quote:

Rnovi,
true, the article is about .358win200NF 2660mv penetration on deer bone (faired 12.25" penetration),so what would your 35rem200gn2000mv fair in regards to penetration on bear?
You mention hogs & bears in the same context;

No idea. Which is why I posed the question about velocity vs. size against bigger boned animals.

As to boars, I hit a 250# piggie right behind the ear with a Hornady SST. The SST didn't exit. I'm not so sure that a 200gr. CorLokt would have faired any better.

22cal GsHV on Zebra head shot; http://gsgroup.co.za/pietswart.html

That hog in my previous post looks pretty dead after hit with 6.5x57 112gn mono at 150yd,..... why would 257rob. with a tough bullet not work well at 75yd?

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:
At the risk of killing my own thread, I wanted to chime back in with the original thought:

"Do different animals "respond" differently to velocity or penetration?"

I haven't read all the replies yet (there are so many), but the short answer is "yes".


To what degree, and whether the difference in response is consistent from animal to animal, I can conjecture, but I really don't know absolutely.

But think about these over-simplified possibilities:

1. Some large animals do not have significantly larger brains than many smaller ones. Therefor their brains don't need any more oxgen-rich blood to stay alive than smaller animals' brains do.

2. To kill brain function, other than by blowing the brain itself apart, one needs to deprive it of oxygen for a couple or three minutes.

You can kill the animal by having the brain die so it will no longer provide automatic bodily functions such as breathing, or heart muscle contraction, which both contribute significantly to the circulation of oxygen to the rest of the body, and thereby keep he other individual cells alive.

Or you can kill the animal by just having all the blood rapidly leak out so that the brain and the other cells all die simultaneously.

3. Some large animals have much slower heart rates than some smaller animals.

4. Most larger animals have significantly more blood in their systems than some smaller ones do. It is blood that carries the oxygen to the brain and to the whole of the body in general.

So more blood to start with MAY take longer to deplete the conveyor of oxygen (the whole blood supply) to the point where the cells ALL die.

Anyway, a large animal with more blood, and a slower acting blood pump, is possibly going to require more time to dump all the blood necessary to kill it.

So, maybe the trick is to use whatever will cause the most blood to leak out, or alternately to hit the animal in a way that the brain is disconnected from the parts of the body which it directs to send oxygen-rich blood to all parts of the animal.

Depending on skin thickness, fat thickness, bone size, the amount of flesh to be penetrated and torn up, different bullets at different speeds may be required.

For myself, I want something big enough to destroy critical bone structure on initial impact, so the animal at least lays/falls down when struck. Then it can take whtever time is required for it to die. During that time at least it probably won't be lost, or worse yet, kill me too.

So personally, I will opt for heavy enough bullets to break shoulders and/or hips, and immobilize the animal. Ultimate death can be accomplished by more shots at the immobile animal, if needed.

---------------

To answer your question yes it makes a difference in killing power. I mean You take a large bullet with high ballistic coefficients and a smaller bullet with high veloscty They both can kill large game one would be alot slower then the other would need quite a few more shots also. Thats why they make large bore rifles for large game and smaller bore bullets for smaller bore rifles for smaller game.

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:
...Here's where my head's been on this. I didn't want to "bias" the discussion, hence why I kept things a bit generic.

Hey rnovi, I understand. Getting non-biased info is almost as difficult as giving it.

quote:

I'm going to go for a "walk in the woods" this winter looking for Bear. I'm in SoCal guys - I didn't call this hunting! I called it a "walk in the woods" for a reason - I truly don't expect to see much of anything.

Drop down and give us 25, naw, make it 50 and then go run for 3 miles through brier infested dry sand. With that attitude, the is as much chance of seeing a Bear as getting a post from alf in a thread that does not include Killing Humans - ZERO chance.

quote:

Hunter success rates on bear are in the Single digits.

Tough Hunting builds character. That is why it is called Hunting and not Shooting.

quote:

..if I even see EDIT IN: "When I see" a bear in the woods, chances are it's going to be a relatively close shot.

Now you are back on track. Yes, YES, a thing called "trees" makes it real difficult to see far in the woods.

quote:

In the safe are a number of Tools. I've boiled it down to two - mainly because I don't want to lug a .375 H&H through the hills...

1. .257 Roberts with 117gr. bullets at 2800fps.
2. .35 Remington with a 200gr. / 2000fps load.

Given that distances are likely not to exceed 75 yards...and that the bears I do see are likely to be hungry...and also known that bears have been known to kill people in the area...the question becomes quite valid.

Concern for critters which occasionally look at us as a "snack" is sound thinking. Maybe they won't, but..., maybe they will. Good idea to ponder those two Cartridges and what they do well.

quote:

Statistically, the .257 pretty much wins any competition...except TKO. If one subscribes to the Velocity approach, then the Bob would be enough...and if one subscribes to the Mass approach, the .35 Rem would work.

