Just reading the lates Army times and the Army is going to replace the M-24 with a new sniper rifle it is the XM110 semiautomatic. It is made by Knight Armament Co. It looks like a m-16A2 but it is a 7.62 with a 20rd magazine with a 20 inch barrel and it comes with a leupold 3.5x10 and bipod. With a scope and Bipod and a 20rd magazine it wieghs 15 lbs, the M-24 with scope, bipod and 6 rds weighs 17 lbs. They say the maximum range will be equals if not better than the M-24. But they will be unable to field it for the time being because Remington is protesting the selection of the rifle to replace there M-24. This weapon was selected based off the recommendations from Soldiers in combat. So hopefully Remington will drop there protest so my fellow Soldiers will get this weapon soon.

John

This is a sincere question.Are we talking short to modest range sniping here or the full range gambit with a (presume) 7.62x51?
Where does this propaganda come from that truely learned and experienced troopers are saying this is their requested pantasia? Sure they want and deserve something more adequate, but do any of you who have been in this arena for any length of time really believe this is it? When Donkeies Fly.This is just another thin skinned Hummer.

Do any staff,cabinet members or top level polititions have vested interest in Knight Armament?

How did the survey of America's top 50 long range competition shooters come out? What was learned from these gifted few? Are they using 7.62x51 with 20" barrels?

What survey you ask? Me too roger

I've got a flat top AR-15 style rifle in .223 and it's amazingly easy to get hits waayyyy out there. I've always thought a similar .308 would be a quantum leap better.

Hope the guys in dangers way get the best gear we can make for them.

The Navy SEALs have been using this rifle since the late 90's. According the article I read snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan have asked for a semiautomatic sniper rifle.

John

The 7.62 nato is an excelent sniper round, under most conditions while barrel length makes
some difference it does not make much. In the hands of an expert marksman it is acurate and lethal out to well past 1000 yards, and for specialized missions you can allways go to a specialized rifle...tj3006

Been out of the game for a lot of years, but the M24 was great for 3 or 4 shots, then it began to walk around. I can only see that happening faster with a semi-auto. There is a LOT to be said for a quick second shot without loosing sight picture. Use the new 7.62 inside 800 meters and the 50 cal beyond you have a real team to put TANGO down!!

I think the nature of the current war is driving this. The M-24 came out of experience in Viet Nam. A different War and a different order of battle. The Russians fielded the SVD since the 1960's and while a lot of people laughed at it, it prove to be a very useful rifle for the kind of Urban Warfare that we are now engaged in. Say what you will, the Russians know urban warfare, better than most. A light weight Semi Auto 7.62 x 51 that is shootable, may just be the ticket. As far as I am conserned about this, Army/Marine and Seal Snipers should be able to select a rifle for the job at hand. What ever they want they should get. The rifles are fairly cheap.

Gentlmen
Looks like a Walter WA-2000 clones are back
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=799

Cheers
/JOHAN

civilian model is call SR-25 - had one for quite a while now. Shoots about .6-.75 if I do my part. Don't know what they're worth today, but at the time I think I paid something like 2500 for it.

So, one similar to this??
- mike

Does anyone know why Remington is protesting the selection? Knowing a little bit about contracting in the DOD environment, that usually means legal issues, and improper awarding of the contact.

I would like to know about that detail.

I woukdn't be concerned about the protest, these are usually resolved in 90-180 days. If Remington has valid legal grounds it might mean that the current contract is null and void, but the contracting office can place another, with altered selection process, which the semi-auto is a threshhold requirement, not a objective, which Remington won't be able to compete with a bolt rifle.

The protest process is a tool used in our DOD contracting regularly, is a protection safeguard to keep the DOD procurement on the up and up, and prevent corruption in procurement. It prevents deep poceted contractors wining and dining top brass and contracting officers, who award sole source contracts based on who bought ne dinner last night, Very routine actually but seldom exercised by industry because from the contractors side you better have a pretty rock solid reason, and its a big expense. I don't have percentages but its a 50/50 shot at best for Remington, and from the contractors side they won't even bother filling unless they are seeing 80+ odds in their favor.

