I have really been thinking about adding a 358 winchester to my collection now that ruger is coming out with the Hawkeye in the cartridge. My question is what real world velocities can I expect to achieve out of the 22" barrel.
Does anyone have chronoed velocities? I would mainly use 225gr and 250gr bullets. Do you think that 2400fps out of a 250gr bullet is possible and what would be max for the 225gr bullet. While I am at if if anyone has velocities for the 200gr bullet post them up to.

I have a 30-06 and a 35 remington. I dont really have the skill to be shooting at game over 300 yards so do you think there would be any advantage for either the 30-06 or the 358? Right now I just hunt whitetail but plan on hunting larger game with whichever caliber I choose, I also reload for whatever I shoot so factory ammo isnt a big factor.

This may help: My .358 has less perceived recoil than our 30.06. It's a very well balanced cartridge.
http://www.cpcartridge.com/358win-B.htm

Good luck and Merry Christmas. BT

I am in the process of completing my collection as well. I have a number of smaller caliber guns but am now looking at an Elk rifle. I would love to have both a .358 and a .338 Win magnum but cannot get them both. So the .338 winchester magnum looks more versatile if it has a 22 or 24 inch barrel. The Hawkeye looks very interesting and will probably be my next hunting rifle. I do not think you give up a lot of velocity with the .338 WinMag even with a 22 inch tube and I wish the Hawkeye had a 22 inch barrel! I just have not seen a gun in this caliber with a shorter than 24 inch barrel so I probably will have it shortened. All in all if you handload I am pretty sure that the .338 is the "do everything" in North America rifle.

My only problem with the 338 win would be increased recoil. I havent shot one but I do know that the .30-06 is getting near my recoil tollerence, it isnt that I cant handle the recoil but I enjoy shooting my rifles from the bench and I dont see me shooting something that recoils that much more then a few times. I only get to hunt with my rifles for a few weeks a year but I get to shoot them all the time. Also I dont really want to mess with a belted case and I just like the 35 cal. I figured that the 358 wouldnt have much more recoil then the 06 (maybe even less). I really wish that ruger was putting out the whelen because I think that would give me the power I want and still not be to much more recoil then the 06.

JB, the .338 Win is a more more aggressive recoiling rifle then the dainty '06.

I have a Browning BLR that I have been working up 200 grain bulleted loads for. The rifle is straight stocked and very light so yes it has more felt recoil than my 30-06 using 150 grain bullets. Were I to compare it to the 06 using full power 200-220 grain hunting loads then I think the 06 would kick more. I havent tried the 250 grain bullets in my 258 yet but am sure things would change a bit then.

What if load the 338 with 200 grain bullets at 2600 or so feet per second? It cannot be that much more recoil that the 180 in 30-06?

Since you can get 2600 fps out of a 30-06 with a 200 grain bullet the real question would be why do it with a 338 Win mag? I will say that if you are trying to compare the recoil bertween a 338 magnum and the 30-06 let me assure you that with full power loads the 338 is in a different class recoil wise than the 30-06. I fooled around with a 338 for a while and using loads that actually provided more performance than the 06 recoil was much heavier.

Cartridge - Rifle weight - recoil energy - recoil velocity.



.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700) 8.0 20.3 12.8
.300 Rem. SAUM (180 at 2960) 8.25 23.5 13.6
.300 WSM (180 at 2970) 8.25 23.8 13.6
.300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960) 8.5 25.9 14.0
.300 Wby. Mag. (150 at 3400) 9.25 24.6 13.1
.300 Ultra Mag. (180 at 3230) 8.5 32.8 15.8
7.62x39 Soviet (125 at 2350) 7.0 6.9 8.0
.303 British (180 at 2420) 8.0 15.4 11.1
.32 Spec. (170 at 2250) 7.0 12.2 10.6
8x57 Mauser (170 at 2360) 8.0 12.9 n/a
.325 WSM (200 at 2960) 8.0 32.8 16.2
8x68 S (150 at 3300) 8.5 25.3 13.9
.338-57 O'Connor (200 at 2400) 8.0 19.2 12.4
.338 Win. Mag. (250 at 2700) 9.0 33.1 15.4
.340 Wby. Mag. (200 at 3100) 10.0 29.6 13.8
.338 Ultra Mag (250 at 2860) 8.5 43.1 n/a
.357 Mag. (158 at 1650) 7.0 4.7 6.6
.35 Rem. (200 at 2050) 7.5 13.5 10.8
.35 Whelen (200 at 2675) 8.0 22.6 13.5
.350 Rem. Mag. (200 at 2700) 8.5 22.3 13.

