"
The .358 Winchester is not a Magnum cartridge. If Winchester had slapped a belt on it or just called it a Magnum, it would be a more popular round today.

Comparing factory ammo, if you can find it, gives you the .358 Norma Magnum launching a 250 grain SP at a velocity of 2790 fps and 4322 ft/lb of energy, while the .358 Winchester's sole factory load (now discontinued) is the 200 gr. Silvertip load from Winchester at 2490 fps and 2753 ft/lb of energy.

The case length of the .358 Norma Magnum is 2.519". This is .331" shorter than a .375 H&H. Brass is not easy to find, nor is it inexpensive.

On the other hand, the .358 Winchester has a case length of 2.015", the same as the .308 Win/7.62x51 NATO. (In fact, necking .308 brass up to .358 is a one step affair.) This short length allows the cartridge to be used in short actions and usually short handy rifles and carbines. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a .358 Win with a barrel longer than 20".

The .358 Winchester is astoundingly accurate in many if not all instances. My .358 Win BLR is the most accurate rifle I've ever owned and one of the most accurate I've ever shot. Paco Kelly's experience with the .358 Win is very similar, and apparently so is Spike's experience.

The .358 Win might not have a belt, and it might not bellow, kick, and snort fire like some of the Magnums, but it is one helluva great cartridge. Don't let anyone try to convince you that it is a short range woods cartridge. If you miss anything out to 300 meters, it is the shooter's fault, not the cartridge."

Comments????

gs
Changed due to Lone Eagle: He's spec's are correct.

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 04-04-2002).]

American hunters are more interested in wants then needs. A 225 gr bullet @ 2500 fps is flat enough for 90+% of the shots we come accross, and it is also more gun then any of the 30 and unders, in real world situations.

But what happens, folks either wimper about a little bit of recoil, or just have to have 3000 fps at the muzzle. The real dethnell is that all 35 bores have been labled as woods cartridges, and those just don't sell.

Sorry Socrates, but the case lenght on a 375 H&H as listed in my Nosler Manual is 2.85". A .358 Norma Mag is the same length as a .338 Win thus they do not require a long magnum action, the '06 length serves just fine. As far as brass is concerned it can be formed quite easily from the same .338 Win Mag. BTW, I am a fan of the .358 Win. A 180 grain bullet at 2700 fps sounds like an '06 but is also what you get with the .358 Win. Sean

[This message has been edited by LoneEagle (edited 04-04-2002).]

I disagree with your thesis that the .358 Win. would be more popular if it had had a belt and been called "magnum". That's exactly what Remington did with the .350 Rem. Mag., and, if anything, it's deader than the .358 Win.

Elderguello: Point taken.

Wonder why the 35's are so poorly respected, when everyone that owns one, and uses it, think they are a GREAT caliber.???

gs

Because every time the press writes about a 35 it's labeled a woods cartridge. Nobody wants a woods cartridge, because they all envision themselves making those 400 yd shots offhand and need the flat shooting mega-magnum Elmer Fudd special to accomplish that. A slow moving 35 with a lot of bullet weight only kills things that are big and slow and close (if you're lucky). Just ask any sales clerk at Wally World. The fact that 99.99% of hunters (yes including me) couldn't actually make a shot like that (and really shouldn't be trying) has nothing to do with it. It's all sales pitch and sizzle, not function and practicality. Or, they just aren't enlightened yet. - Dan

I have had over 20 different rifles in various calibers and have found that the 350 Rem Mag is the greatest of all in my hands. I found that very little load development is required to shoot various weight projectiles to the same point of aim. I do not find the recoil any worse than a 30-06. I wish more people would discover this caliber as well.

I own many hunting rifles, but every year as opening day approaches my .358 Win. BLR works its way to the front of my safe. I t is a light handy rifle chambered for a cartridge that packs a lethal punch. My favorite load is the 200 gr. Hornady spire point with Winchester cases Fed 210 primers and 50.6 grs. of IMR 4320. I get 2500 fps with this load and 1.25� three shot groups off the bench at 100 yds.

Part of the reason for the .358 lack of popularity has to be the dismal marketing of this round by Winchester. It came out about the same time as the .243, which was much ballyhooed, by Winchester and the gun media. While the .358 was left to survive on its own merits while being unjustly bashed as a �woods� cartridge by the gun scribes.

Magnum mania was sweeping the country during the years the .358 should have been establishing a foothold. During that time anything with a muzzle velocity of less than 3000 fps was old hat. Why if you were hunting without that magnum super-blaster and the buck of your lifetime stepped out of the brush in the next county over, you would miss your chance and have to eat your tag.

