I have heard terms like Pre Garcia Sako rifles---what is up with that?

Good, Bad or what ever! Enlighten me!

Hip

No body can tell me about this! Every gun show I go to and someone is pushing Sakos they list it as Pre Garcia----Cmon---think hard guys!

Hip

Quality supposedly declined when Garcia became the importer I believe in the 70’s. Probably doubtful but they did now sport an import mark under the barrel in front of the forend. Collectors don’t like that sort of thing. All from memory so fwiw.

kda----Thank You!

Hip

"Pre-Garcia" is a misnomer which refers to the U.S. importer of Sakos. It is meaningless to other parts of the world where there were various other distributors of the Sako line. Typically, the yokels behind the tables at the guns shows don't have any idea what it means and as often as not they are misrepresenting the rifle they're hawking.

The Sakos made up until about 1968-69 were slightly lighter with more slender stocks and barrels than those made afterward. Firearms International (FI) was the importer until 1971 at which time Garcia took over. The late FI and early Garcia rifles were identical. However, some people began to notice that the post-1968 rifles were heavier and associated that with Garcia taking over importation -- but Garcia had nothing to do with it -- the heavier rifles were simply what Sako was building.

Around 1972-73 the European currencies were at a high point against the U.S. currency, making everything produced in Europe more expensive for American buyers. Sako was having a hard time competing on price, so they introduced the Sako Model 72 as a slightly downgraded rifle which sold at a more competitive price. Garcia was the importer by this time so this is primarily the origin of the myth that the "pre-Garcia rifles are somehow superior, despite the fact that Sako continued making and selling its standard and Deluxe rifles to the same quality standards. (Ironically, the lower-priced Model 72 has garnered somewhat of a collector following in recent years and sells at essentially the same price as the contemporary standard grade.)

One truly distinguishing factor, which is found on some "pre-Garcia" rifles is the "Bofors Steel" stamp on barrels prior to about 1969. Lots of pre-Garcia rifles do NOT have this stamp. The stamp itself is meaningless since Sako did not stop using Bofors steel, they only stopped using the stamp due to not having permission from Bofors to use their name.

There are good points an weaker points to both "pre-Garcia" (actually, pre-1969) rifles compared to later models. I happen to like the lighter, more slender early rifles. Later ones tended to have better wood. Neither tends to be more accurate than the other, but the slightly heavier barrel on the post-1968 models might hold its zero a bit better on an extended string of shots. Some people think that having the third (rear) locking lug on the long action (L61R) makes it "pre-Garcia", but Garcia imported quite a few three-lug action prior to Sako dropping the superfluous third lug.

If you want to get deeper into the weeds on this subject check out the Sako Collectors Club forum at www.sakocollectors.com/forum/

In the meantime, if you run across someone at a gun show hawking a Sako as "pre-Garcia" ignore that and evaluate the rifle based on its obvious qualities. About as often as not they'll be wrong about it, anyway. Unless you're a Sako collector, why would you care? And you certainly wouldn't have any business paying a premium for a "feature" you neither understood nor cared about.

Never seen a Sako that is not well built and of very good quality.

To me, Sako makes the best rifles in Europe, bar non.

We get them every year.

This is just plain bullshit!

Sako makes REAL rifles.

The Germans and Austrians do too, but the problem with both are being so engrossed in making outlandish designs.

I have a whole bunch of them here, and Sako are the only ones I like.

Stone,

Thanks! That is the info that I was looking for!!!

Hip

Last night I was reading the Sako section in the 2019 Blue Book.

It saya: "in 2000 Sako in Finland sold out to

Berretta Holdings of Italy. Nothing much is

further said about it other than to contact

Berretta/USA in Md.

George

Last Sunday a shooter at our Rod and Gun Club and a stainless Sako 85 300 win mag Blow up on him using factory ammo. He was shooting strings of 4 shorts using "high end" ammo giving the gun a rest after each string by going down range to check targets. He then switched to cheaper Federal "blue box" factory ammo. 180 gr out of the box. When he pulled the trigger on the first Federal round the gun literally exploded nearly taking off his Right thumb. The bolt held but two of the 3 lugs sheared. The barrel was intact. The synthetic stock blew apart, the scope was wrecked and actually departed the gun . The action failed. As to injuries he has some small abrasions and contusions to the face. His something penetrated the lense of his glasses over the left eye. His right hand took the brunt of the force and he was flown out of town for emergency surgery. The whole thing was caught on the closed circuit TV we have on the shooting line ( to catch vandals). Vortex have already offered to replace the scope. The blown case and 19 remaining rounds are going back to Federal for analysis... as for the Sako , they are reluctant to accept and responsibility as the gun is older than 2 years ?