I wouldn't despair though if the Army wants these rifles, they will get them, just it might not be on this contract vehicle. It will just add a few months to the mix.

Again details would be of interest but those are probaly going to be held closely until the protest is settled for legal reasons.

Contractors I know who have filled protests in recent memory include, Boeing, Northrup, L3, Lockheed, and Raytheon. My point is here notice the pattern, deep pockets, I am not sure Remington has the free dollars to get serious in this.

Yes, its the military version of the Knight SR-25.

As we know, they've been using a lot of M14s in Iraqistan in a designated marksman/squad marksman role, as well as M16A4s with scopes.

I hope they dont totally abandon the M24, but merely add the SR-25 to the stew of weapons to choose from.

SR-25s generally sell from 2500-6000 depending on options and how much its been shot. I recently saw one for sale that had never been out of the wrapper.

It's head and shoulders above the Dragunov for accuracy even though I would envision them in a similar role. Think of it as a peer to the PSG-1.

I'm kinda surprised though with the SCAR-H so close on the horizon.

Isn't the American Piggy Bank empty now? I know 1200 to 1400USD per unit is cheap but....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
This is a sincere question.Are we talking short to modest range sniping here or the full range gambit with a (presume) 7.62x51?

From my earlier post the question really is when the word sniper is used do you include ranges beyond 400 yards in the picture that is painted in your mind? In my minds eye the .308 does not fit in this picture. Right now on this forum is a thread being discussed on 400 and 500 yard shooting. My contention falls in line with the majority of thinking on this thread. The rainbow trajectory of the .308 enumerated by a 20" barrel would not even be an also ran on this thread.

IMHO the Knight might be a great first and second shot weapon out to 300 yards under combat conditions but that is the extent of it.I think there should be more semi auto 50 sniper rifles used in Iraqy type terrain. roger

Or take a hint from our British friends and go with the .338 Lapua

quote:

In the hands of an expert marksman it is acurate and lethal out to well past 1000 yards, and for specialized missions you can allways go to a specialized rifle...

You mean like a 155mm howitzer??

If they want a semi auto "sniper" rifle, just reissue M14s, accurized, with a good scope.

The real issue that I see is that they're wasting so much time and money on this new piece of junk while they have perfectly good long distance weapons available, and could be using those resources to replace the 5.56.

quote:

Originally posted by crazy_quik:
Or take a hint from our British friends and go with the .338 Lapua

YES!!!!!!!!!!! roger

quote:

Originally posted by Steel Slinger:
If they want a semi auto "sniper" rifle, just reissue M14s, accurized, with a good scope.

Question: Is this new rifle for actual sniper teams or for the squad designated marksman? I can see the benefit of having a semi auto rifle for this application. Having one that at a glance appears like a standard issue piece ( M-16A2) would confuse the enemy and reduce counter fire directed against Squad DM's.

One of the "benefits" of the M24 was it's a long action receiver. Supposedly, rifles are changed over from 7.62 NATO to .300 Win Mag when needed. In practice I doubt this happens often. If the SR-25 works out the M24's should be rebarreled to the Win Mag.

This rifle will be issued to the observer part of the sniper team initially. Commonality of ammo, and all that.

Reed Knight is very well oiled in the defense procurement arena. The SR-25 is the best $3,000.00 semi-auto precision rifle available for $6,000.00.

Remington is protesting because they have a candidate rifle that is essentially the same, but costs a bit less, and comes with a better suppressor (made by Surefire).

Knights has better knee pads, and have been at this particular trough for a long time. It will be hard to displace them. Their quality has slipped some of late.

The shooters in the ashtray have been hoping for this rifle for a long time.

If you go over to http://www.ar15.com you can get the blow by blow on this deal.

