I have a .375 CZ 550. Is there anything that a .338 win mag will do that this rifle won't? If I were to take it on a hunt (elk, moose, mule deer, etc.) and came across a long shot (400-500 yards) and could make a "rested" shot, which caliber would be better? Is the .375 a flat enough shooting caliber to do the job?

If I have the .375, is there any reason to get a .338?

Thanks,
Dave

The 338 is better for that application.

Well, they'll both put like-SD bullets out at about 30-06 velocities (~.280 at ~ 2800 fps), so if you can find a bullet you like with a good BC, then stick with the H&H. The 338 would only make a smaller hole.
That said, there's a much better selection of 338 bullets with high-ish BC's, so you could stand to gain a bit in trajectory, terminal velocity.

The 270g Barnes X has a higher BC (.503) than the 225g X (.482), so assuming they're correct, the H&H will arrive about as high and with about 500 ft lb more energy. 450 ft lb more at 500, and still well over 2000 ft lb. Sound good?

IMHO neither is the rifle for the situation you descrided. Hunt and get closer. I'd keep the shots to 300 yards or closer with either teh 338 or 375.

Unfortunately, the 270 X bullet hasn't a prayer of having a BC anywhere close to .503. Barnes is telling tall tales again.... There are numerous 338 bullets that really do have a decent BC.

Iron Buck is right on. When shooting at game, 300 yards is a long shot in my book. Nobody has to take a 500 yard shot at an unwounded animal.

The likelyhood of still having enough velocity to expand heavy jacketed bullets out ot those two cartridges is slim. As tough as elk are I can't ever, with any cartridge suggest that taking a 500 yard shot is a good idea.

I agree with Iron Buck and Thunder Child. I thought this was called hunting. I can hardly see a deer or anything else at 500 yards. You will feel worse if you wound a animal at that distance than to have the dignity to pass on that shot and wait till you can make sure you kill the animal outright, and not lose a good trophy bull. LLB

Dave, serious questions here.

1) Do you know just how far 500 yards are?

2) Do you know how small an elk looks at that distance?

3) How many times have you shot at 500 + yards this year?

4) How many of those times have you placed your first shot within 10" of point of aim?

I shoot paper at 200, 300, and 600 yards at least twice month every month (and I'm pretty damn good at it) and I won't take a shot at an unwounded animal much past 300 yards.

Hey guys a thought here would be to answer his question if you have some experience with such stuff ---if not spare him the ethics lessons......

This is a just a thought and suggestion.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Dave, it you load a good 270 gr. bullet (like Swift A-Frame) in the .375 H&H to over 2700 fps., you'll have a rifle with approximately the trajectory of the .30-06 firing 180s. That's also about the trajectory of the .338 Win. Mag. with 250s. I sight my rifles in any of these three chamberings for a 200 yard zero, which of course is good for 90% of all hunting situations.

With 210 or 225 gr. Noslers, the trajectory is a little flatter with the .338 Win. Mag., and most .338s are also lighter to carry than most .375s. All things considered, I favor the .338 Win. Mag. as an elk cartridge over the .375 H&H.

I have a 2.5-8X Leupold on my .338 Win. with an extra 400 yd. stadia wire from Premier Reticles that's calculated around my 250 gr. Nosler load at just over 2700 fps. The main Duplex reticle is zeroed for 200 yds. This is a great, simple, foolproof, and highly effective system that works perfectly, and the one extra wire doesn't clutter up anything. But it's there if you need it for the occasional long shot.

AD

Here's what you need:
M224 60mm Lightweight Mortar

Ditto what eldeguello said. Stalking is not that difficult and you can surely close the gap to two or three hundred yards. I've hunted elk since I was twelve, I'm fourty seven and I've killed over fourty elk. The longest shot I've taken was 200 yards more or less, on a cow that my sister had already hit once. There's no need to shoot 500 yards at live game.

In this month's handloader, Barsness makes a good point in the article about the 375. He points out that some flat shooting 300's will drop less at 400 than the 375 (or the 338), but he adds "But guess what? You still have to know the distance and the trajectory". In other words, at that distance, comparing cartridge to cartridge, all that matters is terminal ballistics (ie bullet construction,energy and how big a hole you will put etc). That super flat trajectory is no longer providing any real benefit once you get outside the point blank range. You will always need to know how far and how much to hold over. Whether you have to hold over a foot or 3 feet does not really matter.

As for the skill and shooting distance...well I will only say that I have shot at targets and rocks out to 600 yards in the field and I would never try it on game. At best, you'll probably miss, at worse you will wound. And by the time you cover all that ground, good luck in finding your quarry even if it drops at the shot. Things look mighty different when you have to cross a few canyons and find one specific spot that you saw over a quarter mile away. But that's me, and theoretical discussions are always fun.

Woodnbow-your statement about not needing to shoot at over 200-300 may work where you hunt. However, there is a lot of different country to hunt out there. A lot of different conditions, and lots of different amounts of hunting pressure.

What works for your may not work for others.

My last elk was taken at 488-I'd made a good nest-when the bull came out of the timber I lasered it and shot. It took one step and fell over. Without being prepared to shoot at distance I would of gone home without (note I would not of taken the shot had I not been prepared-this is about knowing our limitations-we will run out of our limits long b4 most rounds do). I was prepared I was ready I took the shot. It all worked.

As Bobby Knight would say "The will to win is grossly overated. The will to prepare is far more important".

Why oh why is it that every time so one asks a simple question like this one-that some have to start going into the ethics and the why's he should not be doing it instead of just answering the darn question. To me, if you have spent the time behind the butt of those kinds of rifles and at those kinds of ranges, then I feel you are qualified to respond. Really it is is a simple question why not just give it a simple answer?

Take a look at Allen's response this makes total sense to me.