That's bad luck and a big worry. I'd seen a blown-up L461 and heard that the L579 bolt was a bit slim but nothing bad after that. Hopefully my 40-year-old AV Finnbear will continue to hold together.

I wonder why he was shooting four-shot groups.

ALF: Please keep us updated as this incident is investigated. I own 6 Sako rifles and have had no problems with them. One of mine is the Model 85 stainless steel in .300 Win. This sounds like an ammunition issue to me, but it is too early to really know until Federal does their analysis. Thanks. Dale

Sounds like pre Garcia means about the same thing as "vintage, a term many sellers on EBAY use. They list currently made (in China) Bausch&Lomb binoculars as vintage. Vintage means nothing.

I got to take pictures of the remnants of this rifle today and its interesting.

The case did not blow and the primer is intact.
The bullet actually went down the bore and exited.
The mouth of the case crushed as it blew back when the bolt and action frame failed.

The ammo is a year old. Out the box stock standard blue box federal 180 gr factory ammo

The 2 rounds that were still in the mag are severely dented at the shoulder.

The bottom metal was found, the mag well blown out like a wine vat and the frame holding the bottom metal also blown out

The barrel is pristine !

The bolt sheared two of the 3 lugs.
There is a crack in the action body starting at the bolt root. looks like the bolt root acted like a rear lug and stopped the bolt from going back.

The bolt shroud blew off, the firing pin left the gun and mainspring is missing
The scope is bent, the Sako Mounts still on the scope but separated from the action. The top of the front bridge less than a 1/4 of the cicumernece with threads for barrel was found.

The action literally disintegrated and most is missing. The bottom of the rear ring is still attached to the trigger mechanism. The sear and its pivoting pin attached to a piece of the bottom part of the rear ring.


It looks like this action failed under load. Action frame and bolt.

I have 1/4 second video frame pictures when the gun blew. The 1/4 second before the rigger was pulled and then 2 frames as the gun blew !

I don't scare easily but this is literally like a grenade going off less than 2 inches from your face and eyes ! Lucky for the shooter everything went up, down an mostly forward

Sure would like to see the video.

Clip taken off the video as the rifle blows. The shooter has not even reacted yet

The case

WOW!!

That's one big bang !

Good God ! A nightmare scenario.
I'm glad the shooter didn't come out worse off than he was.
Gets me thinking. Was there a check done of the bullet diameter in the suspect Federal blue box ammo ?
Very unusual that a Sako would fail like that.

To the contrary there was a spate of blow ups that resulted in recalls of both Sako's and Tikkas some years ago. There are still photos floating around the internet.

The only thing that I can think of is Ammonia corrosion and stress cracking of steel and brass alloys. With all the ammonia based cleaning agents ( used to clear copper from barrels) I worry about the ammonia getting into the action and when combined with high humidity, which we have in BC its a recipe for disaster. I have removed all ammonia containing solvents from my gun room !

Maybe a dumb question. If the case was not blown out and the bbl was not damaged, how did the gas get in the action to blow things up? What would have caused the case mouth to crush?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
To the contrary there was a spate of blow ups some years ago.

I remember those.

Looking at the brass and the whole thing the only conclusion I can come to is that the load was normal, the bullet exited the barrel as it should but the action and bolt failed under what is assumed as "normal " for load bolt thrust. I shoot a 300 Win mag in a Tikka, have been shooting it for years and suddenly I have lost trust after seeing this go down.

This the rear bed part of the action frame with the trigger still attached. The Surface of the fractured steel is interesting

I don't understand where the brass vapor spray came from, it's on the bolt and in the lug area of the action. The case in the photo doesn't show any gas damage. Is it possible the rifle was stressed by a previous overload?

I still can't understand why, if the bolt was retained by the bolt root, and there was no gas released from the base of the brass or from the barrel, what caused the bolt shroud to be blown off and the magazine, trigger guard to be misshapen.

Firing pin


Mainspring still missing so are the critical pieces of the action that contain the recesses for the lugs. The owner took my magnetic shop " broom" out to the range to see if he can find these pieces.

thirdbite
posted 24 September 2022 11:15
Maybe a dumb question. If the case was not blown out and the bbl was not damaged, how did the gas get in the action to blow things up? What would have caused the case mouth to crush?

rglenz
posted 24 September 2022 14:09
I don't understand where the brass vapor spray came from, it's on the bolt and in the lug area of the action. The case in the photo doesn't show any gas damage. Is it possible the rifle was stressed by a previous overload?

thirdbite
one of us
posted 24 September 2022 14:31 Hide Post
I still can't understand why, if the bolt was retained by the bolt root, and there was no gas released from the base of the brass or from the barrel, what caused the bolt shroud to be blown off and the magazine, trigger guard to be misshapen.