I have a pe64 in .338 maggie and a Sako L579 carbine in .358win. With like weight bullets at standard hunting velocities per cartridge and as issued gun weights, the .338 kicks a whole bunch harder than the .358. Shoot them blind folded and your chipped teeth will leave no doubt as to which was which.
At 300 yards and in..and especialy for 200 and under, I carry the .358 Sako. It's lighter, handsome and will make a big impression on anything it plows through. BT

I had a Savage 99 in 358 win a long time ago....I hand loaded for it and shot my first deer with it and one of my hand loads......A 250 gr Hornady spire point...........Hal Waugh relly liked the 358 win...... I don,t think you can get 2400 fps from the round with a 250 gr bullet unless you use a longer barrel.... But there is nothing wrong with 2300 fps with a 250 gr bullet....

i just got an savage99 in 358 and 250gr ammo from norma shoots like a dream i also shoot a 30-06 with 220's i find them similar from the bench. not to bad but in the field i think the 358 is not as noticable. just mop

My comment on loading the .338 Win Mag down with 200 grain bullets was in thinking about using "one"rifle for deer thru whatever. With 33.1 (foot-pounds)of recoil energy it is significant, but I shoot a 3 inch magnum 12 guage pump shotgun with no problem, it cannot be worse thatn that?

I have shot the 358 Win for a long time. If the ranges are not too long then it will work just fine. A nice thing about it is that it's a real short action cartridge and can be made up into a handy rifle.

I have passed up 338 WM's and will continue to do so as the rifles are too long and heavy for woods use. One could be loaded down however. I even have a supply of Hornady 200 gr flat noses.

Recoil data matters in the same type rifle. However the modern straight stocks and Decelerator pads are a greater factor than any data.

My 358's have 22' barrels and as long as the LOP is not too long for me they are handy. I worked up loads for a Ruger .358 cut to 19" and it lost 75 fps and made more blast.

The 358 Win is not a light kicking round but it's very effective. It's just a notch above the 30-06 and 7mm RM at woods ranges and it does not need premium bullets on most game.

I continue to wrestle with the .358 vs .338 Win Magnum. The Hawkeye is offered in both. As a gun that would primarily be used for an occasion that I should have to pay a non insignificant sum of money for a shot at an animal I have long desired to hunt (elk)I just would think that the .338 WM makes more sense than the .358! The .338 WM just seems more versitile to me. What can the .358 do that the 30-06 cannot? To my understanding the .338 wm can do more than the 30-06 and at a longer distance than the .358 winchester. Please accept my apologies I am not trying to hijack this discusion, it just seems like the Hawkeye is offered in both calibers and I am trying to decde how to waste more of my money and on which one? Maybe I should just buy both!

I may have missed it but at last look Ruger didn't include the 358 in their Hawkeye. I hope I just missed it or it was updated. If they did build it, was there a 1/12" twist or that rediculous 1/16"? Packy

the all weather 22 inch barrel, 1/12 twist. catalog #HKM77RFP 358 win. The same is in 24 inch 338 win mag.

Coaltrain:

It looks like you live in Georgia.. If so, IMO the .358 is the way to go.

You'll spend way more time hunting Ga. whitetail and hogs, by far. If the opportunity to hunt elk should arise, the .358win loaded with one of the better 200 to 225gr bullets will do an outstanding job for you.

