While we are appropriately lamenting the proliferation of short/fat and big/fat cartridges in recent years, and comparing them with considerable disfavor to those fine 'ol rounds of yesteryear, how aboout taking a stab at one or two of these alien invaders?

Which one(s) are most likely to survive?

I will put my money on the 300 WSM, just because it is 30 cal and does shoot everything from 110 to 220 grs well. If you have a 300 Winnie, you sure don't need one, but if you are in the market for a new rifle it is way hard to compete with a handy short action in 30 cal that will take anything in CONUS.

The Rem shorties are dead meat and the Ultras are too big and specialized...lots of recoil and barrel burn there if you know what I mean. The WSSMs are actually TOO short...TOO radical.

The 270 WSM is a cool idea, as there are only the 270 Win and Weatherby to compete with, but the 270 Win is just too close in performance...what difference does it make if you shoot a 130 gr bullets just as fast as a 150 grainer in .277, anyway. Its all about trajectory, not power, at that level.

The 7MM WSM might develop and hold a following, but given the choice most American hunters will still jump up to 30 Cal and the 300 WSM.

Sabot,

Obvioulsy it does to depend on ones definition of survival.

But I think all of Rem Ultras will be OK. Where these are different to say the 8mm Remington they are all well established bore sizes. If the 8mm Rem would have offered lots of extra paper ballistics compared to surrounding calibres, as did the 7mm Rem, then it would have made it.

270 WSM and 300 WSM. The 7mm WSM is like another version of the 280 Remington inluding the odd case size.

223 WSM. Unlike the 243 WSM the 223 offers lots more case capacity than the standard 225 bore size offerings. I would imagine the 257 WSM would be dead on arrival.

So my choices for survival are 223 WSM, 270 WSM, 300 WSM, 7mm, 300, 338 and 375 Rem Ultras.

Mike

Frankly I'm pretty uninterested in all of them, but I do sort of like the .300 and 7mm Remington Ultramags. Doubt I'll ever buy one, though. Can't go for the short mags, the whole idea of magnums is extravagant excess anyway.

The WSM's have really created quite a bit of interest and sales as far as I can tell. The marketing was quite clever and it has stuck. Some of the claims were superior velocity to the standard magnums and less recoil. While these claims are not really true the general public seems to be still running with them.

Another claim is greater accuracy due to positive head space control. From field results this seems to be true. I have not read of the benefits for reloaders of greater case life but this does matter to me.

I look forward to some real data on new gun sales. It's also about time for RCBS to publish the reloading die sales figures.

I have not paid much attention to the RUM's. They may hang in there. Most here feel the 7mm RUM is way overbore. The SAUM's are not going to make it.

As to the WSSM's the claim is superior accuracy. Since the rifles have not jumped out of the factories there may be some problems. It does not look all that good for them so far. There is a niche however for a .224" quick twist bore capacity cartridge.

I like new cartridges. I always did. I have a 7mm WSM and it's outstanding. I may get a 270 WSM next. I have little use for 300 mags and I have two of them! So I don't think I will get a 300 WSM.

It's too bad that Remington or someone did not come out with a line like the Dakotas or the Newtons.

As far as other old cartridges goes Remington has a good idea with the "Classic" series. Winchester would sell out a batch of .358 Win's I bet.

The .404 Jeffery. It is still holding on.

Aleko

Gentlemen

I hope that the Dakota line should be more popular and live a long life. The European rounds like 8X68S, 9,3X64 and 404 Jeffery are no rookies and will most likely last longer than any of the fatboys

/ JOHAN

.50BMG will always be around!

I think you are right on the money.

The 300 WSM being the "fustest with the mostest" will make it. The 270 WSM ought to as well. The 7mm WSM, 7mm SAUM, and 300 SAUM will falter. All that said none of them solve a problem I have. I'd like to see a 257 WSM (a non-proprietary short action 257 Wby anyone?) and a 338 SAUM (as a 350 Rem Mag replacement, starting a premium 250 @ an honest 2500 from a 18-1/2 inch barrel) added to the mix. $0.02

The 300 RUM will amke it. Also the 270 and 300 WSM...