When I was in the ARMY, I used the M14 and that gun was good to 500 yds. That was back in the 60's. I know the 300 is good to 800yds and the 338 is good to 1000 to 1200. The 50 cal. is good for a mile or so it can take down planes also.

I'm all for the M14 or an M1A1 for DM and actually there are quite a few of these deployed now. The thing is we don't need a buch of money spent for developement. SA has the M1A1 available, the AR10 is available, as are others. We'd get more done with less politics!

I used an M1A1 when I was in the Navy about 13 years ago. We were even on the same real estate they are chewing now. The M1A1 works fine, and doesn't get "dirty to the point of non-funtion nearly as quick. The jerkoffs that they're up against don't have the balls to confront them and look for a DM to take out. They're blowing up whoevers around. I don't think the average joe is getting real news from the front so most of what makes the news is for your entertainment. Nate

I remember a while back, when we here in OZ were still allowed to own self loaders, I had a VERY accurate M1A, the one that came from the factory with the Douglas BBl and decent bedding. Dunno how useful it would be in the sandbox, but it would hold a 5" group at 600m all day (or at least until I screwed up!).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the same sort of thing issued as the M 21, and now the DMR?
Why not start handing them out, if not to snipers, the to the better shots, even at squad level? It doesn't seem to make any sense to piss away ha heap of time and money playing around with something which may not work as well as a rifle which is proven to work well.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Sorry to offend anyone who's a big fan of Knight's, but if you publish info on the "net" it isn't a trade secret anymore...

This document and any document herein and thereof contains unpublished proprietary
information and trade secrets of Knight’s Armament Company and is the property of
Knight’s Armament Company. By accepting possession of this document the recipient
agrees to keep confidential this document and information this document and the
information contained herein and to make no copies, transcriptions or any use of this
document or the information contained herein except as authorized in writing by Knight’s
Armament Company and to safe keep this document and return it to Knight’s Armament
Company upon demand.


PS. If you read "Black Magic" you'll see that the 5.56mm is winnng a lot of the high power long range service rifle matches...

just to add a note to the whole discussion. I wouldn't want the auto, rather take a bolt anyday. You know as a sniper you're kind of out there all alone, and one of the objectives is to take a shot and not have the enemy know where it came from. call it self preservation, but we usually didn't take more than 1 shot from a location, and the extra noise and movement from the auto can be seen.

The SR-25 rig has been in the Spec Ops community for many years now in one form or another. Many are configured not for long range work, like these 20" models for example.

Procurement is changing very quickly these past few years so I guess nearly anything COULD happen but I can say firsthand that a 20" .308 is far from being a long-range rig even if the shooter's up to it! The ballistics just aren't there!

BTW, Remmy was on board from the beginning with the 338 Lapua in their SR8 rifle. It's a very capable rig but finding and training troops to take advantage of its qualities is, um, challenging.

We'll see, huh?

Redial

quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
This is a sincere question.Are we talking short to modest range sniping here or the full range gambit with a (presume) 7.62x51?

From my earlier post the question really is when the word sniper is used do you include ranges beyond 400 yards in the picture that is painted in your mind? In my minds eye the .308 does not fit in this picture. Right now on this forum is a thread being discussed on 400 and 500 yard shooting. My contention falls in line with the majority of thinking on this thread. The rainbow trajectory of the .308 enumerated by a 20" barrel would not even be an also ran on this thread.

The M 14 IS Accurate at 500 yds and more. We were issued Rem 700's with a "heavy" barrel and a 3x9 Redfield. Kills were made at 800 meters+
Are there better rds? More than likely but untill the 300H&H the 06 ran 1000yd matches.
The .308 Will Work. People are not thick skinned
game.
In 1918 At Belleau Wood The Germans expected to be fired on at 300-400 yds and felt free to advance. Marines had the new Springfield and opened fire at over 500 and killed the hell out of them.

I know for a fact the M14 is capable to 800M for use on people. People fall out pretty easy.

