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Okay here goes there are a lot of inexpensive 9.3x62 and 30-06 M96 Swedes coming into Canada lately and I am curious if the M96 action could be considered strong enough for the 9.3x62mm round? I know a lot of people that handload the 6.5x55mm in the M38 and M96 actions and they seem not to have any issues at all yet I also here stories of Swedish Mausers being weak and stretching and or failing if used with loads of more than about 45k PSI. Anyone with any practical experience with these firearms, your oppinion would be very appreciated. Thankyou ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | ||
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Bingo. So what max pressure do you load to ? 45K and all will be good. | |||
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I am not currently a handloader actualy but factory ammunition is currently available for 9.3x62 so I guess my main concern is this, will the M96 Mausers in this caliber be able to handle the factory loaded fodder? I have been unable to find factory pressures for this ammunition. Thankyou ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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56,500 PSI, I guess my search skills were just weak last night so I suppose that rules out the M96 Swedes. Too bad they're generaly nicer than the M98's in function. Thankyou ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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JUst my personal opinion....not at all provable... I wouldn't own a 9.3 X 62 or a .30-06 in any Mauser model prior to the model of 1898 and then only in a M-98 made after 1924 or a properly heat treated WWI action. I say this because I'm a reloader and will want to load both of these rounds as close to 62,000 PSI as I can decipher. I mean no disrespect to the fine Swede Mausers.....It's just my attitude toward ancient actions. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I agree with you Vapodog, best to be safe and not pick action peaces from ones face so I'll keep looking for a decent M98 Husky or other on the used market. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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before you give up on the 96 Swede actions remember there is a difference between the treatment of the commercial actions from Husqvarna and military surplus rifles. A lot of rifles in the 60k-63K psi range came out of that factory on two different types of 96 actions. All of the commercial actions began in the mid 1920s whereas the military actions go back to the late 1800s. The issue isn't the design but what steel and how it was treated. If the design bothers anyone, the Husqvarna "Improved Mauser" 96 action is a strengthened 96 to compete with the 98 that was offered in several cartridges of much higher pressure than the 9.3 x 62. For example, they came in 220 Swift. I just sold a Husky Improved Mauser to mjines in 8MM Mauser that handles full house modern European 8MM like a champ. I have a factory Stiga 9.3 x 62 made in Sweden from what appears to be a surplus 96 action. The original barrel was shot out from use and I just rebarreled it back to the same caliber. You will need to open the action some and extend the front of the magazine box. Its a lot of work and/or money when a 98 will work as-is but like you, I like the 96 actions. If I were going to build one from scratch from a Swede the action of choice would be one of the bargain basement "Improved Mauser" rifles going on the net for $300 or so. They are identified by no thumb cut on the left side of th ereceiver and a smaller loading port. If I were using a military surplus action all I would do extra is have th ething heat treated like any other mil-surp 98 action of questionalble condition should be. Having said all that, there are a bunch of Husky 98s in 9.3 x 57 floating around for very little money that can be chambered to 9.3 x 62 for very little money. Probably the best value today in a true Mauser platform. The fit and finish of those rifles was outstanding. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Hold on Tiger you just got my interest going as most of the M96 9.3x62 and 30-06 rifles I'm seeing are commercial actions for around $300 Canadian dollars. So maybe there is some hope for an inexpensive 9.3 project rifle in the near future. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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One thing to look for is that the Model 46 (the first of the commercial Husqvarnas) had the barrel maked "9.3 Kaliber" without a cartidge designation. ALL of these were 9.3 x 57 but more than a few were re-chambered to 9.3 x 62 at a later date. I suspect it was to clean up corroded and shot-out throats from years of use as 57s. I wouldn't be afraid of one of them from a safety aspect but you don't know if they feed well or not. I'd stick with an unaltered 9.3 x 57 since the chamber job is fairly cheap and you know that the rest of the gun is original. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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There's no flies on the 9.3 x 57, either. Fine round that's easy to shoot well and has enough thump for bears. