For some reason, I’m going through a “ heavy-for-caliber”, high sectional density phase of thinking this year. I’m just a Maine deer hunter, but I am intrigued with 220 grain bullets in both the 30-06 and 308 Winchester.

I’ve been reading about them, and it has been interesting- particularly about the 308 Winchester and 220 grain cup/core jacketed bullets. Sort of a “short 30-40 Krag”, with MV of 2200-2300 FPS. I always viewed the max weight for the 308 Win as 200 grain. There are some interesting-and ACCURATE-reports of 220 grainers from 308 Win rifles with 1-12” twists. Maybe we are overlooking a “thumper load.” News to me. Now I want to experiment with 220 grainers in my 308 Win and 30-06 rifles.

Would like to read more about field and range results from those shooting 220 grain .30 caliber non-magnum loading (especially the 308 Winchester with 220 grainers).

A bullet (30 cal) with a sectional density over .30 (.330 for 220 grainers) is just plain interesting to me. Flying freight trains.

I load my .30-06 and .308 with 220gr bullets. Sako 220gr Hammerhead factory loads in my .30-06 at 2400 fps (20" 1:11 twist barrel Sako 85 carbine) and Woodleigh 220gr handloads in my .308 at 2425 fps (23.6" 1:12 twist barrel CZ550). About 1 MOA accuracy and both are bonded core bullets for maximum penetration.

Do 308 Win rifles generally have rifling twists fast as .30-06s? I only ask because 200-grainers are the heaviest I can recall in factory .308 ammo.

4sixteen, your rifles suggest this twist difference may be common. The 220s seem to work for you in the 308 but I wonder if that is because you drive them so fast. How was the accuracy at, say, 2200fps?

I wonder if the 220-grain loads might give too much penetration on whitetails, bar those heading south, unless you want complete penetration for tracking purposes. The Remington Core-Lokts in that weight used to be the .30-06 favorite here for sambar deer, but that is a much-bigger animal.

USA made rifles are typically 1:10" for a .30-06 and 1:12" for a .308 win. I'm not sure of European .308's but at least from what I've seen most euro .30-06's seem to be 1:11 or 1:12".

I would be concerned about expansion in game as light as whitetails. Don't know cause I've never tried them, but 180s are plenty stiff for whitetails.

I shoot up to 180's in the 308 and 30-06. The pound whitetails very well. I have loaded 220's in 300 H+H and 30-06 but I have only killed paper with them. I still have several boxes of 250 grain Barnes originals in 308. Those are for the 300 H+H.

I have shot lots of pigs,few bears and a few deer with 220's.

One coyote running at 110 yards with the scout rifle it was DRT .308 hole in 1.5 inch hole out.

Out of my 18' inch 06 scout I get 2300fps never had a problem with expansion. It is my favorite in the thick stuff pig rifle and for chasing bears with hounds.



Out of a 22 inch Ruger 06 I get 2450fps.

Using Rem and Hornday RN can't tell the difference.

The first guide I ever used was an old time Kodiak bear guide. He told me he'd be perfectly happy to take a guy bear hunting with a 30-06 using the 220 Corelokt factory load and had taken many so armed. I think that load will plow a big hole in a Maine whitetail on both the entrance and exit.

Mark

I would in the 30-06, maybe in the 308 Id opt for the 180..Having used both a good deal, I feel like the 308 case isn't designed for 220 gr bullets, not saying they wouldn't work, Im sure they would, but not my choice, it just makes no since to me....

Berger calculator predicts ok stability with the 220gr RN Woodleigh from a 1:12 twist barrel. Range results agree. Group size is sub inch at 100 yards. As mentioned I get 2425 fps MV with this bullet from my 23.6" 1:12 twist barrel .308 CZ550 Exclusive using Re17 at near maximum pressure. My .30-06 does 2400 fps MV with the 220gr Sako factory loads.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

My wife uses her Husky 30/06 with the Rem CoreLokt load in 220gr to great effect on Texas pigs.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
The first guide I ever used was an old time Kodiak bear guide. He told me h'ed be perfectly happy to take a guy bear hunting with a 30-06 and the 220 Corelokt factory load and had taken many so armed. I think that load will plow a big hole in a Maine whitetail on both the entrance and exit.

