A friend of mine, for whom I have a lot of respect is a geologist in Alaska. Every year they have to go through firearm/bear training. The rifles they were issued with were 375 Winchesters. During the training, the biggest problem, by a large margin, was the three position safety. The shooter would not disengage the safety completely and get "eaten by the bear". My friend has been through this training on numerous occasions and says this is always the biggest failure. He will not have any rifle with a three position safety. He has Remingtons.

What are other thoughts on the subject?

I like and use both, but I find the 2-position to be a bit more natural, plus is in a more natural place for my thumb. I also like the two-position tang safeties like on the old rugers. Probably any hang-ups would disappear with enough practice...

The 3-position is safer, but may not be faster, and by the shear fact that it has more positions in a slightly harder to reach spot, I suppose it could be argued that it would be more error prone. Just my thoughts...

The 3-position safety lovers will be on this before too long - prepare yourself.

Personally, I prefer the mod. 70 Winchester safety (3 position) which blocks the firing pin to any safety which blocks only the trigger or sear. As I do a lot of shooting and am completely familiar with my rifles, I have never had a problem getting one off safety.

I have, however, had a "fire on release of safety" (foros) with a brand new 40XC (Custom Shop target version of the 700). It was the very first round through that new rifle, in fact.

Remington recently issued a recall on later versions of the 700 related to this safety problem. The later version has a tab on the safety that locks the bolt when on safe, making it impossible to unload the rifle without taking the safety off, which results in a "foros" if that particular safety is so inclined. I understand that Remington is removing the tab that locks the bolt so that the shooter may unload the rifle before slipping off safety. Have never heard of "foros" occuring with the 3 position safety, although I suppose it could if the sear did not catch the firing pin for whatever reason.

While I do not place complete faith in the safety on a rifle, I do prefer the added safety of the blocked firing pin. JMHO

Regards,
hm

I guess I have used both enough to not be bothered by any safety. Think about the old savage 99s with the safety out of the way on the lever. With enough paractice one can effectively use them all. What I run into is people thinking they can pick up any old rifle and be good with it.

Use what you want but I don't find one to be better the the other.

I prefer the tang safety on the Ruger 77 mark 1. After the tang, give me a 2-stage like the remington. I find the 3 stage safety to be very awkward and requires too much time to use.

The 3 position safety has always seemed a natural for me, I guess it's got a lot to do with what you learn with instead of adapt to.

Terry

I like/prefer the 2 position on my CZ 550...

Then again, it's only an action right now...

I wonder if it's positive enough though, hope it's not like the ones on rem 700's.

i Have heard comment that some African hunters actually prefer a 2 pos safety, I really like the 2 pos safety on my cz 550's, it is slick and it's either on or off and it is in a great spot I think it is a better safety than a rem 700 some one might be able to chime in on that one. I do however like the looks of 3 pos safety's. My cz 9.3x62 actually has a 3 pos safety in the sam position as my other cz's...I never ordered a 3 pos it arrived like that

Point is, a 3-position can be made into a 2-position but the reverse is not true. When on game my 3-position is in the "middle" ready to be flicked forward for the shot...

I think the 2 position that some African hunters like is F.N. Mauser safety. With the safety being on the Left side of the rifle and operated by the thumb, you don't have to loosen your grip on the rifle to disengage the safety and fire. It looks a little funny (safety on the wrong side) till you've had the opportunity to use one, then you realize how perfect the system is.

Terry

I think if you cannot manipulate a three posistion safety , it's likely you cannot walk and chew gum at the same time .

It only requires one motion to completely dis-engage a 3 posistion safety , just like a 2 posisition .

I switch back and forthe between the two types and really have no problem with either one.

Some have complained the M-70 is TOO easy to move and claim they have had them come off safe by accident.

Then there are those who claim the Ruger safety lever is too small and hard to manipulate. I have no problem with those , either .

