Bought a Stevens 200 in 7mm Mag.

Had intention to turn it into a 338-06 so I bought the cheap Lee RGB dies for $17.00 just to shoot the 7mm for fun before I ordered the new barrel.

After sizing the new Remington brass, and loading a round, found the bullet was loose in the neck and needed a crimp.

Went back to store and bought the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

After reading instructions noticed how Lee writes about uniform start pressure being the most important for accuracy. Well, have to say that I am now a believer of this. Can't believe how accurate and how forgiving my load development is now. Using IMR 4350 which is not optimal, am getting .377" the result of 2 bullets nearly in the same hole and the 3rd just out.

Can't make the rifle shoot worse than MOA no matter how hard I try. 52 gr. is basically the accuracy of 61 gr. 57-58 gr. are all 3/4" MOA.

Even played with wild seating depths and things hold the same. The very nature of the TSX bullet requires the bullet be crimped in the last "rib" which limits seating depth to .082" minimum off the lands in my gun. No problem, 1/2 MOA with many powder charges.

This really got me thinking and makes perfect sense. Without crimping the bullet, once the powder starts to burn, the pressure will both:

A) Begin pushing out the bullet

B) Expand the case against chamber.

With many variables in the neck surface, like lubrication residue, thickness, etc. it is no wonder one must seat the bullet at the lands to develop a consistent start pressure.

With the Lee Factory Crimp, the case expands against the walls quicker and the neck hold on bullet is firm and consistent.

I recommend anyone wanting to fuss less with powder selection and seating depths buy a $12.00 Lee Factory Crimp die and enjoy your 1/2 MOA groups.

Perhaps my $300.00 Stevens 200 plays a part here as well. May have got an exceptional gun.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
After sizing the new Remington brass, and loading a round, found the bullet was loose in the neck

"Found the bullet was loose in the neck".

Well, I would concede that in that case crimping could very well help. But crimping is no substitute for proper case preparation. The necks should provide a consistent tension on the bullets. If your dies don't do this, then you need different dies.

last time I looked you could not get lee dies in 270wsm without special ordering

quote:

Bought a Stevens 200 in 7mm Mag.

Had intention to turn it into a 338-06 so I bought the cheap Lee RGB dies for $17.00 just to shoot the 7mm for fun before I ordered the new barrel.

After sizing the new Remington brass, and loading a round, found the bullet was loose in the neck and needed a crimp.

Went back to store and bought the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

The expander/decapper rod on your dies is too large, spin it in a drill or drill press and emery off a little at a time until the inside neck dia. of sized brass is .281-.282. You still can use the FC die if you feel it helps, but you need to fix your sizer die, or make Lee fix it. Also the FC die will crimp anywhere you want it to, in the groove, ontop of one of the ridges, bullets with cannalures and bullets without cannalures. I use FC dies for a dozen or so calibers, couldn't prove any accuracy diffence on most hunting rifles by me< get your dies fixed and gun should be just as accurate without the crimp.
One other thing, if you ever deside to re-barrel to 338/06 you'll have to change bolt head.

Interesting! I know a guy who doesn't know how to size his case necks - he just crimps the bullets in place. They actually wobble! Thing is, he is still getting extremely good accuracy even though he mixes his loads (different bullet weights). Maybe it would be best not to fix it! In fact, why not try loading with crimping in un-sized cases to see what happens? I know another guy who claims he used to reload his target 270 without the need to neck size since the neck was tight enough to just push the bullet in by hand and he was getting 'tight' groups!?

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

The expander/decapper rod on your dies is too large, spin it in a drill or drill press and emery off a little at a time until the inside neck dia. of sized brass is .281-.282. You still can use the FC die if you feel it helps, but you need to fix your sizer die, or make Lee fix it.

+1

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

The expander/decapper rod on your dies is too large, spin it in a drill or drill press and emery off a little at a time until the inside neck dia. of sized brass is .281-.282. You still can use the FC die if you feel it helps, but you need to fix your sizer die, or make Lee fix it.

+1

- mike

+2 or get better quality dies

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

...or get better quality dies

+1

Mmmmmm ..... but ..... ar corey did say he is getting consistent tight groups with different powders, charges and seating depths. It ain't broke is it? Maybe those of us with accuracy problems should be opening up our sizer dies to leave the bullets loose and then crimping!?

quote:

Can't make the rifle shoot worse than MOA no matter how hard I try. 52 gr. is basically the accuracy of 61 gr. 57-58 gr. are all 3/4" MOA.