Mark

They will and they have.

220 Hornady and Sierra work just great on whitetail at 2250-2500 FPS loadings.
Run some ballistic charts on same and you will see they are not just a short range load as well.

Nug, I, too, am fond of heavy-for-caliber daydreams. Back when I was swaging I made some 225-grain softpoints for .303. Never had a chance to use them on a critter, but they sure seemed accurate at the range.

I love the 220 Sierra RN in my "06 for Deer.

Usually use IMR 4831, but it doesn't much matter to the Deer.

In my 300 Mag I've used the 220 Nosler Partition in Africa with excellent results.

If the weather is good that is what will be in my hands in November. If the weather is bad it'll be the SS MKII dpcd is rebarelling into 9.3x62 for me.

200gns at slo-mo velocity pretty much maxes-out the .308. Stick to the 180gn bullets. That's where the .308's efficiency in its 'hunting mode' really shines brightest.

For the big stuff, you need a .30-06. Run it with 220gns at 2400+fps. That's a proven 'stopper' load right there.

Otherwise, your next logical step is to step-up to a .30-cal (or larger) magnum; however for 99.9% of 'lower 48 hunting,' the magnum's horsepower is unnecessary.

My ruger ultralight .308 was the first centerfire rifle I reloaded for, and hence with a newbies excitement I tried just about every bullet weight out there to see what it would do.

Part of that testing was with the 220 gr Sierra rn and as I recall (it's been about 20 years) I was getting 2150 fps from the 20" barrel using RL15, Varget and H-4350.

Personally I think a 30 caliber on smaller big game is going to be a better killer with a 150-165 gr bullet moving out at 2700-2800 fps. Once your'e using enough bullet weight to get consistent exits with a bullet, IMHO to increase terminal effects you increase velocity, not weight.

Over 50 years ago when I got my first centerfire rifle, a Rem 700 308 I was excited to use big game bullets but the biggest load was the 200 gr silvertip. this was before regular people had chronographs and for years all I used was a Lee Loader, but I was smart enough to get an Ohaus 505 scale. the reloading manuals of the time didn't even have listing for 220 grain bullets in the 308 section. I Was smart enough to use a scale instead of Lee dippers, but I wasn't smart enough to know that I couldn't just reduce the powder load of the 200 by 10% and expect acceptable results. Part of the problem was the long 220 grain bullet went so far down into the case that it really cut back on available powder space. I don't have the records of the results but I recall using IMR4350 in an amount that was 100% density (the space leftover from the bullet) and while the loads seemed to be accurate, the trajectory was much steeper at 200 yards than the 180 or even the 200 grain loads. My conclusion was that there wasn't enough space in the 308 to have sufficient powder when using 220 grain bullets, so I started loading 180s, which at the time Nosler Partitions were the big deal, so I used them and had great success. At the time there were only about a half dozen rifle powders available so there was little opportunity to see if better performance could be obtained with the 220 in 308 by using different powders. Such is not the case today. With the dozens and dozens of rifle powders available it is entirely ;possible that you can find a powder that will provide adequate performance with the 220, and now we even have chronographs t check performance- much better than noting how much farther one bullet hits lower at the 200 or 300 yard target. Good luck in your endeavor.

quote:

For some reason, I’m going through a “ heavy-for-caliber”, high sectional density phase of thinking this year.

I've always thought that it makes sense. I guess as a Brit we all cut our teeth on the 174 grain bullet .303 so think anything under that similar length/weight/calibre rationis a short for calibre bullet.

I also used to shoot Mauser rifles in 8x57S and 8x60S and in both favoured the 196 grain bullet. So like the OP I am now beginning experimenting with 200 grain Sierra Game King in my .30-06 with H414.

Will be using a Ruger Guide rifle in 30-06
this fall here in PA. , Whitetail.
I will be using a Hornady 220 Gr RN in my handload
at 2465 FPS.
First time with this load. Shots will
Likely be 50-100 yards from my experience
In the area I’ll be in.
I’ll try to report back how the bullet
performed if I get one.

