Which rifle to buy? Vanguards ar $390 while the Sub MOA's are quite a bit higher. Are they the same gun? Should I be able to get under MOA with a plain Vanguard?

My plain old $299 Vanguard in 300 Weatherby shoots better than I can. The factory target was just under 1 MOA.

Accuracy was so-so until I got rid of the tupperware stock, added a B&C Medalist stock, adjusted the trigger and discovered 180gr TSX bullets.

I think? the actions are the same. I speculate Weatherby picks out the best shooters, throws on a fancy stock and jacks up the price.

Unless you're getting a killer deal on the SUB-MOA model, I'd stick with the standard version. You can add the B&C Medalist stock later if needed.

Gratuitous picture of a Weatherby Vanguard

I think Zeke is right. The sub MOA's are simply actions that shot better in a machine rest before they ever slapped a stock on them. So they slap a fancier stock on those actions, stamp them MOA and up the price a couple of hundred bucks. IMO, the better plan would be to buy a standard vanguard and see how it shoots. If it doesn't shoot to your liking, try replacing the trigger with a Timney. If it still doesn't shoot up to expectations, tinker with the stock or replace the tupperware. My Vanguard varmint special (non-moa) shoots fine as is, but I will probably install a Timney trigger sometime before next summer.

The sub moa models use a pillar-bedded Fiberguard composite stock. That will increase the accuracy over the standard Vanguards. The question remains: is it worth the price increase? To some it may be worth it and that's fine. To others it may not and that's fine too.

2 years ago a friend of mine purchased the Vanguard SS in a .270 Win for $500. It shoots 1.25 inch groups at 100 yards using factory Federal 140g Bear Claws.

quote:

Originally posted by Zeke:
My plain old $299 Vanguard in 300 Weatherby shoots better than I can. The factory target was just under 1 MOA.

Accuracy was so-so until I got rid of the tupperware stock, added a B&C Medalist stock, adjusted the trigger and discovered 180gr TSX bullets.

I think? the actions are the same. I speculate Weatherby picks out the best shooters, throws on a fancy stock and jacks up the price.

I'm not a Vanguard guy by any means but what is the price difference betweent he regular and the Sub MOA? Because you just turned a $300 rifle into a $500 one by adding a stock that averages around $200.

taylorce1,

Do you know where a guy can get a Vanguard for $300? if so I want one.

Mark

No I don't, but Zeke said he paid $299 for his. Last I knew they were going for around $400 new around here. I know my friend paid around $325 for his .300 Win Mag for a used one off of gunbroker.com sorry that is the best I can do for you.

thanx,

$390 is the best I have found. I really want a stainless one, but the price gets way out of wack then. If I decide on the stainless I think it is just better if I get the Tikka T3 Lite Stainless, or Savage Weather Warrior.

What has been said here is essentially correct about the Sub MOA Vanguard's. It is a composite stock instead of tupperware and is pillar bedded. Basically they are "selected" components that proved to shoot well then they put them in a much better stock. Surprisingly, most of the standard Vanguards will shoot quite well right out of the box. I can barely improve over factory rounds with my handloads from a 257 Stainless Sporter. Nice small clover leafs with 3 different bullets.

Ken....

Mine was on the clearance rack at Wally World for $299.
This was just before Wally World decided guns were bad and started pulling them out of some of their stores.
I was in the right place at the right time.

I think? Bell & Carlson provides the composite stocks for the Vanguard. They look identical to the B&C stock I bought for mine.

I bought a Sub-MOA 300 Roy last year. If I had to to do again, I'd buy a regulart SS and put it in a medalist or maybe step up to a McMillan. The Sub-MOA's are the top 10% of the actions they test-fire before stocking. The stock is an upgrade, but it's a Medalist made for Wby. You get than and an engraved floor plate for the extra $300. So it's pretty much a wash as I see it. I'd opt for the standard and maybe upgrade the stock a bit more if I buy another one, which a 257 Roy has been calling my name.

David Walker

Wal-Mart from time to time for $299.

Academy if you have those locally have them for $399 everyday in limited calibers.

The price difference in a regular and a Sub MOA is approximately $300-$400 give or take a little off the shelf.

According to the Weatherby poster on the Weatherby site the sub moa's are modified B&C medalist stocks that are pillar bedded.

Yes Weatherby shoots it's vanguards in a special stock and picks the best ones to get the sub mao guarantee.

I have a standard Vanguard .257 Wby Mag and I have produced several sub-MOA hand loads. I don't think I'd spend the extra money. You can probably develop a sub-MOA load if you handload.

As I understand it, the factory fires one group of three shots and then decides what to call it. One three shot group with, obviously, one bullet and one powder charge tells you nothing except whether that gun liked that bullet, powder, and powder charge. Sort of like predicting the weather for the day by sticking your head out the window with your eyes closed at 6 am.