I've killed 6 bulls with a .338 mag and have absolutly no complaints. One bull with my .358win and again..no complains.
Either inspires great confidence that I can get a bullet into the living room via the shoulders and (hopefully)out the other side.

Unless you "know" your going to be hunting country where the shooting is commonly over 300 yds...then one is as good as the other IMO. If the range is on the long side, the .338 and 210 noslers will get the nod.

I've yet to kill an elk past 100 yds here in Oregon. I kill em with pointy sticks now.

The .358 makes way more Georgia sense to me. Smaller, lighter, handier, quieter and cheaper. All your dead critters will have two big holes in them. BT

Hello
Your original question was, can you get 2400fps out of a 250 gr. bullet in a .358 Win with a 22" barrel.
No. Not safely.
I bought a Mod 99-358 back in the seventies and have been chronographing loads also since the seventies.
Following the loading manuals closly I found 45.0 grs of H-335 to be the most accurate and highest velocity load with 250 gr. bullets in the .358. Velocity averages around 2260 fps.
BTW Factory .358 250gr. Silver-Tips averaged 2210 fps.

When taking game under 200 yds I can't ask for more in a big game cartridge.

If you are interested in taking game at longer ranges then you might consider a .338 which is also an outstanding big game round.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by jbadams66:
I have really been thinking about adding a 358 winchester to my collection now that ruger is coming out with the Hawkeye in the cartridge. My question is what real world velocities can I expect to achieve out of the 22" barrel.
Does anyone have chronoed velocities? I would mainly use 225gr and 250gr bullets. Do you think that 2400fps out of a 250gr bullet is possible and what would be max for the 225gr bullet. While I am at if if anyone has velocities for the 200gr bullet post them up to.

I have a 30-06 and a 35 remington. I dont really have the skill to be shooting at game over 300 yards so do you think there would be any advantage for either the 30-06 or the 358? Right now I just hunt whitetail but plan on hunting larger game with whichever caliber I choose, I also reload for whatever I shoot so factory ammo isnt a big factor.

Welcome to the forum JB. This time I will try to answer your questions rather than talk about my 358's.

You already have the right cartridges with the 35 Rem. for home and the 30-06 for anywhere you go! Like myself most of us have limited funds in one way or another. So save up for your dream hunt, rifle or handloading gear.

For a long time I considered the pre 64 M70 Featherweights and the Savage 99F's to be the best rifles for hunting that one could have for my purposes. Turns out I was right if I don't say so myself. However things have changed. Not only have I become older but a new generation of rifles are finally available at reasonable cost. These new rifles have softer recoil pads and straighter stocks and therefore kick less. They are lighter however and easier to carry and many are available in SS and composite so they are more weather resistant.

There have been premium bullets available for a long time now so the change in what cartridge is more or less effective has not changed much but there are more premium bullets and some gaps have been filled.

What I am saying is to take a much closer look at whats available in all of the rifles that are now out. Also I doubt that many of us, including myself, have even seen a Hawkeye let alone most of the other rifles.

In your search I would include the Kimber 8400 Montana in either 300 WSM or 270 WSM. This is the premier modern magnum today. You may not like that rifle and if you don't look at others. I am sure other members will suggest their favorites.

The most economical thing to do would be to tune up your 30-06, as long as it's not a 740, and put a Decelerator pad on it if your handy.

BT, I would love to own a .358 Win, and I do hunt in Georgia! I hunt mostly with .243win - 30-06 and none have failed me! I have a light 7 1/2 pound with scope 30-06 with a 3.5 -10 Kahles on it that wears a synthetic stock and shoot very reasonably! I just cannot for the life of me see what in GA the .358 would handle that a .308 would not...and believe me I have had this internal discusion more than once! If you feel that the .358 winchester shades the 30-06 with 250 grain bullets on Elk, this is valuable information as I do not really love getting the Pxss kicked out of me by a hard recoiling gun, I just would accept it if required. If that is the direction to go, then why not the 350 remington magnum??