Even played with wild seating depths and things hold the same. The very nature of the TSX bullet requires the bullet be crimped in the last "rib" which limits seating depth to .082" minimum off the lands in my gun. No problem, 1/2 MOA with many powder charges.

Find out what the dimensions are in that "cheap Lee RGB dies for $17.00 " and patent it! It might just represent a break-through!

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

But crimping is no substitute for proper case preparation. The necks should provide a consistent tension on the bullets.

Let me clarify, the bullets didn't "fall out" loose but a firm push with my thumb could move them.

quote:

If your dies don't do this, then you need different dies.

That is what is so ironic here, getting near 1 hole accuracy with 61 gr. without paying $175.00 for these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...id=494729&t=11082005


The Lee RGB dies are the same dies as the Pace Setter dies but the Pace Setter dies come with loading information, shell holder and a powder dipper.

I bought the RGB dies seperately and the Factory Crimp.

Had I to do it over, I would buy the Lee Pace Setter 3 die set:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...id=377416&t=11082005

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

The expander/decapper rod on your dies is too large, spin it in a drill or drill press and emery off a little at a time until the inside neck dia. of sized brass is .281-.282.

The bullets don't fall out but can be moved with pressure from my thumb. Actually going to just leave it as is because the TSX 160 I shoot is a flat based bullet. I use the Lyman VLD neck reamer to peel away a tiny bit of brass to seat the bullet without peeling off any copper. I like to have the copper perfect when travelling down the barrel so am going to leave the neck ball as is and just keep using the Factory Crimp.

quote:

in the groove, ontop of one of the ridges, bullets with cannalures and bullets without cannalures.

Prefer to crimp tight against the bullet wall instead of the cannelure space on the TSX.

This allows a tight grip and allows the powder to build good start pressure to uniformly and consistently expand the brass against the chamber. Feel this is why my accuracy is so good; everthing is so consistent, much like a neck sizing die.

Always felt adding lube to case necks before sizing would allow inconsistent bullet velocity. How to get the same amount of lube on each case?

So far, the Factory Crimp eliminates this variable.

quote:

One other thing, if you ever deside to re-barrel to 338/06 you'll have to change bolt head.

Yes, $19.00 at Midway.

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die with my 7x57R. The three loads tried so far have all shot around the half inch mark. but since I haven't tried loads without the crimp it can't be said that these loads are better for having the crimp. I have no intention of finding out since the results are good with it.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
The bullets don't fall out but can be moved with pressure from my thumb. Actually going to just leave it as is ...

That's how I understood it. That's why I am suggesting that you have 'accidentally' come across a ‘winning formulae’. You have given me the idea of trying out that very same principal - bullet just fitting with thumb pressure followed by a crimp. I personally wonder whether the dynamics is such that with a 'loose' neck and a crimp, the neck does not expand against the chamber walls and thus guides the bullet into the bore straight. Do you find that the crimp is still sort of there after firing? I have a bunch of fired cases that had been Collet crimped and the crimp is definitely still there. Maybe it is the crimp itself that guides the bullet? Maybe the improvement in accuracy has nothing to do with bullet grip but throat alignment? Maybe, too, the 'loose' neck removes the 'inconsistencies' of neck tension as you have suggested. I have found that a tight neck contributes to bullet runout – the less expansion during bullet seating the straighter the bullet seams to seat. The same probably applies to neck straightness – the less sizing that takes place the straighter. Just my thoughts!

I use RCBS dies, the crimp is built in should you choose to use it or not. I don't crimp, and have pretty accurate reloads... Nothing more than 1 MOA... But that's just my 0.02

Something is wrong with Remington cases.The Lee factory crimp does not increase accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Something is wrong with Remington cases.The Lee factory crimp does not increase accuracy.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if you were to size to a 'push' fit then crimp. (Probably not good to size down then expand up again).

I've used the Lee factory crimp on a 45-70 and am thinking about getting one for my 375 h&h. With the 45-70 I couldn't see any difference in accuracy, but I knew my bullets wouldn't start moving back into the case from recoil. I'm probably going to get one for my 375 just so I can seat the bullets where I want them.

I see you are reloading for the big 7.This caliber gave me issues with neck tension and bushing dies,so much that I rechambered for the 300WM.What a big pain in the ass it was.I could not get a case to firmly hold a bullet.I guess Redding competition dies do not work well with the big 7.I had no problem with Wilson dies and the 270 WSM.