Like always though, what works in the field isn't really what drives the deciding factors! Politics usually has more to do with the final call. I too believe the M14 should be handed out like candy. I think we should keep the media jerks out of there and hit whoever looks like a bad guy. They shouldn't care anyway as "Allah" likes us to kill them!

We'll see is right. If they really want to look into a new & IMPROVED "sniper" rifle then they should be asking the snipers what they want. Nate

BigNate, that's easy! Something that shoots 50 BMG, recoils like an M4 and weighs about 4 or 5kg, and has no muzzle signature.
Seriously, I think, given the choice, I would go with a 300mag, given the possibility of targets way out past 800m. Maybe the AI, if they are still being made. I did like the bolt action, bullpup Barrett 50 that I saw (I don't recall the designation, I think it was the model 90?), nice and compact, for a 50, but still too heavy for a stalk. Good from a fixed postion though.
But I guess you get used to what you use, the AI's we had are great.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum.

I think this is more a reponse to the present state of war in Iraz & the possible future combat in the middle east. Soldiers are finding that house clearing and the need for a scoped marksman w/ every squad is much different than the open battlefield.

The lack of punch of the 5.56 out of the M4 16" barrel has led to the 6.8. The later is not as good at 400M, but far superior "up close & personal."

They are also finding that a scoped M4 or 16 just doesn't have the precision that they need to take out a guy in a widow 300-400M up the street. The bolt gun doesn't have the "firepower" to deal w/ multiple targets. Hence, a precision 20" barreled, 7.62 is near perfect.

I suspect they will serve w/ the true sniper rifle. Bolt guns in 7.62, .338, .50 will still serve w/ the two man teams that find LOOOONG distance is the next best thing to being there.

There are definately some very real differences in what equipment will work best, especially over there. The traditional "sniper" roll would best be served in two man teams, one with a long range weapon and the spotter with an M14. In my eyes, this is ideal for that situation.

When we get into the house to house thing, 3-400 isn't that far and an acurate rifle thats handy is most suitable. I'd actually think an AR10, M14, or even an AR15 that is set up for a scope ( like the Bushmaster) would work well. I'd personally want the bigger bullet but could do the job with 5.56mm if need be.(a little to weak for the distance though IMOH) The thing is warfare has changed drastically when compared to fighting an army. We now face civillian dressed creatins who can't be engaged on a "battlefield" but rather perform a quick ID, target aqisition , and place the hit. I like a bolt gun as well, but after using the M14 I'm also sure that in this role it would be my choice.
In fact, I'd like to get a S.A. Nat'l Match, put a scope on it and I'd be set. They work well and are very accurate. That powder type sand doesn't disable them as easy either.

This is back to the "I heard" thing though. "adopting" a new sniper rifle means different things to different people. The 6.8 may be a decent round for a DM in the right platform, but not a sniper rifle. I'd like to know how they are going to avoid supply problems with the new round. And if your the only guy in your squad carrying the thing there is no interchangeability.

I have been out of the service for a while so it may have changed a lot. But what I remember is that nothing went as planned. Even when we weren't being shot at. Nate

Don't mind me but if you want "long range"
there is no good reason to stick with 30caliber.

there is a real good arguement for using something like a 7mmRemMag (with appropriate 140gr bullets)

Certainly more "reach out and touch" than a 7.62x51
less recoil than a 300WinMag and with 140-150gr bullets
should have more than adequate ballistic performance.

AllanD

I am a fan of the bolt action rifle for general long range shooting, but there are certain times when the semi automatic rifle cannot be beat.

One such time is when the "sniper" must engage several hostile targets at a distance greater than 200 meters.

When this is the case, you will want to send a prodigious amount of lead, with decent accuracy, down range to the intended hostiles in fairly short order.

Another time that the semi automatic would come in handy would be when confronted by several hostiles at close proximity. In this case the semi could be used like the standard battle rifle.

The bolt action will always be the MOST reliable, but the benefits of the semi cannot be overlooked.

