Stricktly cases.
Which do you prefer and why?

Cases based on .308 parent
or cases based on 7x57 parent

since your case capacities are a wash.
i prefer the x57 case.
mainly cause it is on a long action.
and with cast loadsyou stack the powder
column better.

I far prefer the 'X57 cases.....but we really need to be asking deer and elk and a few Kudu!

x57

sice the majority of actions nowdays are either short 08 or long 06 i see little use to not use an 06 based if over a x57.

Kay,, what in the heck are you talking about??
Have they fried your noodle in the political forum??

To answer your question,, I far prefer a x08 over an x57.
For only one reason, I do not have to use a long action to get better effectiveness.

I hate waste in a gun, and unfortunatly unless you have a rare mid range action for your x57 you are going to have simply a "tweener".

I truly believe that the action should match the cartridge, a short action is built around an 08 sized case.
A medium action is built around an 06 case and a long action is built around an H&H CASE.

The midsized Mauser action is built for the 57 case.

In a sensible world of logic the 08 should have never happened. roger

Seems like everyone has a belly-button here - so I will say X57 and for most of the same reasons.

The Rem 700 short action, BTW, will work OK with the 57mm case. Not the best, but OK.

Ray

Big can"O" worms! I like the x57 case, BTW, the 30.06 is based on the 8x57, not 7x57.
The .308/ 7.62x51 has many high points, but in my humble opinion the 57mm case wins. A true Mauser action would be perfect. jp

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
Kay,, what in the heck are you talking about??
Have they fried your noodle in the political forum??

To answer your question,, I far prefer a x08 over an x57.
For only one reason, I do not have to use a long action to get better effectiveness.

I hate waste in a gun, and unfortunatly unless you have a rare mid range action for your x57 you are going to have simply a "tweener".

I truly believe that the action should match the cartridge, a short action is built around an 08 sized case.
A medium action is built around an 06 case and a long action is built around an H&H CASE.

The midsized Mauser action is built for the 57 case.

I agree, I like a short action carbine. I currently have two in 7mm-08, a Savage Sierra and a Mannlicher style carbine from Remington's Custom Shop. I wouldn't trade either of them.

Only thing the /57 case gives over the /08 is velocity. I'll take the /08 case.

i stopped using long action years ago, im an _08 person, when i really found out just what the short actions can really do

im not saying i prefer the 06 over an 08.
im saying that the 57 is a waste in a long action. if your going to do bigger than 51mm you might as well go to an 06 base.

/

Alf, would you please stop talking sense!

This is supposed to be a brainless argument, and you're ruining it.

The 7x57 case for sure. Who cares about short actions anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
The 7x57 case for sure. Who cares about short actions anyway.

Short people??? I didn't know there would be a test!! roger

The fly in the soup is that if you have to go to the medium 06 action then there are LOTS better rounds that fit in it than a 7x57.

The ONLY reason I would ever have a x57 cased anything is if I had an action that was designed around it.

Isn't it great that we have both? No one has to compromise his preference.
.

bucko
Weren't almost all the 98 actions designed for the 8x57? I like the 7x57, but if it wasn't available, you could use the 7-08 for a lifetime and never notice a difference. If I were to build a 7-08, I would want it throated for 160's, hell it might not fit a short action then.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
There is IMO a huge difference !

And here it is:

THE LEED DIMENSION of the 7x57 allows for the seating and shooting of 175 gr bullets without significant compromise of the combustion chamber volume 19.2mm vs ""5.24 mm"" of the 7-08.

I certainly agree with your intent, but is the 5.24 mm a typo? roger

I will opt for the 7x57 any day..I can shoot heavy bullets in it for one thing and I can seat bullets out far enough, with a little tweeking at the chamber if needed, and a 06 magazine to make it shoot beside a .280 Rem. if I need to...and it will beat the socks of Factory 7 Mag., but not a handloaded 7 Mag.

These are very inexpensive conversions and from a practical standpoint you can have a 7x57 Imp. without improving it!! but still shoot std. ammo without loss of accuracy.

OR if your amind to and don't want to deal with the extra work just find one of the lovely little Brnos made in the late 40s or 50s, models 21 or 22, they are allready set up from the factory as stated above.

If you are not a handloader and can live with bullets to 150 grs. then the 7-08 is an excellent cartridge, but it lacks the powder capacity in that one has to seat bullets too deep, thus taking up the powder space with heavy bullets and velocity suffers greatly.

