I have just bought a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1905 9x56MS, and I think it is a very nice full stocked rifle with almost the balance of a good shotgun. I have slugged to barrel with lead and have measured the bore diameter to .346 and the groove diameter to .360, so I believe that I can use .358 bullet. What do you think?

Secondly, Horneber 9x56MS cases are rather expensive, but since I live in Sweden, 9,3x57 and 8x57JS Norma cases are very easy to find and cheap to buy. Which cartridge is best to reform to 9x56MS? Will there be problems using reformed cases in the Mannlicher drum magazine?

Thanks for your time.

Welcome aboard first off,

And I am sorry I can't help you. I think you know more about the MS rifles than I do.

.358 projectiiles will be fine. I would call one of the proof houses in Germany or Austria and double check that.

As far as resizing brass I would buy 20 try them in dummy rounds and see if they feed. No one can tell you if they will feed or not, it would be purely hypothetical.

Best to try it and see what happens. Either they will feed, or they won't. 20 rounds of once fired 8x57 brass should be available for cheap or free damn near anywhere.

Seth

No experience with the 9x56, but 30 years ago I bought a 1908 in 8x56 and all I did was run 8x57 through a sizer die and trim to length. Worked fine. I didn't have a 8x57 in the house at the time, so I didn't have to worry about the headstamp short ammo headspace problem mix up that could occur. I don't see why you couldn't do the same and the larger bullet diameter would keep it from chambering in any 8x57s you might have if ammo was to get mixed up.

According to the official German dimension tables, the bullet diameter for the 9x56MS should be a maximum of 9.08 mm. For a 358 Win it says 9.11 mm and for a 358 Norma mag 9.12 mm. The minimum field/groove dimensions for the 9x56MS are 8.80mm/9.15mm; for the 358Win and for the 358 Norma mag it's 8.89/9.09mm.
Compared with the 8x57JS both the rim and the diameter of the body of the case of the 9x56MS are a bit smaller. All in all I don't see why you shouldn't give it a try.
BTW According to these tables the maximum pressure is only 2400 bar, which is pretty low. (9.3x57 is 2600 bar).

Thanks dutchgus, I will have a go at it...

A friend gave me some figures of the sectional(?) area: 9x56MS: 64,04 mm2 and .358Win: 63,77mm2. Not much difference there, but the 9x56MS has actually a larger "hole".

Which reloading dies do you recommend? The RCBS are rather expensive, what's the general opinion of CH4D?

Remember, it is always easyer to neck down, than neck up, so I would go with the necked down 9,3x57 brass.

Hi CCCp
I own two 9x56 ms one fuu stock and one rifle.
Mines shot very well with .353 bullets that I do with a reducing die from .358
The brass I use is 3006 reformed so I think your choice is good
Don´t try to go far beyond 2000-2150 fps with 250 gr bullets, at that velocity they make one raged hole .
I use 3031 to load them and if you want send me your e-mail and I will send you my loads
Sincerely
Guillermo Trotz

Thanks Bent, I'll get some 9,3x57's

Using 9.3x57mm brass is the way to go. Here in the US, amongst many Mannlicher fans, the 9.3x57mm case has been the "donor of choice" for making M-S ammo.

It appears that you are lucky with your 9x56mm barrel. They often turn up with smaller diameter barrels which prevents use of the available .358 bullets without swaging, etc... I tried to work with the 9x56 for several years and kept finding small diameter barrels, so I gave up. I hope you enjoy your find!

LLS
Mannlicher Collector

quote:

Originally posted by CCCP:
I have just bought a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1905 9x56MS, and I think it is a very nice full stocked rifle with almost the balance of a good shotgun. I have slugged to barrel with lead and have measured the bore diameter to .346 and the groove diameter to .360, so I believe that I can use .358 bullet. What do you think?

Secondly, Horneber 9x56MS cases are rather expensive, but since I live in Sweden, 9,3x57 and 8x57JS Norma cases are very easy to find and cheap to buy. Which cartridge is best to reform to 9x56MS? Will there be problems using reformed cases in the Mannlicher drum magazine?

Thanks for your time.

"According to the official German dimension tables, the bullet diameter for the 9x56MS should be a maximum of 9.08 mm." 9.08mm = .3574803". I would not get too worked up over .0005197 of an inch!