They have a new one out now it looks like the 45 ACP but it is a little bigger and it is 50 caliber. I don't know what weight bullet it was shooting but it was going 800 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Don't mind me but if you want "long range"
there is no good reason to stick with 30caliber.

there is a real good arguement for using something like a 7mmRemMag (with appropriate 140gr bullets)

Certainly more "reach out and touch" than a 7.62x51
less recoil than a 300WinMag and with 140-150gr bullets
should have more than adequate ballistic performance.

AllanD

I don't get where you're coming from really. If the shooters have a choice the .308, the .300 WM,.300 Kong, .338 Lapua have all been put out there as viable candidates. The Barrett puts them all in the back of the bus when it comes to long range! I know what you are saying (7mm has good merit), but getting them to adopt another rifle that doesn't do anything different is not going to be worth it.

The rumor of the Army "adopting a new sniper rifle " isn't really enough to go on. When they say sniper rifle to me the range starts at 500m and goes out past 1000m. What are they really getting? Urban combat is so different from open terrain combat that the equipment needed is entirely different as well. CQB equipment with large amounts of ammo and water are way more important than range.
Really in the Mid East right now, a DM with a scoped semi-auto in 7.62 would be the ticket I think. Adopting a DM rifle thats based on the same lower reciever as the m16 and chambered for 6.8mm would be fine in concept. But how do you get the supply system set up to distibute the ammo? How do you air-drop the right ammo? Right now if you drop NATO 5.56,7.62, or even .50 BMG someone can use it. Why add to the confusion? You can get an AR10, or M1A1 that shoots the 7.62 and can be supplied with no changes to the chain. Even putting a high magnification scope on an M4 could work if the trigger man is disciplined enough. I don't believe the time to experiment with changing things is while being shot at! It's sounds good to the Buttholes that are hiding behind a desk, but it doesn't work well in the field! Nate

The change has already occurred.

The SR-25 vairants, one known as the MK-11 Mod 0, for example have already been deployed successfully through most branches. But, this has been restricted mostly to SOF groups and not the combat infantry birgades at large.

However, recently the commanders have been deploying units with previously "mothballed" M-14s - as many as one per squad. This is a strategy to get more medium sized rounds onto a threat faster and to allow for the squad to widen it's perimeter without sacraficing too much ammo. The 240 / 249 gunners have only so much ammo to carry, once exhausted the unit is very vulnerable. The "designated marksman" system, or DMP as the Army calls it gives a squad increased lethality via more precise, harder hitting fire, thus saving the 240, 249 gunner's rounds for more immediate threats.

Interesting thing: As far as Snipers go, 'Nam was a stalk and shoot - counter sniper / personnel affair in the jungle (mostly). OEF & OIF are mostly overwatch / force protection details, MOUT. The mission has changed so should the weapon.

Vehicles running checkpoints, small bands of insurgents setting up IEDs, shooting RPGs, etc. More shots on target are now necessary.

ALSO: It is much easier to hand a trooper a semi-auto and tran him than to shoot well with it than it is to get them up to speed on a bolt gun.

At the end of the day it has come down to this: More highly trained "precision" shooters are needed than are available. Give a 20 round capable repeater to any soldier that is "expert" and you have instant force protection with lots of bullets on target, FAST!

That's the plan and that's what is happening.

As far as the .338 goes, it has it's place and we are already fielding some. But with the .50 BMG; McMillan bolt and M-107 the planners have yet to accept the fact that the .338 has creedance. Again, we are not doing as much counter sniper work as we had been previously. Also, a big heavy bolt gun does not make sense for 11-Bs, etc. Odd caliber, no battlefield pick-up opportunity, etc...

...Awesome performer, but not real practical given the aforementioned.

JW

I think the M14 is the rifle. It is accurate out to 500 yds for me with a little hold over or dial in it can go 800 yds. For more than that
bring in the artilary.

The commanders do as well....given the fact that we already have several hundred thousand in inventory!

JW