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Beyond a shadow of a doubt the 9.3x57 is a good round but currently I do not handload and 9.3x62 ammunition is readily available. I may discuss with my gunsmith friend what he thinks the best choice is and if he is set up to reload either cartridge right now. My main hunting rifle right now (for last 20 odd years) is a Parker Hale No.4 .303 and I'm just considering something with a bit more oomph and bullet wieght. The 9.3mm has always interested me and seems a slightly better round than .35 Whelen and is currently more available as the 9.3x62 in various rifles. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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Heavens to mergetroid....there no better time than now to start!!!! The only difference between the 9.3 X 57 and the 9.3 X 62 is a few yards of range.....and the moose you have there in Canada won't know the difference. Use this opportunity to learn to reload....it's a marvelous way to express one's insanity! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Best of luck whichever way you decide! "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Lol I'm not opposed to handloading at all, space is just at a premium right now so I have no place to do so. Once I get more room it is certainly going to happen as all of the interesting larger bore cartridges are a reloaders dream. Your right about the moose, they realy don't care what you shoot them with as the 30-30 and .303 Savage work like a charm according to the older fellows I know. Oh that reminds me, the .303 Savage is another reason to start handloading once I can. Oh well, all for a future time. Thankyou all for your replies. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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Start gathering bullets and cases now.....these cases and bullets are becoming extremely rare. Once in a while I see ammo or cases for sale....buy them every time you can....until you have a small supply of reasonable quantity. If I owned a .303 Savage today.....I'd be thinking of replacing the barrel with a .30-30 barrel, or even a .32 special barrel. I don't believe the .303 Savage is especially collectible. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Don't forget the .303 Savage was unique because of the 190 grain .311 bullet in a .308 bore, it's almost horrible to think of rebarreling to .30-30 or .32 special but I can understand from an ease of use standpoint. The .303 Savage is also the first cartridge I ever heard of going through a moose end to end at about 125 yards, but that shot happened before my birth even if it did come from a credible fellow who was short on words. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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My father owned a .303 Savage and I may have a few factory loaded cartridges to help out....but they're 800 miles from me right now. Also if the .311 bullets are correct then one can use the Hornady .312 174 grain round nose and run it through a die to get it to .311 I don't have a drawing of the .303 case here but IIRC the .30-30 case won't cut it....you will need to find factory ammo or cases.....they are out there but finding them is a mess. I looked for Winchester 60 grain HP in .257 caliber for thirty years.....finally got 200 of them right here on AR....keep a watch! Oh BTW.....that end to end thing on a moose.....I think he meant a mouse! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Absolutely correct. If you study the history of metallurgy, things were incredibly primitive prior to 1900. Every analysis I have read of early plain carbon steels indicates high slag and impurities. Really messy stuff showing inconsistencies in the process controls. The world goes not go from black /white to color at the turn of the century, but metal knowledge is becoming more mature up to 1920. Process control is also improving but I don’t consider pre WW1 metallurgy as anything but middle primitive. This is still the plain carbon steel era, alloy steels are just appearing out of the laboratory and into mechanical items. Late 20’s actions are going to be better from a process improvement outlook, things from 1930’s to 1940 are going to be very good. All of these Swedish military actions were made from plain carbon steels, but just due to the advancement of process control and measurement advances, later actions are more likely to be stronger than early actions. . In the 1969 Gun Digest, John Amber reveals comparison tensile testing data that Ruger conducted on its M77. The M77 bolt is made from 4140. Ruger tested Mauser (I assume 98 Mauser) bolts and Springfield bolts. John Amber does not state if the 03 bolts were Class C plain carbon or the nickel steel bolts. Regards, these military bolt were ¼ to ½ as strong as the M77 bolt. So, when you are dealing with old military rifles made at least a century ago, made out of plain carbon steels, in primitive process control conditions, it does not make sense to hot rod one of these actions. While the machining is wonderful, the metal and heat treatment is always suspect. When these plain carbon receivers go, they tend to frag. And there is the gas handling capability of these old actions. The M98 Mauser is the best, it really protects the shooter. Earlier actions are not so good. Even later actions, such as the 03, are poor, and just awful in comparison to the great M98. Still, it is your head , so it all comes up to risk tolerance. If you are the sort who drives 100 mph on bald tires with one tire only being held on by two lug nuts, (and I met the guy) putting your one and only head behind one of these things might seem acceptable. | |||