I just bought a 358 win and went around the whole thing.
now I can shoot 250gr. bullets.

oddly enough it has a 1-12 twist, my 308 has a 1-10..

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
I just bought a 358 win and went around the whole thing. now I can shoot 250gr. bullets.

A .35 Whelen solves the same problem.

Once you feel you need more than a 200gn or 220gn load in .30-06, you're next best step is to move up in bullet-diameter - which opens up your choices in bullet-weight too.

Short of a .375H&H, a .35 Whelen firing 225gn, 250gn, or 300gn bullets is really hard to beat, unless you're just a complete thumb-sucking Tyro or some sort of lazy bench-rester.

Decided to try the 220gr Woodleigh / Re17 handload in my 22" 1:12 twist barrel .308 Zastava LKM70. Muzzle speed is about 2365 fps which is about 60 fps less than from my 23.6" barrel .308 CZ550. And only about 35 fps less than the .30-06 220gr factory loads from my Sako 85 carbine.

Negligible differences between my .308's and .30-06 with 220gr loads. For use on Elk, Moose or Bear the 220gr should provide maximum penetration.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would shoot 200 or 220 gr. bullets in a 308 Win. The 165 or 180 about maxes out its real killing effect..The 30-06 is maxed out with a 180 or 200 IMO..The 300 is at its best with a 200 gr. but efficient with a 220 gr. bullet..At least that makes more since to me.

A 200 gr or 220 gr. bullet at 2300 to 2400 FPS is less than spectacular, and has been known to expand very little or none at all in some cases. At any rate its a short range option..

NOt saying all is lost, just that I see all this as a bunch of nonsence. In todays bullets I see no need at all for a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet, short of nostalgia in the 30-40 Krag.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
* * *

* * * In todays bullets I see no need at all for a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet, short of nostalgia in the 30-40 Krag.

I agree it's a waste of time trying to stuff a 200gn or 220gn slug in a .308 case and expect to be able to hot-rod it to '06 levels.

But with today's propellants, you can handload a 220gn bullet in the '06 case to almost 2500fps. Now there's some smack-down authority on the receiving end that a .308 will never match, ... not without blowing up the rifle.

As far as the .30/40 Krag goes, in mine I handload Hornady 220gn RN bullets to just a tad over 1900fps. Accurate and mild on the old Krag action.

quote:

NOt saying all is lost, just that I see all this as a bunch of nonsence. In todays bullets I see no need at all for a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet, short of nostalgia in the 30-40 Krag.

Mental masturbation it all is. I see no reason for any other cartridge then a 30-06.

But enjoy using many others and playing with them.

Picking, choosing, reloading and practicing with different rifles and cartridges.

Is all part of the game and enjoyment.

I’ve enjoyed reading the responses. The accuracy reports of the 220 grain bullets in 1-12” barrels were much better than anticipated. The MV findings were better than expected. Near 2400 FPS in a 308 Win with 220 grain? Pretty slick.

The 308 Win with 200 or 220 grainers will never match the 30-06 with those bullets. I get that. Never expected that to happen. To me, it demonstrates the effectiveness/versatility of the 308 Win cartridge. You get a lot of performance from a small case, with a wide range of bullet weights.

I started this post for the simple reason that I was interested in the 220 grain 308 caliber non-magnum loading. You don‘t read much about them ( 220 grains in non-mag 30 caliber cases), but it seems to be a more viable option than I thought. Thanks for the real-life case histories.

Perhaps the best “heavy bullet” for the 308 Win and 30-06 IS the 200 grain spitzer, but the reports of the 220 grainer 308 Win MV and accuracy surprised me.

Shift to the 30-06 with 220 grainers at near 2500 FPS, and everything steps up a notch to a more notable level, especially with the right powder.

Thanks for the chrono reports. Keep the 200-220 grain 308 Win/30-06 reports coming. Good stuff.