LWD

I bought a "normal" Vanguard Sporter in 270Win back in March. It shoots just about every cheap factory load under 1". It's better than I am in other words.

It works pretty much the way some folks have described above... Weatherby needs X amount of each caliber per month for Sub-MOA models. When the standard test firing yields X units that meet the sub-MOA requirement, all the rest become standard models.

My test target was about 3/4" with 130 gr ammo, which I get with both 130 or 150 grain factory loads.

With a 1.5 MOA guarantee on all standard models, do you need Sub-MOA in anything other than a varmint caliber?

quote:

As I understand it, the factory fires one group of three shots and then decides what to call it. One three shot group with, obviously, one bullet and one powder charge tells you nothing except whether that gun liked that bullet, powder, and powder charge. Sort of like predicting the weather for the day by sticking your head out the window with your eyes closed at 6 am.

At least on mine they tell you the bullet, the powder and the charge on the test target so you have something to go off of.

My .300 win mag was right at their maximum of 1-1/2" on the test target for non sub moa rifles. I've never had it shoot that bad so your mileage may vary.

There's a lot of companies who make rifles that are a lot more that their gaurantee goes as far as "Did it go bang?" I've experienced this one first hand.

At least with the vanguards if you can't get what they got you can send it back and they will look at or replace it.

I bought a sub MOA chambered in 338 Win Mag last spring and am very happy with it. What I wanted was an accurate turnkey rifle I didn't have to restock or work the trigger etc. I got just what I wanted.

I seriously considered a vanguard/sub moa last year before I got a deal on a mauser 98,which happily is also a sub moa shooter.
I was looking at the test targets provided with the weatherbys to help me pick one out.I wanted either a .270 or a 30-06,so when I saw one in those calibers,I would ask to see the test target.Some of the vanguards shot exceptional groups,ALL of the sub MOA did.One store had a dozen different ones,from 22-250 to 257 weatherby.Those two calibers had exceptional groups on their targets of just one hole slightly bigger than caliber size.

quote:

At least on mine they tell you the bullet, the powder and the charge on the test target so you have something to go off of.

When did you buy yours? I ask because a few years ago when I was seriously considering one all that was on the target was the bullet weight.

LWD

I just finished floating the barrel and glassing the tang and recoil lug on my Vangaurd.

This is quite the job...as there is a huge amount of extra plastic around the barrel and not near enough under the lug. Not to sure I want to glass under the chamber as I have on numerous rifles because there is a huge cavity under there that will require a large dose of glass.

The rifles are shot on fixtures at the factory without a stock the very good ones get the high quality stocks and the others get the standard plastic. Mine came with a target that printed 3 shots @ .750 but will not shoot this with any....and I mean any ammo I have run through her.

I don't dislike this rifle even though she isn't a tack driver it came with the light brown/marbled montycarlo stock and just feels good to shoulder. It was also a Wal-Mart bargain clearanced priced at $380.

Toped her off with a 3x9x40 VariX II at first then mounted the Nikon Monarch 3x9x40 you see in the picture with dual dovetail leupold mounts and rings that I line lapped. She is a 7mm Rem Mag. and a rock solid everyday 1 1/2" shooter.

LWD,

My SubMOA came with a small letter that explained the accuracy and testing info. On the backside of the letter is a list of calibers and factory loads they presumably used to test fire the rifles. The calibers listed are 22-250, 223, 243, 257, 270, 270 WSM, 7mm, 308, 30-06, 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag.

If you or anyone else wants to know which factory loads are on the list, just ask and I'll post it here.

quote:

I speculate Weatherby picks out the best shooters, throws on a fancy stock and jacks up the price.

According to an article in the Rifleman, the barreled actions arrive here from HOWA in Japan and are machine rested and grouped without a stock. The ones that shoot well under MOA are then srocked with a pillar bedded fibreglass stock and the price is about $750 retail. My plain, tupperware stocked Vabguard had a factory target that showed a group under 1" but I have not been able to duplicate that. I have a Richards laminate I'm going to put on it and see if it shoots better. Current groups are not bad but average about 1 1/2". It's a .300WSM.

"The rifles are shot on fixtures at the factory without a stock the very good ones get the high quality stocks and the others get the standard plastic. Mine came with a target that printed 3 shots @ .750 but will not shoot this with any....and I mean any ammo I have run through her."

Sorry, I guess if I had read all the posts I could have saved some keyboard time.

Like said in a different thread my Vanguard shot 1/2" groups with 20+yrs old 300gr Winchester Power point factory ammo, out of the box.
Nothing wrong with going cheep! Haven't done much loading yet, could always just duplicate the old Winchesters if all else fails!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Johan