Remington will lose, and has already lost the short magnum race and it has nothing to do with performance of the Remington round V the Winchester flavor. The sporting goods store that takes my money has a good selection of Remingtons and Winchesters, but I can count on one hand the number of short Remingtons I have seen in the sales rack. Remington was too slow getting them out where guys like us can drool over them. Winchester wins, not because of a better product, but because Remington can't seem to get thier product out.

All of them except the SAUM's. Your looking at the future of guns like it or not. Sure, the 06's and 270wins, and 300winnies will be around for a long time to come. But the newer catridges (last 4 years) will overtake sales of traditional calibers in the the next 10 years. Why? I was at Bass Pro the other day, and 50% of the guns they had was these newer offerings. Told me I would have to special order a 308Win in a gun I wanted. Newer, younger hunters will not only want a faster round, but will be pushed to believe they need it. When I was a kid, I wanted a 300Win Mag for deer. Why? It was fast, it was cool. Why did I never go that route for deer? Cause I was taught that I didn't need that type of round for a deer when I was only 12. So at the mercy of my grandfather, I had to shoot a 243win. He was doing what was right, not what I thought was right. But all the new breed of hunters I see are buying these whompers for deer. Guess what thier kids will be taught? Most of us here I believe have a tad bit more understanding of what is needed for different game. We take it to another level than the 80% of hunters who shoot once a year to sight in there guns.

And those "once a year" shooters are precisely the ones who have absolutely NO business shooting a magnum of any type. They'd be a lot better off if they took all of their magnum rifles and traded them in on guns chambered for cartridges of .270 Winchester power or less. Most inexperienced shooters flinch considerably when shooting heavy recoiling guns, and additionally, can't shoot well enough to hit a deer at over 300 yards, which is the only place the extra velocity of a magnum is an advantage for deer.

Hey, I hear ya and agree. I am not so happy about it either. And I have one of these new offerings and am happy with it. I just feel more comfortable with my 308 and 270win.

I have to laugh every year when I see guys in October asking for help on why there gun isn't hitting the target. They blame the scope, blame the ammo. Ask why not come shoot every month or so. Always get the I have kids, or don't have time. Whatever.

don't hold much regard for any of them but I do agree that the 300 wsm is here to stay for awhile. I will never own one though. I view them as a sloution to a problem that never existed in the first place.
Just my 2 cents
Matt

The Winchester line will make it. Remington's SAUM are as good as dead as are their Ultra Magnum line. Their sales are dropping enough for Remington to drop cartridges like the .338 Win. Mag. from it's line(which was outselling the Ultra by a good margin) trying to boost the sales of the .338 Ultra. Remington just came in last and are now grabbing at straws trying to save their line up. Lawdog

8x68S?

The new short mags going the same speed as the old mags just didnt pull my string.I think the 338 win mag will be here long after the short mags are gone.The 338 wsm is not a barm burner its almost a 338-06 in short case.Craig Boddington didnt think it would be factory cartridge.The big Bass Pro Shop is pushed by Remington to push its guns.They sell more guns and ammo that way.It was a case of too many at one time for all to survive.I think the 270 will way out last the 270 wsm.The 300 Wsm is the leader of the short caese .The wssm look like they are not for people with arthritis to load.Its marketing to sell more guns to the less hunters there are around.Its exciting to young folks to read article then go look for new gun.I did it with 357 rem max in one month out next month.That was last impulse buy on new chambering I did.I always wanted a 338-378 KT but jumped on Weatherby 338-378 the king of the hill long range toteable big game rifles.Its funny Remington just brought back from the dead the 350 rem mag and 6.5 rem mag.Those two calibers 6.5mm and .358 have never done good in America.The 25-06 is kinda fading away ,they are hard to find in a store these days.The 6 mm remington has disapeared just about.Remington is pushing its new chamberings and wiping away the competion in its own rifle.It will be funney to see guys looking for collector ammo in 20 years for their wssm and rsmu ammo.I think the 300 wsm will stay around ,no telling about the others.The ultra mags are on down hill slide.