A good old Nosler Partition in the 257Rob, would definitely Kill a Black Bear. But the "hair" tends to soak up a lot of Blood on a Bear. It would make tracking very difficult because they don't leave much of a print anyhow. Larger paw print spreads the weight, doesn't sink in as well, blah blah blah.(aka tough tracking).

As has been said, a Brain or Spine shot would provide an instant Kill, but, it is a "randomly timed, moving" target mass. So, taking an intentional shot at a Head on Game reeks of severe Rookiness. (No need for 50 or the 3 mile rerun, since you have more savvy than that.)

quote:

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to carry the .35 Rem this year.

You knew what you needed all along.

quote:

Nostaliga seems to be winning me over for the levergun. That, and I like a bigger bullet for heavier game.

There you go, the Bigger Hole and good penetration would be a couple of +pluses+ when you go Hunt and Kill the Bear.
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Might be a good excuse to get a new rifle - if you wanted one. But there is nothing wrong with the old 35Rem for Bears in the woods. I'd reach in the Safe and stick an old El Paso made 3x Weaver scope on it in Weaver Mounts and absolutley positively with a Weaver Base. With the Weaver Base on it, if the scope is removed(easy to do and easy to put back on) you can still see the Iron Sights because of the extremely well designed "lengthwise Groove" in the Weaver Base.

I put a set of Williams Fire Sights on my 444Mar last year and they are just what I wanted. In slightly dim light they are quick to acquire and plenty accurate for my old eyes.

I'd guess you will be Loading your own for the 35Rem. Here I'd recommend the tough old 200gr Hornady RN. I've had to help drag in a lot of Black Bears with holes in them made by those Bullets. They were shot from 358Wins, but 35Rem velocity just mkes them penetrate even deeper at the same Impact Distance.
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You do need to be thinking about "How" you will get the Bear out-of the woods. They do not come with good "handles". Dragging with a rope is not always a good idea on something which can easily out-weigh you. A buddy or two, who understands that a Bear will be Killed, is a HUGE help.

Storm coming, gotta get. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills on the Bear.

NEVER USE ROUND NOSE BULLETS IN A TUBE FEED RIFLE . I thot everyone knew this !!
. 220 gr flat nose .358 bullets .about as good a bullet as you will use in the 35 Rem ... You don,t drag animals whole out of the woods .. You peel them there and pack the hide out then the meat if you are going to eat it .........

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
NEVER USE ROUND NOSE BULLETS IN A TUBE FEED RIFLE .

Actually, it's pointed bullets that you should never use in a tube mag. Round nosers, depending on degree of the nose, are ok. The 200gr. roundnose has been been THE go-to load for the .35 Rem for a hundred years...

Rnovi, Trax,

I do not see where the previous article supported using a .257" TSX at all, in fact, the way I read the results, that is the last bullets choice for the purpose indicated.

More penetration that required and too narrow a wound channel. And no wonder at 27 cal after petal loss.

Rnovi, another great feature of the 35 Rem choice is the format - a slim light fast lever action. I love ghost ring siights on mine. Is is an unpardonable sin to put a scope on one, btw...

I'm a 257R owner and fan, I would choose 115 or 120gr NP's for blackbear if I was going to use one for blackbear.

JPK

Gumboot, as silly as it might sound to you, there are plenty of lower 48 states that require game animals to be removed from the field whole.

I'll confirm the RN and tube history, I was so accumstomed to factory RN's when I was younger that the first flat noses I saw hit me as the uglies rounds I'd ever seen and it took a decade to get used to seeing them.

JPK, not sure what your deal is, but if you will notice where Gumboot is from, ALASKA, they have probably the strictest regulations as far as salvaging meat from a game animal is concerned, more so than ANY of the Lower 48.

Reading comprehension issues, eh?

Here is some help:

A member from the Carolinas posted, amoungst other suggestions, that consideration for recovery of the bear be given in advance of the hunt - in the form of frinds availble to help.

Gumboot responded to the earlier post suggesting that consideration be given to how to retrieve the bear by suggesting skinning and cutting it up and carrying it out.

Many states do not permit skinning and quartering or boning some or all game animals in the field. I pointed this out to him.

Moreover, the poster who suggested consideration for recovery is from the Carolinas, where I understand skinning and quartering in the field are not permitted.

(Same for Texas, no?)

JPK

. Are you serious you can,t work an animal in the woods . Thats crazy ... Drag an animal out whole , Thats nuts ...Maybe if you can drive right up to it .

Yes, it the truth. Fear of making poaching easier, I think. Until a couple of years ago, we were required to actually bring every dear and turkey whole (but gutting permitted) to a check in station where it was reviewed by a warden and a biologist.

Take a look at a Cabela's catalog, you will see drag harnesses and game carts offered for a reason!

I've dragged my share of deer, but on a couple of occasions dragging big deer from our nuts deep, glue like, muddy salt water marshes has nearly done me in.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
------
Moreover, the poster who suggested consideration for recovery is from the Carolinas, where I understand skinning and quartering in the field are not permitted.

