It's Spring and time to build a new gun.

Back in January we discussed my interest in a high performance .35 caliber. Something with legs beyond the .358 Norma or STW. Looking for performance around 3000 fps with a 250gr Nosler Partition. My thoughts are to take a .350 Rigby case and remove some of the body taper and increase the shoulder slightly.

Paul H - You said that John Ricks was working on a 35 Ultra Mag. Do you have any more performance information regarding this case design? This may be a better solution to the Rigby approach...

350 Rigby, 35 RUM, 35 Rock Express, 360 Imperial Magnum, 35-378 Wby, 35-416 Rigby. How fast do you want to go? - Dan

Dan the man !!

What ballistically potential do the .360 Imperial Magnum have,,compared to 35-378 Wby, or 35/416 rigby ? I mean,,the cartridge looks huge !

Actually Per, the case capacity of a 360 Imperial will be a little less then the 35-378, which in turn is a little less then the 35-416 Rigby Improved. The 35-416 Rigby (non-improved version, has about the same case capacity as the 35-378, just without the belt). The 360 Imperial is based on full length 404 Jeffrey brass, necked to 35 and improved. I only know one guy with one of these, he claims 3200 fps with 250 gr bulllets (26" barrel). I haven't shot it or chrono'ed it, so I don't know for sure. A company calles NASS (North American Shooting Systems, I think) was building these in BC awhile back. Perhaps some of our BC posters have more info on these Imperial magnums. I do know they were out and about long before the RUM's, Dakotas, et al. Howells case book gives the 360 a case capacity of 149 gr water, as opposed to , say the 338 Lapua, which is given a case capacity of 158 gr water. Just for info, the 350 Rigby has 124 gr water CC (case capacity), the 358 Norma Magnum has 121-122 gr water CC, 358 STA has 128 gr water CC, the 378 Wby case has 175 gr, 404 Jeffery has 150-151 gr, 416 Rigby case has 175 gr, 375 Dakota has 135 gr. I couldn't find the measurements for the wildcat versions of some of these, so you'll have to extrapolate from the base case. seems to me a 338 Lapua case necked up to 35 and improved would be a real barn burner. I may have to build one to add to my growing stable of 35's. - Dan

358 stw will do 3000 with a 250 . I have pushed my Norma to 3000 with 250 Hornady Rn . My rifle long throat I was younger and no longer feel the need for that much speed .

I don't think it's uncommon to get 3000 fps out of a 26" bbl 358 STA and 250gr bullets.
If you want mor, definitely the Lapua, or improved version thereof, woudl be a great way to go. Of course, the bigger they are, the fewer fit in the mag, and speaking energy-wise, losing one cartridge means you're down 5000 ft/lbs or so.
I'm enamored lately with the short Jeffery case, a la Dakota, Howell and others. Interesting to note that the 330 Dakota has 3gr more water capacity than the STA case, and that's with a smaller neck-hole. I'm sure you could do the same thing with one as the other.
Given that, if you want to accelerate your male-pattern baldness, then the mag-length Jeffery (360 Imperial) would prolly do the trick, and you could have the same mag capacity with some minor alterations to the follower.

Zero Drift -- You mentioned a 250 grain bullet at 3000 fps. My fastest 26 inch .358 STA barrel gives me the following speeds. Hottest 250 load to date a 250 grain Swift A-Frame at 3176 fps. This was a little hot to use in the field, slightly sticky bolt, bright spot on head. 250 grain North Fork, last four chronographed groups averaging 3123 fps with one inch accuracy, no signs of pressure, but don't need to be any hotter. 225 grain North Forks averaging 3148 fps, no signs of pressure and very accurate, hottest loads over 3200 fps. After fireforming I can get as many as 93.5 grains of RL-22 with the 225 grain bullets. My last two groups of 270 grain North Fork chronographed at the very same speed of 2964 fps with near one hole accuracy. A slower barrel averaged with the same load at 2914 fps. I am not interested in another 100 fps or so at the expense of another 10 to 20 grains of powder. Both my STA's have brakes and are tolerable, but I don't want what that much more powder brings. The question becomes, will that much more powder burn, or be blown. For the hunting rifle I don't want more than a 26 inch barrel. Maybe someone with more smarts than my non-technical brain can answer. Certainly larger cases can be used, for those that try, please report back. Good shooting

[ 05-09-2003, 17:38: Message edited by: phurley ]

Thanks for the replies. I have been considering all these alternatives. Phurley - I know that you can lean on the STW case and get the performance that I am after, however, I would rather have more case capacity and lower pressure.