To each his own. I ain't buying any cartridge designed after 1920!

I must say I agree with Johan. There have been several beltless mags around since the first half of last century. The 9.3x64 Brenneke, 8x68S, .404 Jeffery - has proven that they will last. I also hope the very fine Dakota line of cartridges will survive (I hope Dakota will have made better brass for them. The cases are often too soft).

As for the short - fat - mags: The .300 WSM seems to be the winner. Here in Europe the .270 caliber has never catched on. The 7mm WSM may make it (agree with Sabot on this one; many will jump to the .30 cal.) Here in Scandinavia Norma has started making the 6.5-.284 Norma (Win) - one might call this a "beltless mag" also - and it has proven to catch on in long range target shooting - I predict this is a survivor.



- On some other string here someone said: Many of the new mags is a solution for a problem that don't exist.

Gentlemen

The young new hunters will become mature. When I was fresh, I liked the fast new calibers. The flashier the better. After a while you understand that the old fart rifles camberings will do about the same with style. I used to own a blaser R-93 when I was fresh, now the opinion is a bit different

I 'm happy that my grand fathers were understanding enough and handed me classic firearms in early age

/ JOHAN

I am curious. Where is the data showing the RUM is on the down hill slide. It may be, I don't know. Just curious on where data like this exists. I saw alot more of those for sale at Bass Pro and cabelas than I did 300win mags. Don't mean they are selling them.

I agree the Rem SAUM calibers are not going to make it - too few guns available and less capacity/performance than the WSMs. If you are getting older, or you plan to hunt over long distances these new WSM cartridges let you carry a lighter, handier rifle (coupled with recoil pad technology and muzzle brakes) and still get good performance without getting hit hard. I see a fair number of older guys drooling after short mags - not just kids. I agree the 300 WSM is likely to be the king of this group.

In RUM, I think the 338 will not make it, since they reduced case capacity - On the other hand the .375 RUM is a big step above the 375 HH and being a bit fatter, with heavy for caliber bullets, doesn't seem to be overbore or to burn barrels like the 300 or 7mm. My son and I got a 375RUM, and frankly it is quite nice to shoot, quite fasible to use. We are thinking more western, Alaska, Africa hunting in part because of this boomer. Around us the 300 RUM was the big seller, but you see a lot of used ones on the racks already and guys complain of too much recoil, and expense, and burned barrels. Maybe out west, but not much of a Pennsylvania - eastern gun.

The WSSMs are very interesting to me, but you cannot get them - I think that is because Browning has made some misteps initially, but in the long run I think these will be very useful as varminters, and deer rifles for small people (women and kids - we need them!). Browning COnsumer services told me they are way behind in shipping, the varminter A-bolt is not shipping at all yet, but that is because they will all have chrome barrels - but still meet varminter accuracy standards. This is a big "if" for me, but again, chrome has proven value and if these fast cartridges could be offered with better barrel life,that would be a good step forward. Too soon to judge for me on the WSSMs.

I agree with the post that these guns are important to the future of shooting - they are not really new technology with a lot of target and shooting background - PPC, etc. It doesn't have to be 100 years old to be good. And change is not necessarily bad.

Harmless

I can't see the RUMS falling by the wayside.

The long term success of the 375 H&H and the various Weatherbys shows that a lot of shooters like very powerful rifles. Essentially the RUMs maximise the power available from actions like the Rem 700 or Model 70.

One question mark that would exist is if the prices of the rifles and cases/ammo is matched up to sales of rifles and components.

One often sees shooters question why the 35 Whelen drops away but the 375 H&H continues. The reason is that everthing 375 H&H is priced quite a bit higher and the 375 H&H market/buyer will bear the extra pricing.

