I like the short .308 length rounds.
But I am beginning to see why the .338 fed and.358 win never caught on.
Not trying to knock anyone's pet round here , but , the .308 itself is in my eyes much more useful.
I had a .358 for awhile in a lever gun. Good hard hitting round , but anything i would hunt with the .358 i would just as happy with the .308.
and with out actually doing the research i am of the opinion that after about 250 more or less yards . the .308 will likely pass its bigger bullet brothers in energy.
About the only time i would prefer the. Bigger bullet cousins would be thick woods black bear.
Now necking the case down to .260 (can't see why that one is not more popular) gives you extremely close to .270 performance from a short action. Seems to me if you want a bullet much bigger than a .308 you might be wise to opt for a bigger case too. ...tj3006

For the lower 48 I don't see why cartridge designing didn't stop with the 8mmX57 and 7mmX57. roger

We can't change history, but I would have been more satisfied if we had legitimized the
7/08 before (even instead of) the .308 (we already had more than enough .30 cartridges), and followed it with the .338 Federal rather than the .358 Winchester (we already had the .35 Remington, the .35 Winchester, and the .348 Winchester which are just as good for the same kind of hunting). And to put that in perspective, I currently own more than 10 .308's and have owned a half-dozen .358s including broth bolt and lever guns. So I am not speaking from being ignorant of .308 and .358 capabilities.

I loved my 260 Rem (Kimber Montana)--till my girlfriend stole it and won't give it back---

I think the 7,08 is a good round but so close to the .308 ,the difference is pretty much on paper.
I have had i think 3 .308s I think the recoil is a little less. But the .308 kick is nothing for a grown man to worry about either.
...tj3006

Its pretty hard to beat a .308 its as good as the 30-06 up to 150 or perhaps 165 gr. bullets and it gives up very little to the 180s. gives up a lot with 200 and 220 gr. bullets. I would much prefer the 06 and the 200 gr. bullets for stuff bigger than deer, but that's just speaking for myself.

I only question the need for a short action unless its in a Savage 99 or its ilk.A short bolt? the difference is sure overplayed. I suggest that those that profess a 308 size bolt action has any advantage over a 30-06 length action can't chew gum and walk at the same time..

Short stroking a bolt action is more of a perceived event than an actual event I hope, and if you do that once in your lifetime your probably better off playing checkers or hopscotch and give up the hunting thingie!

Ray , i would agree with the short stroking part, I like the short rounds cause the use less powder and the short action rifles are lighter and handier.
But the longer ones give more velocity. Something about the model 7 rem compact model 70 , and a few others i like . But they are no better at killing game....tj3006

I'm pretty much in the same school as Ray in that I never really understood all the hoopla and hype about the shorter action.

There's a somewhat similar discussion taking place on another board, about the sufficiency of the 308 as a game cartridge. I truly believe that for deer sized game that once you get to or go over 120-150 grs. of bullet weight, about 25 caliber and about 2200 fps one honestly has all that is needed for deer inside 200-250 yards....which probably encompasses 95% of the deer taken. The numbers can be juggled as to caliber, bullet weight and velocity so maybe the fpe numbers are an adequate comparison in this instance.

Reference the 308, is it a good....no, FINE cartridge? Of course it is. It also bores me to tears because it is SO common and popular, but then I am a contrarian. It is common and popular simply because it is manageable and effective. Don't know if much more can be asked....but I'll never own one.

I've got 3 .308s, a .358 and a 7-08 for short actions at the moment. My go to rifle is the .308 in a 7600 carbine for whitetail deer in the northeast and Canada. Loved the .358 BLR for a while and still playing with the 7-08 Xblt trying to decide... I agree that .308 is near perfect for many applications but then so is my .270 and 338-06. I don't have an 06 at this time but if I did that would be the 'most' perfect. I mostly like vanilla ice cream but at times want maple walnut or cookie dough. nice to have lots of choices...