Nugman...A friend swore by his Parker Hale Deluxe No 4 Lee-Enfield .303 Sporter. He shot a huge amount of game. He used mostly the 174 grain loading as that was the most widely available in the 1960s and 1970s. But he always said that the old 215 grain bullet killed best. It trundled along at not a lot more than 2,200 fps. But it killed dead. As you say those old heavy bullets are effective and shouldn't be ignored. And, of course, you get far less spoiled meat.

I've got 3 30-06s, a stainless M77, a Ruger Express, and a DR, and I only shoot 220s.

The two bolt guns love partitions and the double likes Hornady round noses, both over 53.5 grains of I4831. I've got a few thousand of each laid away to last a few lifetimes. If I started over today I'd probably choose a 180 or 200 TTSX, but I have zero qualms about the 220s.

I'm a dyed in the wool 375H&H-for-everything fan but a few years back I took the stainless bolt gun to Kodiak for bear rather than one of my 375s I usually hunt with because at the time it had a better scope and I knew it would work just fine, which it did.

Bob

Very often it is best to check the manufacturer's recommendations.
The WOODLEIGH BULLETS LOADING MANUAL does not provide any data for the 220-grain bullets in the 308 Winchester case.
The maximum bullet weight shown for the 308 Win. is the 200-grain PP-SN with a maximum velocity of 2,430 fps.
The maximum bullet weight shown for the 30/06 Springfield is the 240-grain PP-SN with a maximum velocity of 2,370 fps.
This is a big difference in weight and a small difference in speed.
Let me repeat, it is best to check the manufacturer's recommendation.
They don't go there, should you?
Sincerely,

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
* * *

* * * In todays bullets I see no need at all for a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet, short of nostalgia in the 30-40 Krag.

I agree it's a waste of time trying to stuff a 200gn or 220gn slug in a .308 case and expect to be able to hot-rod it to '06 levels.

But with today's propellants, you can handload a 220gn bullet in the '06 case to almost 2500fps. Now there's some smack-down authority on the receiving end that a .308 will never match, ... not without blowing up the rifle.

As far as the .30/40 Krag goes, in mine I handload Hornady 220gn RN bullets to just a tad over 1900fps. Accurate and mild on the old Krag action.

I use the 220 RN in my 30-40 Krag also. It is a winchester 95 carbine, these had a good reputation as bear guns. Probably because of good penetration and limited expansion in the day.

To make sense of this I think of cartridges and their bullets in terms of metric sizes
So say from steps of 1/2mm increments

7mm, 7.5mm 8mm 8.5mm 9mm etc

and cases basically with the 30-06 size as midpoint. So either bigger or smaller then the 06 case capacity

In the old traditional British and German Colonial realm the 30-06 sized case or thereabouts loaded with heavy 250 gr bullets did very well So basically they were mostly between 8mm and 9.5mm ( 338 = 8.5mm, 375 = 9.5mm 30 cal = 7.62mm etc )

Think about it , 318 WR is basically a 8.5mm in a 06 case and topped with a 250 gr bullet was the bees knees

The 9.3 x 62 the same ! in America the 35 Whelen.

The 9mm Mauser again the same.

Mannlicher went 9.5mm in a 06 case capacity with their 9.5mm


Why then would a 30-06 which is between 7.5 and 8mm in a 06 sized case loaded with a 220 gr bullet or even 250 gr bullet not do well ?

Old time loaders used to stick a 250 gr bullet in a 06 at 2500 fps !

Its the same for the 300 H&H, stick a 250 gr bullet in that and you have the same effect

A lot of people are hung up on velocity.
Heavy bullets at moderate velocities do very very well as the old timers can attest to

Alf,
A lot of people are hung up on heavy for caliber bullets..As with most things the proper answer lies in moderation..For me that would be :
150 to 165 gr. bullets in the .308
150 to 200 gr. bullets in the the 30-06
200 gr. bullets in the 300 H&H

I see no use or need for a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet, as my experience tells me they are simply not up to the job they were designed for and the 200 gr. is faster, penetrates better btw and kills quicker, that is based on using both and observation of others.