I am a fan of Dakota cases and have several calibers in the Dakota design. The .404 Jeffery case is a natural launching platform. Accordingly, the .358-.404 Schofield is very close to perfect. It possesses a little more case capacity than the .350 Rigby improved, the correct body taper, and a usable shoulder.

Case dimensions:
Parent Case - .404J non-belted
Base - .5430"
Base to Shoulder - 1.960"
Base to Neck - 2.150"
Shoulder Width - .5290"
Shoulder Angle - 25 degrees
Case OAL - 2.50"

I have no load data or performance data on the cartridge. If anyone knows anything about the cartridge, I would appreciate any info.

Zero Drift -- I have worked with some large cases, not extensively. I worked with a buddies .338 Lapua for months. The problem I have had with the very large cases is accuracy. When I can fill the case I usually get better accuracy, I could never get that Lapua better than an inch, but usually 2.5 to 3 inchs, and I couldn't fill the case. I realize that particular rifle might have been the problem, because I know of some super accurate Lapuas. I wanted to express that caution, your experience may be far beyond mine, the sharing of the information is what this Forum is all about. Good luck with the project and good shooting.

phurley - You might wish to consider Hodgdon's Retumbo. I have used it with very good results in my .338 Lapua. It will certainly give you max load densities...

[ 05-09-2003, 19:35: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Zero,

For what you are after, a 404 or ultra mag based 35 is the answer, though I think the 358 STA will accomplish that at reasonable pressures as well.

When I had my 35 whelen AI, it refused to group unless I pushed 250 gr @ 2700 fps, which is too hot for the case. I then re-chambered to 350 Rigby, and get the same velocity, better accuracy (proper chamber and crown) and reasonable pressures.

I'd peronally go with the 358 STA as I don't mind belts, and that case burns as much powder as I'd care to light off in a 35 bore. Reamers and dies aren't an issue either, and there is load data out as well.

Paul - I hear you loud and clear. Having been down the wildcatting road many times, I am used to pounding square pegs into round holes. There is a lot to be said for off the shelf dies, reamers, brass, and load data.

Being the more adventuresome type (getting there is half the fun), I am after a .35 caliber �project�. Fortunately, I have a great gun smith with the same twisted view. This approach always creates significant headaches, but always presents lots of entertainment.

I believe I have a line on some load and performance data regarding the .358-.404S. If this pans out, my next phone calls will be to Dan Lilja or Krieger (not decided on which) and then to Clymer. I can already hear my gunsmith groaning...

Zero,

I understand the need for a project and I believe the 35/404 will be an outstanding round.

Just think, 225 gr Barnes X @ 3300 fps, as flat shooting as any of the pea shooters, and enough oomph to drop any skin skinned critter.

Zero -- My fastest STA barrel is a Dan Lilja. It is consistently 50 to 100 fps faster than the custom winchester barrel on the other rifle. The chamber is also tighter, which may explain the extra speed. All resized brass fired through the Lilja barrel will chamber in both rifles. The Brass fired through the Winchester then resized will not always chamber in the Lilja. The accuracy is excellent with both. Needless to say I am a fan of the Lilja barrels, while not griping about the Winchester. Remember we want a progress report, good shooting.

Zero -- When you get that rifle built try the North Fork bullets. The 250 and 270 grain .358 bullets are awesome. Easy on the barrel, accurate, tough as the Barnes yet a true and consistent mushroom for those large exit holes. Compare the BC and SD to the .375's with the added speed you can generate and you will have a real whacker. Good shooting.

If you do go with 358 STA beware of buying loaded ammunition from Quality Cartridge of Maryland. I have a customer who has a few boxes that are out of spec, the shoulders are too far forward and they won't chamber in his rifle. His rifle was rebarreled by Shilen and we sent the ammo to A2 and I talked to Art Alphin who verified that the Quality ammo was not to A2's specs. Also if you didn't know the ammo sold through Z-Hat custom in Texas is Quality Cartridge. I have had good experiences with Z-Hat so it's not a knock on Fred Zeglin.
Jason Connerley

Zero Drift, I'm right there with you, by the way.
I think it'll be summer before I actually have the cash in hand, but a hot .35 is definitely on the menu.
If you like the Schofield, you know Dr Howell did near the same thing, and you might find his reamers, etc., easier.
You could ask him for load data, as well.
It ought to go 280@2800fps.
I've been going back and forth between this (or a wildcat of similar design) and the full-length Jeffery myself, not to go any faster, but to keep pressures down. I'd like to do a lot of shooting with this thing, and don't want to watch the barrel rebore itself.
Concerns are accuracy mostly, getting good load density. A swift, well-constructed bullet going the wrong direction is not my idea of a fun way to spend money.
My opinion, a 250gr .358 going Norma speeds or above is a good, healthy overkill for NA big game.
Maybe just as important, good bear defense along the way.