You asked for opinions on the 308 case necked up to 338 and 358. I'm likely going to ruffle a few feathers with my comments. Perhaps I should apologize now.I am not deliberately trying to upset anyone but I think some as missing the whole point. I would agree that the 308 is a very useful cartridge. I have a couple of them but I can't really call one my go to rifle. In most cases I would grab a 30-06. However when you start shooting game bigger than deer there are some very usefull cartridges based on the 308 case. I do not have any experience with a 338 Fed but it should work just fine on elk & moose at reasonable ranges. Some may want to call that "in thick timber" I do have experience with the 358 Win.My first was one of the original Sav 99 Fwts. What a sweet little rifle. I have since built a custom 358 on a Tikka 55 action and I just love that little rifle in the bush. For those who claim the 7mm-08 and 308 have as much stopping power as a 358 clearly have never used the 358 on big game.In my opinion the 358 really shines with 225 gr bullets but the 250s are great as well. The 225 can be pushed to 2500 ft/sec for about 3100 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Not sure how anyone could confuse that with a 35 Rem pushing a 200 gr bullet at about 2000 ft/sec. Those 2 cartridges are clearly in different classes. If you have a nice broadside shot yes a 308 or a 7mm08 will put a 150 to 180 gr bullet into the lungs. However more often than not you don't get that nice clear broadside shot. You often have a quartering shot where that bullet has to penetrate heavy muscle and bone on a front shoulder or go through the paunch to get into the lungs. That is where that heavier 35 cal bullet out penetrates lighter bullets and will make it into the lungs and frequently exit. The 35 cal hole (s) let out a lot of blood. I am speaking from about 35 yrs experience with the 358 on moose and elk. I admit the 358 is a "niche" calibre. Your 308, 30-06, 280,270 and your magnums all shoot flatter (and lord knows there are lots out there that think they are going to get that trophy at 400 + rds. You maybe don't need this much power for deer and small game but for elk, moose and bears in thick bush there are few calibres better. The 350 Rem , 35 Whelen and the Imp version and the 9.3x62 are all similar cartridges that offer a little more ballistically and will reach out a little further but they come with a little more recoil as well. For ranges up to 200-250 yds the 358 is a great calibre. Anyone I know who has actually used one on game will never be without one.

Snow man your not ruffling my feathers any.
And if a was not lazy when it comes to computers.
I would research this and find out , but i bet somewhere short of your 250 yard mark , the .308 passes the .358 in power.
Certainly the heavy bullet hits harder up close , but a good .308 caliber bullet of 165 grains say a Barnes or a partition Should go
through an elk at 250 yards ,
If i want a bigger bullet than .308 , i want a bigger case than .308 win.
I love the .338 win. 225 grain slug at about 2850.
Certainly the .358 and the .338 are useful. But to me you said it well when you said niche.
But Far sledge hammer brush hunting i like the Marlin 4570...

Bullets are like engines in that "there is no substitute for cubic inches". Likewise, "there is no substitute for bullet weight and diameter".

tjroberts You are not getting my point. When shooting larger game a larger calibre heavy bullet will out penetrate a lighter faster bullet. The larger cal bullet also has more stopping power than the kinetic energy alone would suggest. As for your paper ballistics, according to the Nosler manual the 358 Win will push the 225 gr partition to 2500 ft/sec muzzle velfor 3140 ft/lbs. @ 100yds vel is 2305 for 2640 ft/lbs.@ 200 vel is2119 ft/sec for 2250 ft/lbs. @ 300 yds vel is down to 1941 and energy is 1900 ft/lbs. The 308 with the 165 gr partition can be pushed to close to 2900 ft/sec for almost 3100 ft/lbs. @ 100yds vel is 2669 for 2600 ft/lbs. 200 yds vel is 2449 for 2190 ft/lbs and 300 yds velis down to 2239 for 1840 ft/lbs. So while they are close your 308 with a 165 gr partition does not catch up. And if that bullet has to penetrate a moose's front shoulder to get into the lungs my money is going to be on the heavier bullet in the 358.
And yes at close range the 45-70 is quite a stopper as well. In a strong action a 300 gr bullet can be loaded to over 2200 ft/sec for about 3300 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. But because of the low BC @ 100 yds that bullet is down to about 1800 ft/sec and energy has dropped to about 2150 ft/lbs. The 45-70 is still very effective at those modest energy levels because of the large wound channel it creates . Big holes let out a lot of blood !