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That's a very sobering picture and very much shows the need for safety and caution first, which reminds me not all factory .303 Savage ammunition was loaded with .311 bullets and if one is to copy Savages practice of doing so it would be very wise to reduce loads to avoid pressure issues. He originaly did it to increase pressure and thus velocity by a small margin while using the components that were available at the time. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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Avoid all m96 rebuild by and marked by STIGA, as they had the terrible idea of lengthening the magasine forvard, removing ramp material. Dont rebuild a m96 to longer COL than designed for. Never use optimistic handloads on any CRF rifle, as they have no usable casehead support. Dooing so will result in what the former post shows. This is not a matter of steelquality, but a lousy design, making a mediocre overload transform into a handgrenade, basically because of the lack of caseheadsupport. I have tortured multiple m96 by fiering optimistic 460wea , with presure enoug to leave the primer ratteling, without anny sighns of problems on the action. Then later deliberatly blowing the same action using a 6,5x55 with underloaded partition nosler and slowburning powder. When the casehead lets go, most CRF lets go, resulting in split stocks and boulged out magasines and destroyed boltstop. | |||
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Here is a thread from the "references" portion of the gunsmithing section regarding metalurgy, heat treating of pre-war mausers etc: forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/628102131?r=287103131#287103131 A lot of great info from the likes of D'Arcy Eckols and others. From what I gathered from this thread, mauser metalurgy was pretty much the same from 1902 to 1942. It is the carburizing/heat treating process that improved, making mausers from certain mfg's better. Check out the thread. Loads of good info from truly informed folks. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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I always read jørgen's post with great respect. He has long and lengthy experience with many types of actions....he is also owner of Denmark's Schulz and Larsen rifles. His words are worth remembering! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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trying /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Lack of space for hand loading during collage I loaded out of a 16 x 24 inch wooden box. My single stage press mounted to the top of it. Hundreds of rounds were made up I could afford to take fellow students out shooting on the weekends. Don't need much space at all. | |||
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Iam looking at the 1969 aritcle right now it says springfeild and mauser bolts sheared there lugs at between 19000 and 29000 psi of static load the77 took at least 40000psi to damage the lugs but did shear them off. It also states that the yeild strength of the action is 160000 psi. So much for the poor horrible cast Ruger actions being worse then the mauser actions. The only reason gunsmiths like the 98 so much is they get people to spend lots of money on them trying to get them up to modren standards | |||
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redo your link. It doesn't go anywhere. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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try this /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Amazing information from all and thankyou again for your replies. Turtlewolf ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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FWIW, the Swedish Army has used the G6 (6,5x55) and G7 (308W) target rifles, both built on m/94 or m/96 actions. They mostly used civilian ammunition (Norma) for these rifles. The civilian name of this rifle is CG 63, and even if the 6,5x55 was much more popular the 308W was also available. The issue Jorgen brings up is a different one concerning the method of opening up for the longer cartridge (and Stiga's in particular), not the inherent strength of the action design. If the 96 action will take the pounding that a 308 dishes out in competitive shooting there should be no basis to the idea that it is unsuitable for other "modern" higher pressure cartridges. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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The CG63's are pretty common here in Canada in darn near new condition for $500-700, very nice rifles and less expensive than the very good Finnish Target Mosin's that I have seen in similar stocks. I haven't seen a Swede CG63 in .308 though, it would be an amazing combination with the factory target sights. If I was in the market for a target rifle one of these would very much get the nod. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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I think that the psi is a typo. Shear should be in pounds force. Does not make sense to say the ultimate is 160,000 psi yet the lugs fail at 40,000 psia. Now it if was expressed as 160,000 psi material ultimate but lug shear is 40,000 pounds, that would make sense. As for the Mauser, I really like the Mauser 98 action design, it is the best overall action ever designed, in my opinion. Read Otteson book "Bolt Action" on all the safety features in the M98. Alloy steel or plain carbon, it is just to expensive to make.