Either will work fine.
I was reared on Ruger M77, Mossberg 550, and several Sakos, so I have a definite preference for two position safeties.
Either on a rifle in good working condition is "safe."
About ten years ago I bought a Ruger M77 mkII (223) and a Ruger 77-22(22 Mag). The three position safeties were very awkward at first, but with practice I learned to easily and safely manipulate them. I still prefer any two position safety for big game rifles, but find no big disadvantage to the three position safety. Knowing and understanding how your firearm's safety works and practicing enough to be confident and familiar with it are most important.

The three position safety on post war M70's offers more options than a two position safety. However not every M70's safety is all that smooth. They can be slicked however.



The Mausers that have the safety on the left of the bolt shroud are the worst. There is no hope of letting one down without making a click unless you take your hand off of the grip and move it to the other side of the rifle.



I can get used to almost anything. I prefer the safeties on the latest Kimbers and post war M70's to others.

CZ 550�s with the exception of the Safari?? Model are 3 position. Fully locked they are locking the bolt. Release is easy and less noise than on Win 70.

I carry my Win 70 with the safety half on, meaning no bolt lock. Lost a cartridge once. The bolt slid open during carrying European style, its so smooth ...

I think the Win 70 safety locks the firing pin, but I am not sure, if in middle position, too??

Good shooting, H

I wonder how many who failed this test would have failed with a 2 position safety too? All would be my guess, probably stop to look at the safety as they disengage it instead of just pushing the darn thing forward. There can be no meaureable time difference in getting a shot off with either a 2 or 3 position safety that are on the same side of the gun. They were probably just not "gun guys".

Some people cannot process more than one way to do things.

I currently own rifles made by Anschutz, Bushmaster, Cooper, Kimber, Remington, Ruger, Sako, Savage, Thompson Center, Weatherby, Winchester, and have never had trouble switching from one to the other.
I own, or have owned, falling-blocks, semi-autos, bolt-actions, tip-ups, and even a lever-action.

If you are a casual shooter, I can see where it might be overwhelming to have to remember that you are using a three-position safety today as opposed to the two-position safety three months ago, but for anyone who is truly interested in shooting, I cannot imagine this to be so.

George

RobinB,

Quote:

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The shooter would not disengage the safety completely and get "eaten by the bear". My friend has been through this training on numerous occasions and says this is always the biggest failure. He will not have any rifle with a three position safety. He has Remingtons.

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If your friend short strokes that Remington and he will get eaten anyway. Just ask the guide up in Alaska that got mauled by a bear a while back using a push feed rifle(Remington is a push feed rifle although the guide was using a Sako). He would be better off going back to a CRF rifle. Lawdog

I think it is as good as any for a person who uses his rifle enough to use it correctly by instinct (same as a double-set trigger!!) But my favorite is the safety on the tang, like the M77 Rugers were before they were "improved" (NOT!!), and the No. 1's!

Obviously training once a year is not enough. Just like anything else it takes practice to become proficient. I have never experienced a problem with a 3 pos safety and I attribute that to spending plenty of time with my rifles.

Doug

I have 6 rifles with 3 posison safties and a few with the timny stile side safty . I carry my model 70 and 77Mk2s with the safty in the middle possition. Also I like as a hand loader to use the middle position so I can cycle my loads through the action with the safty on !
...tj3006

I wonder how many trainees would get eaten using the kind of saftey I was brought up to use, its something of a 2 position saftey. On safe, the chamber is empty, loaded, its ready to fire. It dont work so good with a single shot, but otherwise its the best one Ive ever seen.

It's even safer if you remove the striker assembly from the bolt , which takes less than a minute on a M-70 or maybe two minutes with a Ruger...........

Well, I like the 3-position safety...it feels mechanically solid and I like being able to unload the rifle with it on "safe".