This is what a light Lee Factory crimp did to 6.5 mm SMK bullets.

Match bullets tend to be thinner skinned than hunting.

I have attended the National Matches at Camp Perry for more than a decade. I have never met one good shooter, National Champion, Service Rifle team, that used the LFC. Might be a Marksman who does, but I have not met him either.

If it made a difference on paper, the tiny tinest difference, everyone would be using the LFC.

Not one.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
This is what a light Lee Factory crimp did to 6.5 mm SMK bullets.

Match bullets tend to be thinner skinned than hunting.

I have attended the National Matches at Camp Perry for more than a decade. I have never met one good shooter, National Champion, Service Rifle team, that used the LFC. Might be a Marksman who does, but I have not met him either.

If it made a difference on paper, the tiny tinest difference, everyone would be using the LFC.

Not one.

Yep,exactly what a light fc does to cast bullets too. I think it would take some shooting of non fc ammo to determine if a miracle fix all has been discovered, or just another Savage hummer, which is what I suspect. Hell fix the dies, forget the crimp and it might shoot in the 2's.

quote:

This is what a light Lee Factory crimp did to 6.5 mm SMK bullets.

How did they shoot? (That is if you test fired some). Some folks find accuracy improvement in the hornet with Lil'Gun when they crimp. Those bullets must be getting deformed too. (I went the other way and used no crimp or neck sizing but had to increase the powder charge and a heavy bullet to get good accuracy).

The Lee dies vary in size. My 30-06 RGB dies resize the neck so tight that you can see where the base of the bullet is if I am using light bullets seated highter than the base of the neck.

My friends same caliber RGB dies size the neck so little that one can shove or twist the bullet by hand. His 742 auto does not feed well with different loads and I think that is why. We probably should swap dies. Merg

I have had only one set of Lee dies, and I bought them after hearing a friend talk so much about what a good deal they are. I was going to buy a take-off 416 Taylor barrel, and the RCBS or Redding dies are expensive. Midway had the lee dies with the F.C. on sale in 416 Taylor. I sized some brass and loaded some dummy rounds to try feeding, and discovered the bullets had to be crimped because they would push back into the brass just from feeding. There was very little neck tension. Anyway, I messed with it for a little while, then gave them and the other stuff pertaining to 416 T to a friend who had a rifle so chambered and no dies.

He said he was happy with the dies, but I don't know if he was just saying that because the price was right, and he didn't want to hurt my feelings. Either way, my suspicions were confirmed about Lee dies, and I'll just stay with RCBS or Redding or so forth in the future - anything but Lee.

Incidentally, my friend who likes Lee dies, dismissed my info - one way or another - I can't remember what he said now, but he still swears by the Lees, and that damn factory crimp. It's an odd thing in my book about human nature.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Something is wrong with Remington cases.The Lee factory crimp does not increase accuracy.

I beg to differ.

.270 Win with 130gr Nosler Partitions was giving five shot groups just over 1" without the crimp & 3/4" when crimped with the FCD.
ES was significantly reduced & AV up slightly too.

I'm not saying the same result will happen with other rifles but on this particular one(BSA Monarch), the improvement was worth the effort.
I've just received a .243 FCD & we'll see if similar results come from trying it - this time with another BSA & a Savage.

The Lee Factory Crimp die has helped tighten up groups for me in a 7mm Rem Mag before....that may be bullet and powder specific. I believe that if you are crimping at the beginning or end of the bullet's bearing surface you may reduce accuracy, but that's just my guess.

The AR test data also showed improvement if you care to look at that link.

The FC die is pretty cheap. I consider it better than a roll crimp any day of the week, and not case legth sensitive.

Your rifle needs to be your guide, IMO. If the FC die improves your rifle's game, I'd be happy and ignore the whining of the experts out there who disagree.

Cheers,

Dan

quote:

groups just over 1" without the crimp & 3/4" when crimped with the FCD.

I just never wanted to crimp. Now I have no choice! (Damn!)
But I am going to go with the minimum neck sizing that ar corey 'accidently' started out with! (I looked for a crimp die this week-end but did not see one).

I ran a test on my 22.250 and my 375 H&H and in both cases the the Lee FCD improved group sizes. This was done with all identical components and reloading procedures, I just ran the finished cartridges through the FCD after I finished my standard reloads.

The change in the accuracy (over ten 5 shot groups) of the 22.250 was approximately 0.15" from .66" down to .51" and there was only two FCD groups larger than the the smallest non crimped group.