I have seen ads for those Swedish target rifles. I don’t know action selection criteria, I don’t know if they preferred late model actions over early. I also don’t know whether those actions were durable or not if chambered in 308. No one on this side of the pond uses those actions in competition. There are just not enough of these things in service to know if these actions have lug set back problems after the first barrel. And there will not be. Classic bolt rifles have fadedng from XTC. In F class, the slow lock time, cock on closing, and great cost of converting one of these actions to a target rifle just means that it is not going to be on the firing line. Add up the costs of sporterizing these things. New stock, stock bedding, new barrel, bolt handle bending, receiver bridge drilling and tapping. At the end of the process you will have spent more than if you simply bought a nice new Rem, Win, or Savage, and the resale walue will be less. | |||
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Turtlwolf you mentioned you didn't have the space to reload at the present. Have you considered the LEE hand press? I know it's not as good as bench set up press, but at least your could reload. Set up a powder scale on a solid table and use powder scoop to throw charges, or weigh them all out. There are some differences between the 6.5x55 and the 9.3x57 handle their pressure. One is a relatively steeply shouldered "small bore" and the other a nearly straight tubed larger bore. Expansion ratios are vastly different. Factory and commonly cited loads develop different pressures. Maybe, even if there are problems with 42 HVA's we will, for those reasons, never hear of trouble with the HVA 42 9.3x57's. I believe you mentioned a 35 caliber and said the that 9.3x62 is a little better then the 35 Whelen. That reminded me that there is a 9x57 caliber out there too. Just for your information. I have a 9.3x57 by HVA and love it. I'm expanding up 8x57 brass currently. There are more brass choices available for the 9.3x62. Dies for the 9.3x57 tend to cost more then it's x62 brother. | |||
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I hadn't considered the Lee but will look into it. As it sits I am very much leaning towards a commercial M96 in the 9.3x62. I think that Tradex has a few 9x57's as well but I am very much inclined to want a larger bore and heavier projectile. Slamfire, the CG 36 from what I have been told and seen from thier owners (I haven't fired one yet) will generaly shoot almost a one hole group with good shooting and good ammunition as they are. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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Turtlewolf: I have a M-96 based action rifle in 9.3x62mm. It was originally 9.3x57mm and rechambered. AFAIC they are safe to shoot, just don't try to push the envelope and make it a 9.3x62 magnum. My loads run 286 grain bullets between 2,200-2,300 fps and I feel this to be plenty fast enough without straining the rifle. | |||
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What I can tell you is that loads like the 6.5x55 are found in load books at a lesser pressure than a 98 action in deference to the M-96 actions. Good grief, if you are currently using a 303 savage then just get one of those 96 actions and go moose hunting with a 6.5X55... Problem solved.. A 96 is a strong action but they typically have a lower SAAMI rating for a reason. If you really want to build it though then handloading is the answer. Otherwise you wont have a clue if it is safe or not until it goes BANG!! I have a 308 that in their infinite wisdom NATo built on a Spanish ,93 action. No problem, I just use 300 savage data. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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If you're talking about the Spanish FR-7 308 NATO, I had one of those. It had the AR-15 style flash hider and an under-barrel bayonet lug that looked like a big gas tube. I think they were converted from 7x57 for the Civil Guard when NATO adopted the 7.62x51. They had a special low pressure 308 round loaded especially for use in those guns, not full-house NATO spec. Caused a lot of grief here when they began to import them. Wish I'd kept mine. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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That cartridge was the 7.62 Cetme and was loaded with a lighter bullet and less velocity then the 7.62 NATO standard. Spain tried to beef it up by loading the 147 grain bullet and upping the velocity but the case failed because it's not exactly the same as the 7.62 NATO case and more so is weaker. | |||
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Yup, thanks for that. I had forgotten the name Cetme. Didn't the Japanese also load a lighter 308 in their battle rifle before the 5.56? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I actualy hunt with the good old .303 British as I stated earlier, the .303 Savage discussion was just a minor side rail. The 6.5x55 is certainly an amazing cartridge that drops game like the hammer of Thor, but right now I'm focused on a 9.3x62 and thats whats being added to the gun vault hopefully in about a month once Christmass and new years is settled. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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Judging from your user name are in Western Canada as well? I admit very little knowledge of Sask if you are but would be interested on any information from real world hunting in your area that you can supply. Cheers ------------------------------------ Save a life, delete a Facebook account today. | |||
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