HOWEVER, I have had two disagreeable incidents with pre-64 Model 70 3-position safeties. The first one was in 1963. My young wife and I had scraped together out last few bucks and bought two deer tags. We loaded up our VW bug, left our one-year old son with a neighbor lady, and went hunting for badly needed meat-type food in eastern Oregon. After a day or so of skulking through the brush in the Ritter/Dale area, I managed to stalk up within about 20 yards of a nice big mule deer. Raised the rifle, pushed the safety off, and tried to pull the trigger. No fire. Pushed the safety lever very firmly home, aimed, and tried to pull the trigger again. No fire.



At this point the deer remembered somewhere it had to be, and left. I looked down to find out why the rifle had not fired and there it was...a tiny twig of buckbrush had found its way between the safety lever and the bolthead. The safety lever could not go all the way forward to where the sear could release the firing pin. It was a long drive home, and a hungry several weeks after that hunt.



The next incident was in 1987. I was on a Coues deer hunt in Arizona, just above the Mexican border. Was carrying another pre-64 Model 70, this one a .270 FW. Walked out of camp one day at noon while everyone else slept...to do a little mid-day scouting-observing. Saw a Coues deer sneaking along the inside edge of some brush slightly uphill from me across a very small arroyo. Raised the rifle and pushed the safety off....BOOM. Rifle discharged as the safety disengaged. It and I went back to camp, then to town, where it was deposited with a gunsmith. No deer that hunt either but at least I hadn't killed anyone and as I then had a very good income, dind't go hungry as a result either.



Still and all, now I don't like ANY mechanical safety when I am hunting. I either carry the gun with an empty chamber or, more commonly, with a round in the chamber and the bolt handle UP. And I use compact binoculars or a compact spotting scope for finding/identifying game, not my rifle scope.



These tales don't prove/disprove anything. Just thought they might be of interest.



AC

Myself I think it has more to do with where the saftey is mounted on the gun than anything else.

I don't like either of the M-70 or Ruger 77 MarkII safeties but I do like the Rem 725 3 positions safety.The frist two are a little to hard to get to while the side mounted 725 is as easy as the Tang safety of the A-bolt and older Rugers,while the Savage is as bad the first 2 above.

Here's my take on safeties. I used all three type mentioned - Win M70 (3-position), Rem M700 (2-position), Ruger tang (2-position) and T/C Contender (2-position.)

Without a doubt, the 3-position is the SAFEST there is. The tang safety is best for quick snap-shooting.

Going back to where this thread started. Field personnel were being tested with a firearm intended for protection from bears, not for hunting them. That said, there are two issues: (1) is the rifle safe for carrying on shoulder while loaded and (2) how quickly can the safety be disengaged for a quick shot at a charging bear.

Sure, the 3-position is not the quickest for item (2), but were talking rifles issued by an employer for use by their employees. I can tell you from personal experience that you DO NOT WANT TO BE CARRYING A LOADED 2-POSITION SAFETY GUN IN THE FIELD. Here's what happens in Alaska. You carry a loaded, shouldered gun. If you are working in the field (geologist, game biologist, etc.) you are climing around in rugged, brushy terrain. A two-position safey is VERY easy to activate by snagging on brush. I done it many, many times. My POS Remington safety is the type that does not lock the bolt in safe positions. The safety snags, the bolt opens, you drop rounds on the ground.

I don't think you want to hand your field employees anything but a 3-position. FWIW, I think the Ruger MKII is harder to getinto firing position than the Win M70. Just MHO, of course.

I have both, but my favorite is the 3-position safety, since I can load the chamber with the safety in the middle position and not worry about firing the rifle. In a way, the middle position is just like the "safe" position in a Remington rifle, except that one can load/unload the changer while on "safe."

I have never had any problems with mine in Alaska. If I am in a place where I expect bears to appear nearby, I set the safety on the middle position. I do the same when testing handloads at the range, as well as when I aim my rifle before I fire on an animal.

In like and use both. However, for inexperienced "rifleman" trainees I would conjecture that the concept of "off" and "on" is going to sink in faster than "off", "kind of off but still on", and "on"; this, coupled with the fact that I doubt thse folks are going to spend copious amounts of time practicing with their "emergency training" 375s, makes the 3-pos seems a bit less appropriate for these folks. I would think that protection from big bears would be best served by simplicity and speed of function, and the two position strikes me as the better choice along these two lines, especially in the hands of a semi-experienced and/or minimally practiced rifleman.