The big difference was in my 375 H&H where the average group size went from .88" to .47" for an improvement of of .41" for an average of ten 3 shot groups. None of the FCD groups were larger than the smallest non-crimped groups.

IIRC Sayeed also tested the Lee FCD and found a slight improvement in accuracy over his groups also.

Bullets with light neck tension seated against the lands can shoot really really well. Sounds like the gun being used is really a good shooter. These kinds of stories reinforce to me that if a gun likes a certain load and powder it can shoot it really well no matter how little effort goes into the reloading process. And if a gun doesn't like a load all the match prepping of brass with "0.0" runnout, pfl or neck sizing, uniforming primer pockets etc etc etc won't help.
I have several lee crimpers and use them for calibers like 45-70 and 357. On normal bottleneck hunting ammo I pretty much only use them if neck tension might be so light as to keep pushing the bullet deeper while in the magazine. Lee crimpers can help some guns slightly....maybe not help others....but regardless they have NO MAGIC qualities related accuracy in general.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
This is what a light Lee Factory crimp did to 6.5 mm SMK bullets.

Match bullets tend to be thinner skinned than hunting.

I have attended the National Matches at Camp Perry for more than a decade. I have never met one good shooter, National Champion, Service Rifle team, that used the LFC. Might be a Marksman who does, but I have not met him either.

If it made a difference on paper, the tiny tinest difference, everyone would be using the LFC.

Not one.

I agree, One should never crimp a bullet that does not have a cannelure in the bullet for doing it.

I have done 3 tests on loads where the only difference is that one was crimped and the other was not. In all 3 the Lee Factory Crimp increased velocity by and average of 10 fps and decreased group size by an average of 1/8". Here is one example






Typically I size the neck with the Lee Collet which only has .001" to .002" bullet grip so the Lee Factory Crimp Die takes away the worry about loaded bullet movement.

Also, I have pulled bullets that I have crimped and have never seen indentations such as those illustrated above. You can easily choose the magnitude of crimp you apply and that must have been one hell of a crimp. Even so those indentations would pale in comparison to the magnitude of surface grooving from the lands in the barrel upon firing.

Each rifle is unique when it comes to what will and will not work. Try it and see if it works for you. Better than having preconceived convictions or taking what anyone here says (except me of course ) and not trying something that may work very well for you.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
This is what a light Lee Factory crimp did to 6.5 mm SMK bullets.

Match bullets tend to be thinner skinned than hunting.

I have attended the National Matches at Camp Perry for more than a decade. I have never met one good shooter, National Champion, Service Rifle team, that used the LFC. Might be a Marksman who does, but I have not met him either.

If it made a difference on paper, the tiny tinest difference, everyone would be using the LFC.

Not one.

That's because you are crimping it too much. The amount of crimp is adjustable.

quote:

That's because you are crimping it too much. The amount of crimp is adjustable

Obviously. I also gave a light crimp to 168 SMK's, and later pulled the bullets. They were damaged in the same way.

The indentations on the case neck were so slight, it would have been hard to know that that the bullets had been crimped. And yet the bullet damage was significant.

I don't trust the LFC, and I don't see the need.

As for the velocity differences, such as 10 fps. I would have to search my velocity data, but I know I have had velocity changes by that much, on the same day, same rifle, same ammo, just on a different string. I can recall something about averages being 97% of the time within one standard deviation of the mean. Or something like that. Small sample sizes can lead to some erronous conclusions.

I doubt this debate about crimping in general and the Lee Factory Crimp in particular will be settled here. I have read several threads on the subject that have progressed just about like this one with some in favor of the FCD and other opposed. I use it for some loads and not for others (having performed my own test and thought I saw a difference one way or another). I'd say to the guys using it, "Good luck and good shooting." I'd say to the guys not using it, "Good luck and good shooting." It is obvious that its not as clear cut an issue as Richard Lee makes it. I suspect, that in many cases it does indeed improve accuracy for some people's loads. Now that may be due to some other failing in the reloading process for which the FCD compensates, but still there is an improvement. For others there may be no improvement or groups might actually get bigger. It is an interesting debate but as I see it, it is similar to the debate over whether to clean primer pockets or not. Some are in favor of doing it and others ain't.