Are not the 8x57's built on the "Large Ring" Mauser action as opposed to the "Small Ring" or medium actions that the 7x57's pioneered?

I looked and looked in my reloading books and it seemed like the reloading companies load the 7-08 to produce, generally the same performance as the 7x57.

/

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF:
Bartsche:

No typo:

Thanks ,Alf We are now in tune ! roger

Alf, please tell me, is the CIP leed for the 7x57R the same as the 7x57? Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by 45otto:
Stricktly cases.
Which do you prefer and why?

Cases based on .308 parent
or cases based on 7x57 parent

The question, as I read it, is which case do we each prefer to use as a base for making other cases, for other chamberings. I didn't read it as asking which is the better factory round.


In that instance, I go with the guy who said neither...the .30-06 would be his preference. I assume (dangerous as that is) that if he lived in Europe, he'd say "Neither, but cases based on the 9.3x62 (or 7x64)". I'd still agree with him.

The reason for my agreeing with him is: With the .30-06 or 9.3x62 case for a basis, I can make both the case and leed to whatever lengths I would want, to best utilize the space available in whichever bolt action I choose to use (or have available). For single shots I'd use something else entirely.


As to whether I would prefer a long or short action, that would depend on what I wanted the cartridge to do, and how I would be using the rifle. For most purposes, even now in my 70's I don't find the weight difference or length significant for my uses.

I've always believed Townie Whelan who used to say that if a man can't carry 1/20th of his body weight in the field, he doesn't belong in the field with a gun. Yes, there are exceptions, but not a heck of a lot of them.

You guys are all welcome to choose elsewise, but those are my views and they work for me. YMMV legitimately.

Interesting to note,(and if IRCC) Bell said something along the lines, that, if he had his time again, he would prefer to take his many elephants with a short action 308win.
me personally, a Brno H21-22 in 8x57 is one of the nicest hunting combos i can think of.

O/

I like long heavy bullets for certain uses as well, they work, yet in a day of premium bullets, and let's face it, if you are not K Bell, you don't take thousands of big game animals a year, then a premi is not that expensive, that said, I'd reckon a 308 based round running Premi bullets has SIMILAR killing effects on game vs 57 based rounds using longer bullets. I think a say 7/08 case will maximize both killing power and trajectory using quality bullets in the 140-154 range. I'd gladly use a 160-175 in it or the 7x57 but trajectory will often suffer. One exception is the 162 amax, has great accuracy/reach if you have enough bbl even in a 7/08 to get close to 2700 but it's more suited-does well I understand on deer/hogs, but you'd want to avoid elk, and a traditional 160-175 may/may not offer the expansion of a lighter faster bullet downrange, nor the trajectory for longer shots.

True enough, if I were looking at a Griz or moose and wanted max thump on closer shots, I'd gladly use a 160 partition or even up to a well constructed 175, but enough success has been seen with newer tech bullets that maintain weight, and penetration w/good frontal area upon expansion to show that heavies are not often needed, and may not offer improved results over traditional cup/core bullets.

When I want more than a 7mm of any weight, I want a 338 or 35 cal, or larger, then I have a very discernable increase in what many term 'knock down power', due to larger mass/frontal area with deep penetration. I think those mid bores surely offer added impact over 30s. The 30's have proven themselves, but other than super long range trajectory, I'd rather a 338 over a 300 myself.

So, My opinion, I like the short actioned 08 based rounds, but one exception, I'll gladly shoot a 6.5x55, which my current one is in a single shot so it's irrelevant to action length concerns. When I retract a long action with my head down on the cheek, the bolt comes very close to my eye.....in the even you get/need a second shot for say deer, I don't like that....YMMV. Differences are truly subtle in weight, bolt length/stroke length etc.

I do agree with statements above, when using a long 'med' action, an '06 case may better utilize space. 338/06, 35 whelen, 338 Win mags and 375's, 416's.....yes.....much more horsepower to have on hand if you are going to use the same chassis.

Nothing wrong w/57 based rounds, work well, mild, and very 'classic', I like the 7x57, just have yet to own one....yet.

They all work, pick a good rifle that fits and shoots consistent, load a quality suitable bullet for target intended, place your shot well and bring a sharp knife!