I'm also having difficulty trying to understand what actually happened. The video frame clearly shows a violent explosion. Could there have been something that detonated in the magazine ? I could be completely wrong here but looking at the video frame the shooters hand seems to be positioned as if holding the bolt handle rather than on the trigger. Just wondering if maybe the round was somehow detonated as chambering started, or even just before that. Whatever, would sure like to know what happened.

Also, the shooter is not bent forward and snugged up to the butt as one would expect having just fired the shot. Seems the blow-up has occurred either pre or post the fired shot.

quote:

ALF
posted 24 September 2022 09:36
To the contrary there was a spate of blow ups that resulted in recalls of both Sako's and Tikkas some years ago. There are still photos floating around the internet.

Well, please pardon me. I didn't know that.

On the spat of blue ups.

https://sakocollectors.com/for...lown-up-rifles.2453/

On those rifles, the barrel went.

A good friend of mine blames all of this on the type of SS Sako uses.

Winchesters and no ammonia for me.

Just googled for pics.
Sako blow up: at least three different rifles
Tikka blow up: more than one rifle
Howa blow up: none
I am aware that there are more Sako rifles around than Howa’s but nevertheless…

Alf,
Where was that fired case found ( in your pic ) ?

Stonecreek is the Sako man! Never fails to impress!

What are we to make of that link?

The dodgy pics and banning make me wonder if anything about it can be trusted.

It might even pay not to go there in case it carries a bug.

If referring to the link I posted. The recall over explosions is clear and stated.

quote:

sambarman338
posted 27 September 2022 02:23
What are we to make of that link?
The dodgy pics and banning make me wonder if anything about it can be trusted.
It might even pay not to go there in case it carries a bug.

I've checked the link from LHeym500. Looks quite legit to me.

I will note, again, that the recall notice posted on Sako Collector’s Forum identified blown barrels.

I have no ideas how this action was supposed to go without a case rupturing or detonation in the mag box. However, when I say I have no idea, I mean I do not know what caused this.


ALF says he was present when the action went and saw this event. That is good enough for me.

The photo caps tires a moment in time. I do not read anything into the shooter’s head position given the photo is capturing a reaction to an explosion.

This is very sad and disconcerting.

The good news is no one is dead or permanently disabled.

Hi LHeym500,
Correct, the recall notice referenced blown barrels. Also agree re the shooter's very good fortune this disaster was not worse than it easily could have been. We are thankful for that.
As stated I am having a hard time trying to work out what might have happened. My comments were just an attempt to focus on a possibility based on the evidence given here, including the video clip. It's not barrel rupture. Alf states the barrel was pristine. A confusing thing is the bolt shear. Yet the fired case ( supposedly ) has not blown and although the case shoulder collapsed it has no powder stain...
Then the state of the magazine box and bottom metal kind of shows the possibility of a magazine blowup that disintegrated the stock. This is the possibility I raised yet I know, logically, one would assume an explosion must have occurred in the chamber. Some things don't correlate, causing my confusion. The video frame is 1/4 second and captures the moment of explosion. In such a short time span I would not think it would have caught the shooter's reaction. However as I stated earlier I could be wrong about this and other assumptions. But I would really like to know what happened and hope we get to the bottom of it.

I follow. You and I were and are cool.

I am not a neurologist. I do think it is probably the automatic, response to this explosion is caught in the photo.

I do not think we can make any judgment as to the event or authenticity of the photo based on shooter’s head position as posted by someone else.

I gave no idea how this happened. I only postulate that the action blew. I do lot see it failing like this simply under stress. What was the source of the explosion given the condition of the brass I cannot say.

I hope you do get resolution on what happened and the shooter heals well.
I've only seen one rifle blow up, thank goodness! I was working the line as a Range Officer several years ago while one of the regulars was shooting his reloaded 7mm08 in a Savage stainless steel rifle. I was looking directly at him from a distance of about 30 feet when it abruptly disassembled. Thankfully, he only received minor wounds.
It is interesting to me that the structure of the steel looked very similar to the photo above of the trigger area. Savage requested the rifle be sent to them for investigation and so it was. There was never an explanation on what could have happened only a Yep, it blew up but, Savage gave him another rifle of his choice.