Like I said I own a few of these FC dies, and have for many years, and fired thousands of rounds crimped with them. I have never found them to be an accuracy FIX-ALL, if any improvement it is so small to be indistinguisable in hunting rifles, and have found it to open groups in one 308 I own with 168MK. I still use them on some hunting ammo if needed to keep the bullet inplace in the magazine, usually cast in large caliber and I use the lightest crimp possible to hold the bullet. Now you need to try their factory crimp pistol die, even better claims! Check out Mountain Molds web site, Dan tested them for pistol ammo and has a write-up on them, not too impressed. Now before some idiot starts telling me we are talking about rifle FC dies, or you can adjust the amount of crimp, or on and on- believe me I KNOW, and have known since there inception. If it is black magic for you, go for it! what ever makes you think you're shooting better, but correctly annealed and sized brass will outshoot it. If I'm wrong you will see the Lee FC die used in BR comp from this day on. I read Lees write up too, I didn't swallow hook, line and sinker, because I've read others of theirs.

quote:

Originally posted by ghostrider272:
I use RCBS dies, the crimp is built in should you choose to use it or not. I don't crimp, and have pretty accurate reloads... Nothing more than 1 MOA... But that's just my 0.02

The RCBS crimp spoken of here is a roll or sometimes called "taper" crimp. This is not what the Lee Factory Crimp does.

The Lee Factory Crimp holds the bullet much more securely. Much better crimp.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Something is wrong with Remington cases.The Lee factory crimp does not increase accuracy.

Consistent velocity between rounds; consistent groups.

The Lee Factory Crimp securely holds the bullet and allows the primer to ignite the powder charge and get the powder burning with good pressure.

Then the case abruptly expands against the chamber and forces the bullet out.

Without a secure grip on the bullet, the bullet will proceed forward while the powder is still building pressure and this becomes a great variable, depending how much lube was used in case neck etc.

My groups with Stevens 200 rifle and this crimp are 2 forming a slightly goose egg hole with the 3rd bullet averaging .375" out from those holes. Exceptional accuracy.

Maybe some people might have to sell their rifle, buy a Stevens 200 with this Crimp die and join the club. Its called "1/3rd MOA for $375.00" (cheap Weaver K6 steel scope)

Gotta go shoot a moose.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
This is what a light Lee Factory crimp did to 6.5 mm SMK bullets.

Match bullets tend to be thinner skinned than hunting.

I have attended the National Matches at Camp Perry for more than a decade. I have never met one good shooter, National Champion, Service Rifle team, that used the LFC. Might be a Marksman who does, but I have not met him either.

If it made a difference on paper, the tiny tinest difference, everyone would be using the LFC.

Not one.

Yep,exactly what a light fc does to cast bullets too. I think it would take some shooting of non fc ammo to determine if a miracle fix all has been discovered, or just another Savage hummer, which is what I suspect. Hell fix the dies, forget the crimp and it might shoot in the 2's.

Another possibility is the absolute minimal damage the Factory Crimp does to the TSX.

Looking at the bullets here, seems the Factory Crimp put a dent in the bullets no doubt, but also created a valley curving up from the dent.

The TSX is not like this. It has individual ribs where each notch has been machined out.

It is on the last rib that I put maximum crimp so the deformation to the bullet is minimal, completely covering the tiny rib only.

It works out to 0.082" off the lands in my rifle. The next rib down is basically at the lands so I decided to crimp back further in case the crimp along with seating at the lands created excessive pressure. The bullet would have to overcome the crimp force then overcome the resistance being right at the lands. Best to set it back 1 rib and allow the crimp to build consistent pressure and speed, then slam through the lands with some inertia.

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die with my 7x57R. The three loads tried so far have all shot around the half inch mark. but since I haven't tried loads without the crimp it can't be said that these loads are better for having the crimp. I have no intention of finding out since the results are good with it.

Yup.

At $40.00 a box, those bullets add up. Would be nice to develop real scientific data with and without crimp etc. for others but can't afford to.

Am happy and confident with my ammo now also. Can bang around the shells in the field with no thoughts about bullet change or magazine-recoil change.

1/3rd MOA hunting rig. No complaints here now.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I see you are reloading for the big 7.

Very content with the 7mm Rem. Mag.

Was on sight with a deer this morning but she moved just as I was about to start squeezing.

Should have a moose by the end of this week. Nice to have a gun that does both well.

I find the 7mm Rem. Mag. easier to shoot than a hot loaded 270 or 30-06. The recoil is a nice "boom" and a push.
The 270 and 30-06 both have a percussive metallic snap for recoil and blast. Actually hate that.

Wish I would have sold my 270 earlier. Nothing wrong with a 270, but would only get a 24" barrel and pray it would shoot the TSX as good as this 7mm does.