If you are looking for 2400+ fps from a .35, look at the Whelen or the .350 RM. I've been shooting an 18.25" barrel Ruger 77MKII and am right at 2500 fps with a variety of 250 grain bullets and have not even maxed out yet. With a 22" tube you should be cracking 2600 fps.

If you don't mind long actions get the .35 Whelen. Much easier to load for than the .350 RM and will take longer bullets like the 225 grain Nosler BT that the .350 can't handle in most short action guns... With the right .35 Whelen, like a Remington 700 CDL you can sell the 06 and the .35 Remington and have no need for the hard kicking .338. And you can plink, practice and hunt small game with downloaded pistol bullets...

Bob...a .35 fan.

Jimmy,

Your right. There's really nothing gained by using the .358 over the '06 or .308 in Georgia. Hit em where they live and their dead. Simple as that.

You won't see me using 250 gr bullets in my .358 for elk or anything else. There are some very fine 200-225gr bullets that work quite well.
A bullets job is to penetrate,expand and disrupt tissue. It doesn't matter how much the bullet weighs after it exits the games body.
A TSX or Partition will do just fine, along with others.

If I need more weight, for whatever reason, I'll carry the .338 and 250 Noslers @ 2700fps.

RJM is right. The 35 Whelen is more practical for the 250 gr bullets. If you want to use heavy bullets at that speed and aren't allergic to long actions rifles, the Whelen is a better bet.

I live where elk live and so have elk specific rifles. That said, I'd gladly hunt elk with my .270 and good bullets in a heart beat. You don't "need" a cannon. You just need to shoot them where they live. BT

The more I think things over, the more I think that I want the whelen over the 358. I dont mind long actions at all and I dont see the 358 really providing any performace increase over my 35 rem or 30-06. I would go with the 350 rem mag but the shells cost more and I dont want to get into loading a rimmed cartridge. About how much does it cost to rebarrel a ruger action? I dont really care for the remington safeties, just like three position safeties more. I would just have to work up to full recoil loads and see if I can keep the accuracy, I shoot 3.5 in 12ga shells for duck hunting and the recoil doesnt bother me but I am only shooting at targets 20-40 yards out and dont have to be moa accurate.

The .35 Whelan makes the most sense of all...

JB...if you are thinking about rebarreling the 30-06 you have you might also looking into having the current tube just rebored. For the heavy 250 grain bullets just ask for a 1/12 twist and you are all done...

The .350 RM isn't a "rimmed" case it is a "belted" magnum just like the .338 is...and if you don't want to reload for it the .35 Whelen is a much better way to go because Remington is the only maker of rounds and they are only available in 200 grains. There are some custom makers who make loads in 200-250 grain weight but if they went out of business so goes your rifle...

Maybe now that Ruger is marketing both a .350 RM and a .358 Winchester they will bring back the .35 Whelen also...one can only hope...

Bob

RJM, thanks for picking up my mistake. I dont know why I said rimmed.

How much would a rebore job generally cost?