The .358 Win. is a hunter�s rifle, not a shooter�s rifle. It is for people who still know how to get in closer to a game animal than 300yds and make the shot.

Well. the late Jack O'Connor certainly badmouthed the round. he felt it kicked too hard, called it nothing but a woods cartridge, the usual "It's a short range round." ad nauseum.
Socrates. The Ruger 77 was made in .358 and it, along with the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 had 22" barrels.
Recoil with fully loaded 250 gr. bullets is a bit stout in lightweight rifles, but the 200 gr. bullets don't kick that much. Neither bullet weight really thumps you that hard though. A great load in my Mod. 77 is 44.0 gr. of IMR-3031 with the 200 gr. Hornady or Sierra round nose bullet. (.75 inch average.) It'll do in any deer out to 200 yards. I've been hearding some good things about the 200 gr. Hornady spire point, so I'll give them a try as well.
The Ruger has a 1 in 16" twist barrel, and so far, it hasn't done too well with 250 gr. bullets. Maybe I'll just save those for my .35 Whelen.
I think the .358 Win. is just fine.
Paul B.

Actually, a couple of months ago there was a magazine article with a bunch of different writers articles in it. In that article O'Connor admitted to liking the round and thought it useful. That was posted on several boards at the time. If anyone knows where to find go ahead and post it. Sean

I have owned a .358 Savage 99,Ruger Bolt action and the Browning Lr.I also made a .358 Model 7 mannlicher by rechambering from the.35 Rem.I enjoyed all of them,although the Browning had the worst trigger.I had to get rid of them,because someone always wants to buy them.I also had a 35/284 I built on a
sako bolt action.They are all gone to make someone happy.
1geejay
http://www.shooting-hunting.com

When a larger caliber bullet hits game it usually has more effect than a smaller one provided adquate expansion happens. But this fact is hard to prove.

We read here all the time that some small caliber produces as much energy at some distance as a bigger one but in the real world the result is better with the big bullet.

Marketing counts for a lot but recoil is the major reason. Most game is the size of deer and the .308 Win is good enough.

We all have our favorites and the .358 Win is mine.

Socrates, I think D. belisle has hit upon something. They call 'em woods rifles, and people start thinking in terms of the .35 Remington or a lightlly loaded .45/70, and, of course, nothing could be farther off base when it comes to the .358 Win., or the .350 Rem, both great rounds!! I once had (AND SHOULD HAVE KEPT) a .358 BLR of the first design style. What a fine, accurate, powerful AND COMPLETELY SHOOTABLE little rifle it was!!

------------------
Larry

WOuld anyone care to venture an opinion about buidling a .358 Win. on a 1938 Turkish Mauser action? I'm looking for a round that will fit the action (head diameter, LOA, chamber pressure), and the .358 Win. seems to fit. Also, I'm told that I can do light handloads with .38/.357 bullets, which would make is that much more interesting to shoot.

Dog Wrangler,

You can also shoot cast bullets. That bore is big enough to have real effect on game.

I don't know anything about that action.

I would not pay a lot for a barrel. Maybe a Shaw bbl would be fine.

I might be wrong on this, but isn't it amazing that the most popular 35 bores are at the bottom of the power ladder??

I'm talking about .357 Magnum carbines and 35 Remington Marlin 336.

I've never owned a 358Win or 35Whelen, but they look like close to the perfect go anywhere do anything meat guns. I'm sure it will be a cold day in hell that a factory produced left-handed rifle in either cartridge will be produced.

Maybe a worthy project one day.

MM

Montana Marine. If I'd wanted a left hand Whelen, I'd try to locate a reasonbly priced Remington or Savage left hander and rebarrel.
I'm in the process of designing my third .35 Whelen right now, which I will commision as soon as I work out the details.
Remington and Ruger use a 1 in 16" twist and I want something a bit faster. I'm thinking 1 in 12". Right now, I have the Ruger 77 in the Whelen and an Oberndorf Mauser in Whelen as well. It has a 1 in 14" twist. As soon as I figure out which twist is best, I plan on building a Ruger #1 in .35 Whelen. I already have two Ruger 77's in .358 Win.
I like the .35's.
Paul B.

Montana Marine,

Your point about .35 bore could be turned to pistol calibers and the 9mm and .38 Special, both .35's are considered the minimum yet very effective calibers.

While Harald in his site says that a certain wound channel size is what is required I have always speculated that the .35 has far more real effect than smaller rifle calibers.