(Same for Texas, no?)

JPK

Not in Texas

From this years Field Book:

Processing Carcass in Camp
If there is a cold storage or processing facility (record book required, see pg. 62) established on property where hunting occurs, a person may process a deer or antelope beyond quarters. If there is not a facility, a deer or antelope may not be cut into smaller portions than a quartered carcass as defined below before the carcass reaches its final destination.
You are allowed to prepare for immediate consumption and eat all or a part of a properly tagged wildlife resource while in camp; however, all tagging and proof of sex regulations apply to remaining parts.

REGULATIONS SUMMARY TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE OUTDOOR ANNUAL 2008-2009 61

A quartered carcass is:

•not more than two forequarters, leg portion (down to the knee) attached to the shoulder blade;

•two hindquarters (leg bones down to the hock must remain attached); and

•two backstraps/trimmings from neck and rib cage (the boned-out neck and rib cage may be discarded).

REGULATIONS SUMMARY TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE OUTDOOR ANNUAL 2008-2009 6

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Yes, it the truth. Fear of making poaching easier, I think. Until a couple of years ago, we were required to actually bring every dear and turkey whole (but gutting permitted) to a check in station where it was reviewed by a warden and a biologist.

Take a look at a Cabela's catalog, you will see drag harnesses and game carts offered for a reason!

I've dragged my share of deer, but on a couple of occasions dragging big deer from our nuts deep, glue like, muddy salt water marshes has nearly done me in.

JPK

.
.
. I can believe it ...On the coast we either "Southeast pack" a deer out , or alot of guys skin and quarter them in the brush and pack them out in a backpack .... Southeast pack is when after rolling the guts out ,you lengthwise skin out the lower leg and remove the bone but leave the hoof on . do that with all 4 legs cross the legs and tie the opposite side front and back leg together with the hooves . If you have a hunting buddy have them help you get the deer on your shoulders like a back pack ....If its a doe cut the head off at the 1st vb if a buck you can use the horns to hold it,s head around . .Then head down off the mountain , or out of the muskeg thru an area that may have 4 brown bear per sq. mile and sometimes many more .... .. Do that and you,ll figure out why we hunt deer with much larger rounds than are needed to kill a deer .... The last deer I S.E. packed out was a 150 lb dressed doe ... Only needed 1 sit down break ... The only trail was a bear trail . I was using my 375 H&H loaded with 300 gr Federal Trophy Bonded High Energy ammo for the pack out ,and yes there was a round chambered ..

I have been hunting in Texas for deer since I was 12 years old.

Most all of Texas hunting is on Private land.

Some of it is day hunting, but most of it is yearly leased.

As a result the "Leasees" take pretty good care of "their deer".

WE look at the Deer as our property, and care and manage it accordingly.

I do not worry about anybody on my lease doing anything illegal or unethethical.

The Game Warden in our area know how we feel/operate, and do not "over Police" us, they do not need to. In fact we invite the Game Warden to come to our lease, and to our camp Any Time.

He is our friend, and we want him to check our lease out, and we want everyone in the area to know HE is checking it out.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
...A member from the Carolinas posted, amoungst other suggestions, that consideration for recovery of the bear be given in advance of the hunt - in the form of frinds availble to help. ...

You all have raised some interesting questions that I know for sure I can not answer.

When I was Hunting with the Club that did a lot of Bear Hunting, it was on the East Coast of North Carolina while I was still in the CORPS. The Club had been formed by some of the Sand Crabs(civilians who worked on the Base) and it had been around for many, many years, with access to most of the Eastern Swamps(or so it seemed to me).

There was at least one Game Warden in the Club and may have been two. The Club size fluctuated from year to year with about 50 being the normal max and a core group of about 25 Sand Crabs.

Now here is the part I do not remember - ever looking at a Rules and Regs Manual. I fould it best to just pay attention to the ancient old Hunters of the group(HA they were my current age or less), and do whatever they recommended.

I do not know if it was required for us to remove the entire Bear from the Swamp, but we always did. We always ended up coated with a wonderful layer or two of Swamp Mud which has a distinct memorable aroma too.

We used good old never fail M14s with the FMJs removed, powder dumped and reloaded with the same Powder adjusted for a 165gr Hornady RN or SP didn't matter. The Sand Crabs used various rifles, but six of them had M99 Savages in 358Win. We also made cartridges for them, but we used 200gr Hornady RNs.

Bulls Eye Gun Shop in Havelock, NC was out of the RNs one time and I get a few boxes of the 200gr Hornady SPs. The old guys were ready to Keel Haul me, but that is all that was available. And they worked fine, but a few of the old guys still didn't like those "Wrong" Bullets.

So, do whatever your Rules & Regs say to do. And if you are fortunate enough to get in with an old Hunting Club, just do what the ancient old folks recommend, they know what they are doing for the most part.