FPE as calculated by bullet, powder and ammo companies to indicate "power" is a very poor comparison of what a bullet is actually capable of or how effective it is. It's just a number from a mathematical formula and not a very accurate one.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3 X 75R:
It is common and popular simply because it is manageable and effective.

A major reason for the large acceptance of the .308 cartridge is that it was USA military. Reference if you will the modest popularity of the .300 Savage which was on the scene long before the .308.
Personally I think the 7.62x51(.308) and the original heavy infantry rifle were a poor contemporary showing; another product of economic driven committee design. JMHO roger

Whitetails are still the most commonly hunted "big game" in the US. Maybe pigs are creeping up. Whatever. There is simply no crying need for mediums for either....now more than ever, thanks to better projos. So even if I insist on full penetration and adequate blood trail I can select a TSX or partition for the .243 to .300. Not that the average Maine deer hunter would know a TSX from a Chevy camaro even if they could find them on the shelf at Jonny's Hardware and Variety. All this just means mediums languish on the gunstore racks.

What about moose? Here in ME the vast majority of moose tags are filled by natives using their sub-8mm deer rifles. .30-30s are well represented. Sad to say (I guess), they work just fine - typical distances and tenacity of moose such as they are. Maybe the animals die of humiliation.

Those who post here are apt to be hunters of more/bigger stuff. Just as important, they are gun cranks. Hence the interest in mediums. But around here a .35 Rem is a medium.

I keep trying to convince myself to replace the .375 I sold. I think about that neat BLR takedown and the .358. Then I wonder, what will it do that the .308 version won't? And what would that do that something I already own won't? Dang, that rational part of my brain keeps derailing the medium express.

Am I gonna lose my man-card over this?

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I only question the need for a short action unless its in a Savage 99 or its ilk.A short bolt? the difference is sure overplayed. I suggest that those that profess a 308 size bolt action has any advantage over a 30-06 length action can't chew gum and walk at the same time..

Short stroking a bolt action is more of a perceived event than an actual event I hope, and if you do that once in your lifetime your probably better off playing checkers or hopscotch and give up the hunting thingie!

I'll start with the short stroking - I used to be of the same opinion until I did it myself.... As luck has it, it happened on the range. I felt immensly stupid and have since followed Jeff Cooper's advice: Be vigorous with the bolt!
You can't break the gun by over-zealous bolt use.
That said, I dare claim that no-one used to a partcilar gun or caliber will short stroke it. This was also a case of an unfamiliar gun. Since I moved to the .30-06 it hasn't happened since.

However - the real issue with reagrds to the long viz. short action is how the rifle itself feels and handles!
This was very well illustrated when my friend was buying his first rifle. On my advice, he was keen on the .30-0. However, when handling similar guns in .30-06 and .308 (a Sako 75), it became obvious how small, well-balanced and agile the .308 is. In comparison, the .30-06 felt like an oar and was ill balanced, indeed. Later I read Bell and I fully appreciate his views on the sweet Mannlicher and Rigby rifles.
It may not appear that about 1" in length ill actually matter, but it does make a world of difference.
This is the reason why I'd actually prefer a short action rifle.

Why did I choose the .30-06? Global availability from Zimbabwe to Ukraine to Finland to Idaho (my experience) plus I like the extra flexibility it can offer if handloaded.
That said, if the .338 Fed were a little bit more commonplace, I probably would have chosen it.
Due to a personal allergy towards the .308 I wouldn't choose it.

- Lars/Finland

The long and short action to me is just a matter or preference. I like both. I just prefer a velocity of something like 2800 at the muzzle.
That being in a general purpose rifle.
I don't plan on shooting an animal in the rear unless its wounded already.
Any one who thinks the .308 is not a good hunting round is plain Wrong.
Maybe not the best for a particular hunt. Not an ideal antelope round. But for deer elk And black bear inside 300 yards, i would be very happy , to take a .308.
I have an 06 and a .338 win as well as 3 .257 roberts . And have taken game with those and many others rounds.
The.308 works just fine if you put the bullet where its supposed to go !...Those who like the fatter stubbies are are not wrong , just have a different point of view.
I have owned a .358 win and liked it pretty well. (savage 99) but for me, the same rifle in .308 is more versatile... tj3006

Samuel, I hope you don't lose your man card!! I wouldn't think your post a grave enough offense.....lol! I do have a question for you, however. As of when did being rational have anything to do with rifle and cartridge selection?....lol!