Perhaps this division is really at .33 but I have never used that caliber.

But for certain the 7mm's and .30's even at close range are quite ordinary in their effect in my experiance.

With a heated discussion going on in another thread as to if the .223 is adequate you can see than some really may not care about the effect on game.

I do suggest that the .35 fans here consider using 180 and 200 gr bullets on medium sized game. They kick a lot less and the effect is outstanding. You can always develop a heavy bullet load also.

The 180 gr Barnes X bullet or it's a similar bullet would be interesting if it would not foul the bore and would group.

While I have not worked with the Turkish version, I have built several rifles on the Yugo and VZ-24 actions and they worked out very well. The .358 Win. is an excellent choice for these actions, as is the 9mmX57 with a .358 bore instead of the traditional .356" used by Mauser. As for the "short range woods cartridge" stigma, so what, in four decades of hunting on five continents, i have taken just one shot that could be called "long range", and that was when I was much younger and much more foolhardy, it worked out ok, but since then I have learned to hunt better, get closer, and to never over reach my marksmanship ability.

When the opening day of deer season arrives I go past the custom rifles and pick up my Pre 64 FWT 358. I hunt in Michigans Upper Pennisula in a mixture of cedar swamp and farmland. With the 200gr Hornady I'm well equiped for a buck at 20yds or 200yds. I'm looking forward to trying the 225gr Ballistic tip.
If I draw a Colorado Elk tag the 358 will be the first rifle I go for.

I started my 35 caliber with a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. Everything I hit with it went down right there. Took a nice buck at over 200 yards by holding about a foot over his shoulder. He was dead where he stood. I didn't like the round nose bullets required by the tubular magazine of the Marlin - wanted a flater shooting cartridge. My local gunstore had a 358 Win BLR on the rack. When I saw it and the box magazine, I fell in love. It followed me home and I've been happy every since. I only wish it had a better trigger. I load the 225 grain Sierra BT over IMR4320 (forget the charge) for about 2400 fps - not a max load, but it prints 3 shots into 1.75 inches at 225 yards. I can't recall having to track anything I've hit with it either!

WayneC (VA)

I have owned and hunted with scads of different rifles over the years but my FAVORITE rifle to hunt deer with was a Marlin lever action .357 Magnum. I shot 9 deer with it and all one shot kills. 8 of the 9 never even took a step when hit. My secret? Get in close. All were shot 75 yds or under.

But I have ALWAYS wanted a .358 or even a .35 Remington. Still do!

If people want to poke fun at these calibers and call them "Woods Rifles," that's cool with me. Woods Rifle is NOT a derogatory term in my book. Last time I looked, the woods were where most of the deer, bear and elk lived!

I think I a better name for these calibers is "Hunter's Rifles." They aren't for the flashy shoot-and-pray long shots that cripple as much game as it kills.
The HUNTERS who choose the .35 bore are smart enough to know this. They actually HUNT their game to reasonable ranges and then there's not much question the rifle will do its part.

Most shooters fail to stop and consider that probably 90% of everything man has EVER killed with a hand held weapon was done under 100 yds or less. And I doubt that will change much in the next 100 years.

(I think I just talked myself into going and buying a new Marlin 35 Rem I know about!)

------------------
A well placed bullet is worth 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.

My first "wildcat" was a 35Whelen improved. I truly love that gun. When I saw at a local gun shop a 358 built on a Mexican action, I had to buy it. The 35's are much better than thier "foot pounds" would suggest. I have never had an animal take a single step when hit with a 358 diamiter bullet. Those who are wowed by 3000+ fps are missing on somethig. And you can add in the fact that most hunters can't hit worth sh** past 250-300 yards. I was trained as a sniper, and I still don't shoot game past 300yds. I can get closer.

There's a fine article on the .358 in the latest Barnes Manual ... if I do say so myself!

I shoot a .358 STA and have a buddy that shoots a .358 Win. He loves his rifle and I love mine. He teases me about having everything from the Win up, with reloading up the scale. I can load like a Win or I can load like an STA, or anything between the two. I shoot a 225 gr. North Fork at 3250 fps, a 250 gr. North Fork at 3100 fps, and a 270 gr. North Fork or 280 gr. Swift A-Frame at 3000 fps plus. Priming the two rifles I shoot for Alaska this fall. Good shooting.

------------------

I had a .358 norma mag made out of a douglas .35 cal barrel my dad gave me. I didn't know anything about the caliber but the guy I hunt with was always yapping about how great they are and ya know, he was right.