Just a thought, I also seem to remember something about Bell and the 308 being mentioned togetehr.
Although I seem to remember that it was in an article by someone else and in it they said something to the effect that Bell might well have preferred a 308 if it had been around.

Not sure who wrote it but to be fair I do seem to remember reading that.

7-08 without a doubt. Nothing wrong with the 7x57 however. I heard so many ludittes whining about the 7x57 however that I bought one just to see. There's no difference. The myth about the heavier bullets ain't true. I didn't shoot any 175's from either of them because I don't use them. But I do shoot 160's from my 7mag and the 7-08 and the 7x57 both handled them equally well.
Now I'm sure someone will pop up and say if you have a specially cut chamber with a specially cut leade with a specially cut twist, the 7x57 will outdo the 7-08, etc, etc. But that argument can be made both ways. As posted, to put a 7x57 in a standard (30-06) length action is rather foolish since there are so many other cartridges better suited. The .280 being one if you must have a 7mm. I think the intermediate sized action from a Yugo 48 action would make into a nice 7x57 rifle. But, by the same token, think of all the basically useless .243's sitting around waiting to be rebarreled into 7-08's if you're looking to go the custom route.

quote:

But, by the same token, think of all the basically useless .243's sitting around waiting to be rebarreled into 7-08's if you're looking to go the custom route.

Strange you should say that! I have two new ( 50 rounds or less )take off barrels in the last 6 months; one is .243 and the other is 7-08.

Does anyone doubt that if the US military had adopted the .300 Savage instead of the .308 that this thread would be a discuusion of the 7mm X 57mm vs. the 7 x .300 Savage. The introduction of the .308 was a military BLUNDER from the start.An intelligent natural progression from the 8mm Kurz and the M43 Russian would have been something like a 6.5 X 41mm w/ a 110gr. bullet.

Had that happened, however, we wouldn't be here having this discussion about a family of cartridges inaugerated in 1952 that brought nothing to the table. roger

Hmmmm, 7mm IHMSA...aka 7/300 Savage, sure would work well, and could use high bc/sd bullets, but a 110gr 6.5 mm would lose too much BC IMHO and be going backwards for long range work. A 6.5 grendel, a small case by many standards will use a 123-139 grain well, and some loads reportedly surpass a 308 downrange.....but a 110 would be low on BC and sacrifice long range potential.....

That said a 6.5x47 Lapua through 260 would be a 'right sized' military round, the former using 308 case head also, fit into 308 size actions bolt/semi/auto etc. and can still use a long high bc bullet passing 308/168 loads, lesser recoil, increased shootability/controllability, only downside is shorter bbl life......

But that was a side bar discussion.....now a 6PPC/BR fast twist w/105-108's would also surprise many, but guns would have to be designed to feed those reliable. All better than 223 IMHO, even the 6.8-something I do not get excited about, though the 6.5 RLB (6.8 40 degree necked down) or a 6mm version might do well......

Maybe if the 'Gub ment' ever got serious on improving the 223 and 308, we'd see a mid sized round in 6-7mm that would offer more than those two, as well as the attempt by Rem to make the 6.8 a mil round. A mistake on my part, missing longer range potential of better rounds.

I would not hold my breath on a change of rounds used, esp. the 308, as I believe the 223 would be replaced first due to many soldiers dying when their prairie dog cartridge failed to stop enemy troops.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Oldun:

19.69 mm for the 7x57R

Thank You

Personally NEITHER! 280 Remington...if I could get one with 24" barrel, iron sights, five shot capacity, blued and wood.

/

How about a 7x57 action with a .284 winchester in the chamber to use the longer seating depth? Got one of those!

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
Hmmmm, 7mm IHMSA 110gr 6.5 mm would lose too much BC IMHO and be going backwards for long range work. but a 110 would be low on BC and sacrifice long range potential.....

Beyond 300 yards I could not agree with you more.

Deadly Accurate shooting beyond that (Sniper Plus) Dictates another and more potent round. One of our military's biggest failings is trying to do everything with the same cartridge and a lot of nodding heads contributing to the nonsense.Sadly the US Military has had an aversion to copy what is good because it did not adhere to the "it was created here" policy. I wonder what Forest Gump would have to say about that box of candy? roger

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Personally NEITHER! 280 Remington...if I could get one with 24" barrel, iron sights, five shot capacity, blued and wood.

Enfield, what about the other great German round the 7X64? It's the round Remington copied when they brought out the 280 Remington.