, but the I believe the cyclic rate of full auto machine guns had more limitations on the ultimate case length of the 308 than the M14. We hear a lot of argueing about bolt throw length on this board, with bolt rifles where it is a trivial issue, but when working with full auto's this has a profound effect on the the rate of fire capabilities, and makes designing machine guns ( and semi auto rifles )much more difficult propsition.

Trivia aside, if your having this much trouble with your 30-06 look to what your doing wrong, cause the 30-06 didn't get to the status of a world class round by accident, it earned it the hard way by acceptance of thousands of hunters on virtually every continent. With the kind of performance your getting the 06 would have been a side note of history at best.

allen day,

Amen to all that brother! I can't elaborate any further, you said it all quite well...

quote:

we of the British Commonwealth with our American brothers can/will kick the crap out of ANY coalition or single nation that needs it, any old time they wanna boogie!!!!

Thanks, Kutenay, at least one old vetraan
( me ) appreacites your support.

schromf,

I must correct only one thing in your statement...

"Trivia aside, if your having this much trouble with your 30-06 look to what your doing wrong, cause the 30-06 didn't get to the status of a world class round by accident, it earned it the hard way by acceptance of thousands of hunters on virtually every continent. With the kind of performance your getting the 06 would have been a side note of history at best."

I'd bet "millions"...

schromf,
my friend was using soft point ammo by federal,norma and sako. at that time neither of us were reloading, so we did not have the facility to play around. i"m now a total convert to reloading/handloading, and i"m firing off any factory rounds i have just to get the brass!.
as i said in my original post, my friend has traded his 06 for a 308 so it"s only a matter of interest now anyway.
i"m not "bad mouthing" the 06, i"m just going on the few rifles i"ve seen, and i"m unlikely to ever need one anyway as i bought a new 308 about a year ago that"s plenty gun for anything i need. i"m hoping to get back to Canada in the next couple of years to hunt elk or moose, and i"d happily take on either with the 308.
i knew this topic would get people motivated!

It sounds like the stock warped and pressed on the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
there seems to be a huge number of fuckin' assholes in positions of power and influence in most Euro nations today. Fugem all, we of the British Commonwealth with our American brothers can/will kick the crap out of ANY coalition or single nation that needs it, any old time they wanna boogie!!!!

Seems like we did some boogie-ing not too long ago and brass thief's country came through in flying colors. Where was your country, kutenay? "Brothers" don't mind exchanging hunting rights which you have recently said you are opposed to

quote:

Now, you need to realize that there is a rapidly growing shift in popular opinion in B.C. concerning foreign hunters like you, and the media find this an interesting source of frequent stories. NO government official concerned with wildlife and foreign use thereof in B.C. will buck the media,so, a quiet tip and, bingo, a huge media brou ha ha.....equals a rapid change in what said official will do.

So, I have a number of friends in both resource management agencies and in the media and I have the family background and credibilty, as well as the support of many B.C. hunters, to very probably see to it that a formal complaint about a foreign hunter's behaviour got his license denied. I don't want your kind here, it's MY Province and if you consider that arrogant, too fuckin' bad, stay home. Capeche?

your quote from previous post. Your experience with guns and hunting have credence here, but not your political statements.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
i know this is gonna start a real hornets nest with the yanks, but here goes!
i"m in the UK, and i"m a deer stalker first and a target shooter second. most of my friends are shooting 6.5,.243,270,308, which are about average for stalkers in the UK. our biggest deer are reds, and 270/308 is pretty good medicine, with a lot falling to the lowly .243 as well.
what i"m geting to is the .30-06. it"s not that common here, being seen as bigger than what we need for roe, fallow,muntjac and so on.
i"ve only ever shot three .30-06 rifles. two were remy"s, and i think one was a savage.
they were all medium/sporting profile barrels, and none of them would group better than about three inches at 100 yds(with a variety of ammo)
they also heated up very quickly, causing stringing of shots.
a friend of mine just sold a remy 700 in 30-06, and bought a .308, and it beats his 06 hands down.
is the .30-06 harder to shoot? are they just not as accurate? were these a bad example of this calibre? i know the Americans love them,
so i expect some passionate responses!
good shooting!