Zero Drift, i understand why you like the Dakota case's. I just got my 9.3/375 Dakota a few weeks ago. Got the last of my reloading components today so i can start loadin for it. A friend of mine saw my loaded round an after some thought he decided to neck the .375 Dakota down to .358 and call it the .358 Sledgehammer. Hornady built the dies and you could get them from them. He has been testing loads and has got 3100 fps with a 250 out of a 24" Douglas barrel and NO signs of pressure at all. I'll talk to him tomorrow and get more details on loads as he has been testing more last weekend if your interested.

Oh, i forgot. The guy i got my .358 Griffin & Howe Imp. and my 9.3 Dakota from has a .360 Imperial and he gets 3100 with a 250 and its a mild load. All three of these rifles were built by Dennis Erhardt here in Helena. Anyway i'll talk to doug and see how testing went last weekend with his .358 Sledgehammer.

Ol Bull - If you consider the case dimensions of the .375 Dakota case, the .358 Sledgehammer and the .358 Schofield are very similar with the same performance potential.

.375 Dakota Case Dimensions:

Parent Case - .404J non-belted
Base - .5450"
Base to Shoulder - 2.061"
Base to Neck - 2.170"
Shoulder Width - .5290"
Shoulder Angle - 30 degrees
Case OAL - 2.57"

I will be very interested in his observations....

Sharps

I too had a bad initial experience with Quality Cartridge. Seems the (3) boxes of 358STA I ordered came in with a bulge at the body taper to shoulder transition. When questioned about this they wanted it back immediately. QC said their dies where worn or bad or something. Said he replaced the dies and sent (4) boxes in return for my trouble. I've been a little leery using this ammo but did shoot (5) 250gr SBT in .6 with it. At least now I have some brass thats ready for reloading.

Scottinpa,
We got ammo from A-Square today and it is correct, of course since the are the sanctioning member of SAAMI for 358 STA it should be. We are using the Quality Cartridges for headstamped brass as well, I pulled 3 rounds and got powder weights of 86.8, 87.3 and 88.1 grains. The shoulder on the QC's were too far forward, I guess he has 358STA "improved" dies.
Jason

Ol Bull, I'm really interested in your friend's Sledgehammer.
I'm looking to do the same thing, though I've been on the fence as to whether to use the 330 or 375 Dakota as parent. The 330 is a half-hair bigger, but I like the idea of necking down more than up.
If this guy has any data on heavier bullets I'd love to hear it. I plan to set it up for 270-280gr.

Really intrigued by the Imperial mag also. One could get same speeds with lower pressures than the 2.5" case, and my Model 70 is a magnum-length-waiting-to-happen anyway, so it seems a shame to waste that room, you know?

Bwana-be, sorry been busy and haven't been here. I'll have all the info for you tomorrow night.

Ok heres some info on Dougs .358 Sledgehammer.

Test #1
Hornady 250SP
95gr. H4831
Fed 215MM
OAL 3.410
2970 fps

Test #2
same bullet
84gr. H4350
Fed 215MM
OAL 3.400
2970 fps
1.21" @ 100 yds

Test #3
same bullet
84.5gr. H4350
Fed 215MM
OAL 3.400
3005 fps
.600" @ 100 yds

Test #4
same bullet
85gr. H4350
Fed 215MM
OAL 3.400
3020 fps
.925" @ 100 yds

I hope this helps guys. If he does anymore testing i'll let you know how it goes. He's very happy with load #3 and plans on loading up more and shooting it for a while. I know the Hornady SP is NOT the bullet to be useing in this gun for Elk but he's young and has to learn the hard way.

OL BULL -- The top load listed 95 grains of 4831. I would be interested to know the case capacity remaining with this load. Another way of putting it, is where is the powder level, in comparison to the shoulder of the case. Good shooting.

Phurley, he said he used a 30" drop tube too get it all in. I'm sure it was FULL! He seems to have a pretty good load with H4350 and he said the recoil was much more pleasant.

OL BULL -- I appreciate very much the information. I just wanted to compare to my STA's. After fireforming new cases I can get 93.5 grains RL-22 in my cases, powder level at the beginning of the neck. I have tried all the powders, absolutely nothing compares with RL-22 for accuracy and speed in my rifles. I was under the impression much more case capacity was possible for the sledgehammer and other similar cases. Thanks again and good shooting.

Bwana-be, how does this compare to the 35 Newton? What does Dr. Howell say about that case?