I can't say how much a rebore might cost. I guess it would depend on who did the job. One thing to consider though is the thickness of your current barrel. If it isn't thick enough, some who do rebores will refuse to do the job, at least the ethical ones will.
Just a few comments of my own as I am coming into this thread late. One, the .358 isn't the slouch that the "egg-spurts" in the gun rags claim it to be. Two, it may not be loaded to it's true potential by the factories. At least one person seems to think that is the case, and I may be in agreement with him. I believe that this is also the case with the .35 Whelen. I have five rifles chambered to the .358 and three to the Whelen. I've been doing most of the handloading experiments so far with the Whelen and it can be handloaded to a higher level than factory. My best guess is when remington brought the Whelen out, they kept pressure levels low for two reasons. One, there are a lot of old 1895 Winchesters and 1903 Springfields that were converted to the Whelen. I passed on an 1895 Winchester that had been rebored to the Whelen, so I know they are around. I have two articles stored in my files; one on the .358 Win. and the other on the .35 Whelen by a gentleman named Paco Kelly. I have worked up to his top load with a 250 gr. bullet in the Whelen with H-335 and presures not only seem mild but brass has held up well.
If you would like copies of the two articles, E-mail me and I'll send them to you.
As far as recoil and the .338 Win. Mag., I have two rifles chambered to that round and it's not all that bad. Start out shooting only a few rounds from the bench for a while. Gradually increase the amount you can comfortably shoot and it probably won't be a problem.
FWIW, neither the .358 Win. or .35 Whelen are the short and medium range brush guns they are reputed to be. If on an elk hunt, depending on the terrain where I would be hunting, My first choices would be either the .338 or .35 Whelen in no particular order. If on an elk hunt like one I did on Washington's Olympic Penninsula, the .358 Win. in a short fast handling rifle would be about perfect. A 250 gr. bullet would be my bullet of choice.
One thing I have noticed is the .35 calibers, other than the .35 Remington, get no respect, at least from those who have not used the rounds. (.358 Win. and .35 Whelen. That includes the .350 Rem. mag. as well.) Barrel twist rate is haywire as well. In the .358, Winchester used a 1 in 12" twist as did Savage and Browning. Why Ruger went to the 1 in 16" twist is beyond me. Remington did the same with the Whelen and Ruger followed suit, a 1 in 16" twist rate when Whelen and Howe used the 1 in 12". Methinks some people had their heads up their rectal orifaces. The Whelen was designed to shoot bullet from 250 gr. to 300 gr. for heavy game. The fact that 200 gr, bullets also shot well was just serendipity.
I have rifles in all three cartridges, and if forced to choose one would be difficult.
Paul B.

Is there a factory barreled rifle in 35 Whelan that has a 1/12 twist? If not I am right back to where I started. The way it is looking now for my intended use I am probably going to get a .300 Win Magnum. On the other hand a Ruger Hawkeye in .338 win mag and 250 grain noslers at 2500 fps or so and with the barrel cut off to 22 inches and a decent Leupold VXIII in 3.5 x 10 by 50 in steel tally rings would do fine for whatever I came across, fish or fowl....

Some of us think the best .358 ever made was the Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine in that caliber, and maybe that is true, try to lay your hands on one today. Have an acquaintance in Alaska who hunts regularly with one and has taken a huge B&C Moose with it. Given my experience with Mannlicher carbines, this probably IS an outstanding choice, and I wish I could find one. (The why do I need another caliber to reload for, I have too many already, and a six year backlog of rifles to blood on deer)
LLS
Mannlicher Collector

For what it is worth, I've owned and shot the 35's all but the Norma. I've settled on the Whelen and love it. It does kick a little with 250's, which will just about hit 2500 out of my Ruger 77 (22 inch). I could not hit 2500 with 225's in my 358, but truthfully, I have not noticed any difference with good hits between the two on whitetails. With the exception of one, with my 356, they have all been under one hundred yards. Probably other than the 35 Rem, I'm using a sledge hammer to drive carpet tacks.
Blfly

Ive got a Whelen and a 358 and they are both great rounds.

Imagine a 30-06 class rifle optimixed for use as a woods rifle and what you end up with is the 358 winchester.

The bigger bore gives you similar energy levels as an 06 would with heavy bullets, but the recoil is more of a thud than a sharp stinging blow.

The Whelen is like a 358 on steroids, it really shines on the heavy work. But still I agree that there are very few circumstances in which I would actually go with a 250 gn load, thats some serious medicine for things that fight back. I think the 220-225 gn loads are about perfect for Elk and such.

Actually given similar bbl lengths and using the lighter rounds the 358 can compare quite well with a Whelen, but mine are 20" vs 24" which gives the Whelen a significant edge velocity wise, but I much prefer the 358 while hiking around.

In the end you need to get whatever puts a smile on YOUR face though..