Although Ive owned a couple of 318s, as I loved the rifles, its performance on game with 250 gr. bullets was nothing spectacular IMO, game seem to make a lot of tracks but left a good blood trail, and that's a plus, and it had its place in the thick bush, but I much preferred the 30-06..

I really liked the 9.3x62 with 250 and 286 gr.bullets, but not the 300 and 320s and I loaded it much warmer than most of the quoted ballistics out there, and it killed no better than the 30-06 with a 200 gr. Nosler. I did find it exceptional with 300 and 320 gr. bullets in a hot loaded 27 inch barreled original Mauser however, quite the equil of the .375 H&H..

Just a different approach I suppose, in that I think one can go overboard in both directions, I also think your of the same mind.

Are their exceptions to the rule either way, certainly.

I have used various 220 grain bullets in a variety of thirty calibers. I loaded the 220 Sierras to 2540 in a 30/06. I loaded these for moose but never shot anything bigger than a mule deer; worked great. In the 30/40 Krag (mine built on a #4 Lee Enfield) I loaded then to 2325. This shoots very well in the 12 twist barrel. In the 308 Norma, I got 2790 fps and shot elk, mule deer, black bear, and a couple of coyotes. This load is very accurate in the Norma (sub 3/4 moa). Regards, Bill

I have only used a 220 grain .308” bullet on game in my...... .32-20 Contender carbine. A Sierra 220-grain RN at 1100 fps killed a 150 lb deer very well with full penetration and a large wound channel. The bullet tumbled, tearing a large wound and killing quickly. Others have had very somilar experiences.

This isn’t a traditional use for heavy-for-caliber bullets, but it is an effective one.

.

Last year I shot 61 wildebeest and oryx with the .30-06. I tried a lot of different bullets including 200 grain Partition and 240 grain Woodleigh soft point. They all killed wildes and oryx easily. The heavies did not kill any quicker or penetrate any better than the high quality, bonded 180s. The best performers were the Swift Scirocco and A-frame 180s. Followed by the 200 grain Partition and Norma Oryx. Then the Sierras, Speers and Woodleighs.

My objection to a 30 cal 220 gr. bullet is the 338 or 35 Whelen with a 250 gr. bullet is oh so much better..I place a lot of faith on a higher cross section bullet..The declared advantage of a 220 gr. 30 caliber is penetration, Sectional Density..Thats all fine but the 200 gr. 30 caliber bullets in soft noses will out penetrate any conventional 220 gr bullet, Nothing surpasses the 200 gr. Nosler in a 30 caliber rifle according to the many tests Ive run, especially the Nosler partitions and that includes the 220 Nosler partition which will not out penetrate the 200 gr. Nosler partition. But to each his own, as circumstance vari as do hunting conditions etc.

IN all my testing the 180 NOsler was a paultry 2 inches short of the 200 Nosler, significant? perhaps, perhaps not! but bottom line it will out penetrate any other bullets I tested..

On game the Swift A-Frame was a very good bullet but I found game made more tracks than they do with the partition, the swifts expansion is greater than the Nosler and that puts the "queidas" on penetration, something many do not take into consideration..

Your idea of using a 220 grain bullet in the 308 is sound in my estimation. I've used them in 30-06s and my 300 H&H and my 30-40 Krag and been pleased with the performance. I've been tempted to load a few for my wife's 308 but haven't got around to it yet.

I have yet to recover a Hornady 220 grain RN from a deer. I've taken 6 or 7 with them in the above three chamberings. All were broadsides or slightly quartering away. All showed evidence of good expansion. Most were under 100 yards, one about 175.

My friend, the late Michael Petrov, used a 30-40 and 220 grain bullets to moose hunt for his first several years in Alaska. He noted the moose died every time.

Some people get so wrapped around the axle of "optimum" performance out of a round, they forget some of us like to experiment and some of us like and believe in heavy for caliber bullets and don't feel the need for every last fps.

Grab a box of Hornady, Sierra or Woodleigh 220 grain bullets, load em up and have fun. They'll kill deer just fine.