As for carrying a model 70 on the middle - I find this to be awkward because it does free the bolt (noticeably more than than a 700 bolt on safe), plus it is sticking out in mid air, just waiting to get "brushed" or "big mittened" one way, usually to fire. Tang safties are (110 and 77) are lower profile and less susectible to this problem; and 721/722/700 and Sako safeties I've used are rather stiff unless unduly worn, and I've never had one get "brushed" on.

Additionally, I've always sort been bothered by a sense of fragility that the Win 3-position safety at least "appears" to have - a lot of the hardware (and the corresponding openings in the bolt shroud etc) are all exposed to weather, brush, dirt, and impacts - Tangs and Sako-Rem type are more internal.

Just my thoughts...

Interesting post!

I have 3 daughters who hunt with a variety of rifles-Win70/Rem721/Arisaka/Rem700. They seem to do okay, I teach them the safety is merely insurance. I also make sure they familiarize themselves before we go out. I will say that they all express comfort in the 3 position Winchester safety when it comes to unloading the rifle. The new Remington's have the ability to be unloaded on SAFE also.

I personally agree with others who have stated that if the 3 position safety caused them to be mauled, then they weren't prepared anyway.

There is a final point- one can check the Mauser 3 position safety to determine whether or not you are on SAFE or FIRE by trying to lift the bolt. On the Winchester its easy to verify by sight.

I am surprised the Administators haven't moved this thread...







I hate small cars and big women, so why do I always find myself in 'em?

When we were doing repair work for the US Forest Service, the biggest problems were.

The person thought they knew how to take care of the gun and would take it apart and over grease it. Also lose parts to the rifle.

They did not know a thing about guns and would not keep them cleaned and oiled.

Then the USFS started having the stocks painted the brightest orange you could find, this was so the person could find the rifle after laying it down on the ground.

We never heard any complaints about safeties, most of the rifles used were M70's both pre 64 and post 64.

Jim Wisner
Wisner's Inc

I never saw the need for a 3-position saftey until I loaded some 375 ammo for a friend to take on a cape buffalo hunt.
That ammo has to be cycled through the gun to make sure there are no surprises. I feel that can only be done with absolute safety with the gun set in the middle of a 3-position safety. For what its worth, Shayne

As has already been pointed out, removing the firing pin, cocking piece, etc. is another step which can be taken to make a rifle absolutely safe when checking reloads to be sure they chamber properly. The three position safety on the mod. 70 makes bolt disassembly a lot easier than the 700 bolt. No tools needed to disassemble a Win. bolt.

Regards,
hm

I have a Ruger 77MkII (3 pos), and have never used it with the safety on 'full safe'. I understand the circumstances that are referred to (inexperienced people needing to protect themselves), but for hunting purposes, I only evr have a round in the chamber when I'm 'on game'. At that point, I use the middle position, more for psychological reasons than actual safety purposes. Someone mentioned using the safety for 'executive or administrative' purposes while the gun is stored or in a vehicle!!

Do that with me, or any of my hunting mates, and you'd better have a pretty good reason!

I only started using a safety when I started teaching my son to shoot - as a reminder to him that he was carrying a lethal weapon.

All my bolt action guns have 3 pos. safties, they have never failed me in 60 years of using them on Mausers and M-70 pre 64s....

My latest addition, a 404 Jefferys has the CZ Safty on it and it sure is handy and quick on a DGR...I am testing it but I think I am really going to like it...if not then I will replace it with a 3 pos...

I abhore tang safty like on Ruger No.1s and old 77s..they will click off in a behind the seat window gun rack...No I don't normally keep a round in the chamber, but have on ocassion under certain circumstances..but even at that I like a locked bolt....other than that they are fine and I like them on my double shotguns of course.