The .30/'06 is NOT as inherently accurate as the .308, (those who questioon this need to explain why the .308 has even been used as a competitive bench-rest round, but the '06 has not!!) but a good one will sure beat 3" @ 100 yards! Many a Wimbledom Cup (20 shots at 1,000 yards) has been won with the .30/'06, so they can be accurate if loaded properly.

And, I agree that the old '06 is more rifle than you need in the U.K for your larger game animals. The ones you use are certainly adequate-BUT, if you shoot a red stag with a .30/'06 and then one with a .308, in the exact same spot at the exact same range with the same bullets, you will NOT be able to tell which is which merely by examining the wound channels - they will be the same!

I suppose that I should have expected a comment like that, considering the source. My country is now and has been in Afganistan and there is also a Canadian presence in the Iraq situation, albeit not what I have repeatedly posted I would prefer to see. Your comments about "sharing" are simply irrelevant in this context in that they are subjective and do not bear on the issue I posted, except in your rather confused mind.

As to "credence", you are entitled to your own opinion, but, I am not really interested in distorting this thread by engaging in a shit-slinging match with you. So, go have a brewski and calm yourself down.

Just don't refer to us as your American brothers and we won't have a problem.

I haven't fired the .30-'06 competitvely, so I can't comment on its inherent accuracy, but I think it's pretty well established that shorter powder columns are a bit more accurate than longer ones. That shouldn't cause the issues you noted, however, as I'm describing accuracy differences that are only noticeable to competitive shooters. I do think it's unneccesarily powerful for the hunting I do, however - North American deer and elk. I find it more pleasant to hunt, and practice, with lighter calibers. The .308 would be fine, I believe, but at present I'm working with the 7mm-08 and the 6.5X55.

jaywalker

I own 3 .30-06' rifles now and have owned a total
of 7 in this caliber and have never had an inaccurate one.I even had a very rough looking
mauser that had been rebarreled. I honestly was embarrased to be seen with that shot 1 1/2
groups.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
I haven't fired the .30-'06 competitvely, so I can't comment on its inherent accuracy, but I think it's pretty well established that shorter powder columns are a bit more accurate than longer ones. That shouldn't cause the issues you noted, however, as I'm describing accuracy differences that are only noticeable to competitive shooters. I do think it's unneccesarily powerful for the hunting I do, however - North American deer and elk. I find it more pleasant to hunt, and practice, with lighter calibers. The .308 would be fine, I believe, but at present I'm working with the 7mm-08 and the 6.5X55.
jaywalker

I'm not surprised, I've been using the 7mm-08 for three years now and find myself going to it more frequently. Very capable cartridge with a lot less fuss.

Woods, you are RIGHT, I have quite a number of first cousins living in the USA, some born there and others born here in Canada, so, I should actually refer to my American cousins. As it happens, my mother was born, of Canadian parents in Black Bear Gulch, Idaho and my paternal Grandfather was born in Milwaukee, WI. and I am, generally very pro-American.....but......

As far as ...problems....are concerned, look in a mirror.

YOU know I don't think I will ever buy another 30/06 in this lifetime.......

Why should I?????

I own 6 of them now, and every one is an excellent shooter, and capable of anything I will ever ask of it......

It is not my first rifle to take out in the field by a long shot, as I love to mess around with different calibers, bullet weights, velocities etc..... HOwever if I have a job I need to get done without any thought, hassle or worrying... I just grab a 30/06 and just ' get 'her done!"

cheers
seafire

quote:

my .243 shoots far better without the suppressor, although it still has it"s uses

here in the UK, we don"t really need the energy generated by the 06.

If your T8 spoils the accuracy of your 243 it has been badly fitted - probably a poor threading job.

Poor accuracy from your friends rifles is not related to the cartridge other than if the barrels heated up that badly they must have been quite lightweight at which point I would suspect recoil being a contributory factor.

I have been a fan of intermediate smaller bore cartridges such as the 243, 6.5x55 and 7x57 for years. They were and are all I needed, can kill anything in the UK, shoot flat and still be soft on the shoulder.

Where the 270 and 30-06 come into their own is versatility, factory ammunition availability and longer range performance on bigger game. The 30-06 has a greater range of factory ammunition (125gr and 220gr)availability than 308.

I am just about to take delivery of a 30-06, this happened not because I wanted the calibre but because I wanted the rifle it came in. I don't need the power in the south of England for which I intend to work up a 130gr hornady soft point at 2,800fps ie the same as a 7x57.