Yes, you can. As long as the cartridge case FREELY RELEASES the bullet on firing. I have used .358 bullets in 9X57 and 9X57R cartridges that had .354" and .355" groove diameters respectively with no problems at all.

As a matter of fact, bullets that are quite oversize can be safely fired in smokeless powder rifles, as long as the case lets go of the bullet! The most extreme example of such a thing I know of was the case wherein a fellow got a .30/'06 chambering reamer, and proceeded to rechamber his 6.5X50mm Arisaka to .30/'06 with no other changes. Before he became aware that the 6.5mm bore should have been enlarged to .300" and rerifled to give a groove diameter of .308", he had fired a considerable number of .30/'06 rounds through the .268" bore - with no ill effects to either gun or shooter!

The rotor is very unforgiving. Until you fire-form the cases, you may only be able to fit one or two cartridges in the magazine.

Same goes for the style of bullet. Use a rounded ogive, keeping OAL to about 3 inches.

Right on, Kurt !!!!!!!!!!

As an aside for anyone buying an old Mannlicher, if the caliber is marked on the barrel and not the receiver ring, look out, you have a rework. As for the magazine, any time a Mannlicher magazine does not work with proper ammunition, you also have some sort of rework.

LLS

Thanks Guys,

Any thoughts on which reloading tools I should buy?

quote:

Originally posted by CCCP:
Thanks Guys,

Any thoughts on which reloading tools I should buy?

Get Redding dies, if they have them for 9X56mm M/S. Otherwise, RCBS...

With regard to the CH4D dies you asked about, my only experience is with a custom die I had them make for a 7.5x55 Swiss K-31 chamber. The die is dimensionally correct, well finshed and functions perfectly. Price was right too.

I have owned a M1905 9X56 since 1980. Decided to make up some more cases for it. Above pic shows cases I made from Lake City 30.06 Match cases.

My original load was 43 gr. IMR 4895 and 250 gr Hornady which was perfect for the original iron sights that came on it.


I plan on trying some 180 Sierra 357 Pistol bullets in it within next few days.

CCCP, if you are new to reloading ammunition for a Mannlicher Schoenauer, here is a tip which can save you much misery. When I first began loading for a 6,5z54 MS carbine, I was surprised to find that my cartridges stopped and would not go up the feed ramp as I tried to chamber them.

After studying the situation, I saw that the cartridges were shorter in overall length than the factory cartridges. The magazine design requires cartridges to e within a certain overall length to feed. The tip of the bullet must be able to engage the feed ramp in order to start the cartridge angling up the feed ramp and out of the magazine.

Once I lengthened my bullet seating to match the design of the magazine, it fed very smoothly! All my shooting was done with the classic, long 160 grain Round Nose flat base bullet that the rifle was designed for, and accuracy was excellent.

I did not work with lighter, spire point or spitzer design bullets, as I was hunting in dense forest where 100 yards would be a long shot. The original ballistics worked fine for me. I did always wonder if I would have problems making lighter weight spitzers feed well or shoot accurately. My concern was due to the rifle barrel's throat being designed for the long, blunt 160 gr. round nose bullets.

I only mention that here, to help you be aware of things that could cause problems at some point. They will be easy to fix if you are aware of them.

I hope this helps!

John

I've had the same experience with my Greek 6.5x54, John, with pointed 140-grain bullets.

I thought being pointed would make them feed easier but, no, not until I loaded to the full magazine length would they come up properly.

I know a number of people that shot .358 bullets in their Manlicher/Shoenauers, including myself and they worked just fine..Best I recall I used Speer cup and core bullets, Sierras, and Hornadys best I recall, whish I had kept that gun.

Load a test round with a .357" diameter pistol bullet and after firing, check to make sure that a .358" diameter rifle bullet will pass freely into the neck of the unsized case. If it does, you're good to go.

I have had excellent service and good luck with CH4D dies. They have supplied some odd calibers which other makers shunned.

I have several 9X57 Mausers and one 9X56 M/S. They all function and shoot well with .358 bullets.

Hey, I just wanted to chime in about dies; I have used CH4D for a Mannlicher proprietary cartridge also (8x56MS) and have been pleased. RCBS is great also.