Perhaps to remain viable the RUMs might need higher pricing on rifles and components.....but whether the market would bear that price would be open to question.

Weatherby clearly proves with calibre/rifles such as 378 and 460 that calibres can remain totally viable if the pricing is high enough and people pay the price. Apparently Weaterby has dropped the 338/06 chambering in the Ultra Light. A safe bet would be that more of those sold than do 378s and 460s but the propblem is that the 338/06 was only carrying 270 type pricing.

Mike

I hope the entire U.M. family survives. They are good, affordable guns made by one of the biggies, not a custom proposition.
I'll never understand the short fat cartridge craze. A good idea and all, but it is at its best with the bench rest boys IMHO. A magnum .22?? Ha...I don't know about you, I'll just grab my .22-250.
On a more serious note, I hope the .338 U.M. goes on to become the most popular. Even if it doesn't, it will never go away.

Gentlemen

The Canadian Imperial Magnum was quite well designed cartridges that were long before the RUM'S. They didn't live long. I think the dakota line from 7mm-375 is the best "short" magnums.

/ JOHAN

Johan, was the Canadian magnum ever pushed by a major firearms manufacturer? I don't think so. Not sure, maybe you can verify.

Big country: No it was not just marketed by CIL but it is now,The RUM's are exactly the same dimentions as the Imperial cartridges.
In fact I bought some 375 Rum cases and run them trough a 360 Imp. die to make a 358 Rum if you will.

Regards Martin

bigcountry

I have seen a few 691 sako's with McMillan synthetic stocks in Sweden. Was offerd one for approx 400$, was never really interested. I have no idea if there was anyone that made rifles in the caliber?

/ JOHAN

So Johan, do you believe the Canadian Imperial would have survived if it was pushed very hard by Winchester, Remington, Sako, Tikka, Browning, CZ, or any of the major firearms manufacutures?

bigcountry

No idea . Why didn't anyone pick up the G&A line of cartridges?

/ JOHAN

G&A is not exactly a major gun manufacture. I saw a wildcat the other day a big gun author in American Rifleman. Doesn't mean it has a chance. STW is the one shining star everyone goes back too.

The Canadian Imperial Magnum was quite well designed cartridges that were long before the RUM'S. They didn't live long.

I own a 7mm imperial mag and it is virtually identical to the 7mm ultramag.The imperial mags could have done much better if they had been adopted by a major company.I believe that the 300ultramag will end up the most popular of the ultramags and will survive while the remington rsum line will fade away.

IMHO, the 270 and 300 WSM have the best chance for wide acceptance with the RUM holding on for a sort of specialist niche. I just don't think many are going to be dumping their .22-.250, .243 Win, or 7mm-08 Rem for the similar caliber short mags. Remington really fell asleep at the switch on this bandwagon, they might as well lengthen the magazine box on their short action rifle and go with what will sell. Look at companies like Kimber, they have two basic models of rifles, one for the .308 class of cartridges and the other for the WSM - not for the RSAUM. CZ'z new Model 3 also WSM only.

My current selection is a Model 7 in 6mm Rem (that I am planning on rebarreling to 260 Rem), a Model 700 BDL in .308 Win., and a Model 700 in 300 Win. Mag. I have decided that if I am going to carry a big, heavy, rifle I am going to get a .375 H&H and sell off the .300; I've got a friend that has a .375 and with 235 Barnes Xs at about 2800 fps, he claims it just deadly on all kinds of game. Besides, I'll need it in 2-3 years for my trip to Africa. The rifle I grab when I head out to hunt is the .308, and with 150 Fail Safes it has killed everything it has been shot at - to date 3 hogs and 6 deer. It also doesn't bother my wife with heavy recoil. With heavier bullets, say the 168 Barnes TSX, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for elk out to 300+ yards. If I need more, then I'll take my "soon to be purchased" .375 H&H. If I ever needed a truely long range pronghorn/sheep rifle, I would invest in either the Kimber or CZ in 270 WSM.