I own 6 of the 06's, and not a single one is a dud. I'm not saying it's the best either, only that it is among the best and deservedly so. Of the ones I've seen that didn't shoot well all had stock/barrel/sight, or some type of physical damage.
I have an FN Mauser, pre-'64 M-70, 03-A3, M-1, and a couple of junkers, all shoot well and the first two shoot under MOA.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned (I didn't see it anyway) is the fact that the '06 has more potential for the reloader than most other cartridges -especially in a rifle that isn't already pushing the century mark. Remember that it is loaded at lower pressures than most, and in a modern gun that potential can be readily unleashed. One can not push a .308 or .270 much harder with out running into trouble.
What you have in the -06 is this: a hunting rifle and a varmint rig -all in one neat package. The potential is there -unleash it.

The 30-06 is a great all around cartridge (at least for the Planet Earth), well suited for all types of game. The manufacturers don't push it and load it to its potential, because they WANT TO SELL MORE GUNS. That's how they stay in business - selling guns. New overrated calibers appeals to those of us who must have the latest and greatest - a great sales gimmick! Go back, look at the history of all the cartridges. Every 10-15 years, they introduce a new set of calibers that are "superior" to the old - BULLSHIT! Now we all have to have the "new" stubbies, because they're more accurate - give me a break. I hope you all don't fall for this BS.

I really don't think for North America they have really introduced any new calibers since 1925 that were really any better than what was already in existance...
I like certain calibers made after 1925, but like a heck of a lot more of the ones made before 1925!

It still all boils down to shot placement with a matching bullet to the game you are going after....

cheers
seafire

seafire,

I'm with you!! The only rifle chambering I have that is "modern" is a .338 Win Mag (cartridge circa 1958). It's my poor man's substitute for a .333 Jeffery. Those are a little hard to find! All of my other rifles are chambered for cartridges that are pre-1914 (pre World War I) even though the rifles themselves are of recent/modern manufacture.

6.5x55
.30-06
8x57JS
.338 Win Mag
9.3x62
.375 H&H
.416 Rigby
.470 NE

Maybe not a perfect battery but not bad!


brass thief,

I have two rifles in .30-06. Both happen to be Ruger M77 MkII's. They both shoot reasonably well; both will do around 1.0" to 1.25" at 100 yards if I do my part. That's good enough for me and I don't claim to be the best rifle shot around. Both rifles have been glass bedded, lugs lapped, etc. with a Rifle Basix trigger installed.

There's nothing really wrong with the .30-06. I suspect if a particular rifle in .30-06 won't shoot reasonable groups, then it probably needs a trip to the gunsmith (unless one can do the work himself) for a little tuning up.

-Bob F.

I agree with you that the 30-06 is more powerful than needed for the game you shoot.

Here in the US it's the standard "do everything" cartridge, with a greater variety of bullet weights and types loaded for it than any other. There is no game species native to North America that has not been taken successfully many times with 30-06 rifles. As someone said, "The 30-06 works. Period." But if it is not widely available where you are, there's no need to pine for one.

Most 30-06 rifles are, or can be made to be, very accurate, although out-of-the-box 308s often tend to be somewhat more accurate.

The 30-06 was also, arguably, the greatest military small-arms caliber ever adopted anywhere at any time by any country. Its only disadvantages are that it kicks more than some shooters appreciate or can handle well, and its ammunition is bulky and heavy for soldiers who wanted/needed to carry a large quantity of it.

As several people point out, our ancient service cartridge has too good of a track record to be guilty of the crimes you mention. On the other hand, our ancient gunmakers have a track record that might lead one to believe they have dumped a few less-than-perfect rifles on foriegn soil.


Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:

All of my other rifles are chambered for cartridges that are pre-1914 (pre World War I) even though the rifles themselves are of recent/modern manufacture.

6.5x55
.30-06
8x57JS
.338 Win Mag
9.3x62
.375 H&H
.416 Rigby
.470 NE

Maybe not a perfect battery but not bad!

You're missing one! A 7x57 !

And you're missing a second one, a 22-250.

Yep! I had a 7x57 but I gave it to a friend. I'll have to pick up another one one of these days.

-Bob F.