Having spent some considerable time in Maine, long years ago, hunting, fishing, XC skiing and various other activities I understand your comment about the comparison between a TSX and a Camaro. The same could be said of many in the Ozarks.

Schaukis, I have a 1903 M/S in its original 6.5 X 54...sweet is the first word that comes to mind. I also have a couple pre-war and pre-WWI Mauser sporters, both in long actions, obviously, and the same word comes to mind....and both Mausers are in a 9mm: 9 X 57 and 9 X 71 Peterlongo. The M/S is handier obviously, but isn't that much more so than the J.P. Sauer in 9 X 57. The Peterlongo Mauser is some bit longer than the Sauer so it could not actually be called "handy" but oh what a cartridge the 9 X 71 Peterlongo is!!!!

As compared to the 308, for MY uses I would take the 9 X 57 over it. However, the 358 WCF will exceed velocities and energies of the 9 X 57 by some small amount, depending on the particular rifle.

I'm not sure what the OP is looking for really?
If you are setting out to buy one rifle, the .308 would be my choice of the .308 family.
But to try and say it will do everything as well as bigger or smaller calibers on the case is, well, wrong!
Last I knew I can have as many different calibers/cartridges as my budget allows, and use what I feel is best, or turns my crank at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm not sure what the OP is looking for really?
If you are setting out to buy one rifle, the .308 would be my choice of the .308 family.
But to try and say it will do everything as well as bigger or smaller calibers on the case is, well, wrong!
Last I knew I can have as many different calibers/cartridges as my budget allows, and use what I feel is best, or turns my crank at the time.

Unfortunately, I have the same addiction you do to different calibers for different usages, which has led to a wasted and immoral life of "just one more, dear; just one more," (only, it ain't booze I'm craving -- it's rifles)!"

My latest acquisition promises to be my best yet(aren't they all?). It's a sweet little Remington Model 600 Mohawk that I just rebarreled to .358 Winchester -- a caliber that Remington should have included in the M-600 line when the gun was introduced in the 1960s. Instead, they went with the .350 Rem. Magnum, which, in a short-action rifle, represents the biggest waste of powder space in he history of modern cartridges. Whereas the .358 Winchester represents the most efficient use of available space.

I should have listened to my Dad back in 1965 when he gave me my first rifle, a Winchester Model 70, .30-'06, and told me "son, this is the only rifle you will ever need to hunt anything in this country."

If I had,I'd have a lot more money, and a much happier wife!

My Aussie pal did the same thing with his .308 Mohawk, turned it into a .358 pig and sambar rifle. After I got him a Savage 99 C, he rebarreled that to .358 and feels he has the best pig/sambar rifle in the world!

I would not suggest that the .308 is better in all situations. But to me if i want a bigger bullet, I want a bigger case too.
The .260 is pretty near equal to the 270 with 130 grain bullet , in trajectory , and power.
But going up to the .338 i would want the win mag or maybe a .338- 06.
I generally like at least a 2800 MV. i can live with a little less ,but a pointed bullet traveling that fast hits hard and shoots flat.
I do love my 45/70 but clearly it is a special purpose round. The .338 fed and .358 win, are less so.
...tj3006

The 30-06 vs. the .308 is todays match of yesterdays match between te 270 vs. the 30-06..

It's seems to be a fun subject as everyone has one or the other and rave on about their merits..

Bottom line is its only campfire talk, all 4 are outstanding rounds and not a nickels worth of difference in them. You could even add a couple of dozen other calibers in the equasion without changing a "thang!"

Difference shows up somewhere around the .338 Win IMO and perhaps the bif 300s and even that's questionable.

You know ray i think you are right on !
In north america if you have a .338 and any one of about a dozen other rounds you are all set !
...tj3006