Just my thought here gang but how's about we be supportive instead of being judgemental?

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

ps for what it is worth either round will work just fine. I know I've tried it and done it. For a practiced and prepared shooter 500 yards on an elk is a chip shot. IMO

[ 12-08-2003, 21:51: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

I don't think DaveT asked this to start a flame war or an endless series of rebukes. I think this was one of those theoretical sort of things; Will it work?

I agree that 500 yds is too far. One should get closer,etc,etc.

I think that at 400-500 yds the velocity would be so degraded that unless you hit ribs for a lung shot you could have a problem. NOT stating the bullet would bounce off , but I wouldn't want to try a shoulder shot, requiring penetration of tough muscle/bone, at that range.

I've shot some pretty decent groups at 300 and 400 yds with my .375 H&H but have never shot at a game animal past 350 yds. I can think of three raghorn bulls taken with Sierra 300's and all were in the 300-350 range. ALL of them died post haste, but I did revover ALL of the bullets as none exited. All were heart/lung shots with impact in the ribs, not the shoulder area. Partitions or X bullets may have made an exit,who knows?

My secondary concern would be just what either the .338 or .375 had LEFT at 500 yds. My primary concern especially over 400 yds would be hitting it.
Anyone taken game with either at extreme ranges??

FN in MT

Frank you are absolutely right with your first statement, I feel it was an honest question also. People just love to give lessons each and every time somone asks something like this.

And yeah we've tried em both and used them both at long range. Personally my favorite is the 340 Wby.

As for shoulder shots-personally this is not my thing unless conditions/situation dictate it. I much prefer to pull in behind the front.

As to this years shot I had the point of the shoulder for a shot-that was my shot and I felt it would be my only shot. I also felt comfy with the load I was using, the bullet went in on the point (of the shoulder) went thru the body and exited thru the short ribs (what I call the end of the rib area). The elk took one step and went down! The load a 130 TS out of my Mauser 270 starting at 3200 fps. Yep the big 33's and the 375's will go thru the shoulder at these kinds of ranges (personally I feel that range is your friend when it comes to penetrating shoulders) and I do prefger to use the harder bullets.. I also know that there are a lot of smaller rounds out there that will do the same thing.

Frank on a side note did many big bulls come off the Dearborn this year?

ChadT--point blank distance stuff has never meant a thing to me-and setting up a rifle to shoot at long range is not rocket science.(I.E. with a Leupold with Premier reticle dots in it)

I use a Leica-I feel that anyone who shoots at much over 250 should always use one-I practice a lot at long range-I only shoot when it all looks and feels right for a OSOK (one shot one kill). I do not shoot unless it is all just right. But I follow this discipline at all ranges be it one hundred or 600.

Granted this type of shooting isn't for all-you must have the discpline to practice-you must have the proper equipment- and you must have the discipline to know when and when not to shoot.

As for finding game after shooting it along range this has never been an issue to me-just like shooting at closer ranges one must mark the spot well-and it also helps to leave a spotter to guide you to the game if this is possible.

Just my thoughts......

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

To the original poster of the question I do apologize for this getting off subject-it pretty much always does when someone asks about shooting at long range!

[ 12-08-2003, 23:32: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

Well Mark you may consider 500 yards a "chip shot" but for every rifleman who can make that shot 10 for 10 there are a thousand who'd be lucky to hit that elk ANYWHERE much less in the boiler room. That's the problem. And yer kidding yourself if you think I haven't passed on long range shots. I'm surrounded by long range shooting opportunities and I still stalk and kill elk every year at close range. Must be something in the water.

Woodnbow-I absolutely agree with you about most not many being able to make the shot! I do not disagree with you one bit, personally I feel it all comes down to knowing your limitations. And having the proper gear.

I happen to do a lot of shooting at range and have several friend that do as well. I/we stay within my/our limitations and I feel that is what we need to do.

Now take running shots-this is not my thing-I am terrible at them-no doubt about it! I do not take them unless the animal already has a hole in it.

I'd forgo a running shot, and would gladly take the 500 yard shot. I know the one I may make and I know the other when it is set up right I would make! Either way I want the odds on my side!

I'd be willing to bet though that most would take a running shot at say half the yards we are talking about-but would never condone the taking of a shot at the longer. What do you think? I feel they would do it without even batting an eye.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

I use the 338 Win for most of hunting here in Alaska, I suggest the 250 Sierra BT and do not shoot at game at these extreme ranges unless you practice. Alot of game has been lost due to poor bullet placement because of long range shooting. I hunted in CO after Elk, after seeing them on another ridge is hard to watch.

Even up here in Alaska on moose and bear I limit my shots where I know when I pull the trigger I have game. In my rifle with the Sierra's 400 yards is MAX, with most my shots under 150. The Sierra BT is the flattest shooting 250gr bullet I have found and use it for 90% of all my game.

Personally Alaska--I'd suggest that long range is not the culprit-it probably doesn't help if a person is not prepared.

What does wound game IMO is people shooting out of there ability zone. I define ability zone as the range in which you can place a bullet where you want it-not just hit an animal. Make sense?

Just my thoughts...

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

[ 12-08-2003, 22:54: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

I've shot one game animal over 400 yards. It was a whitetail deer. We had a range finder and it was 458 yards, with a 257 Weatherby Mag even with that flat shooting round it was a "iffy" shot. If I were gong to shoot that far I'd use a 338 stroked with 250's, and practice a bunch.

Ed

My advice to those not practiced in long range shooting is to get or borrow a good laser rangefinder and take your rifle to an area where you can take long shots. In less than one box of ammo you will learn that if you need the rangefinder for a particular object, its too damn far to shoot!
Edited to add: Until you practice at those ranges enough to feel totally comfortable. Otherwise, its just like Iraqi triple A: lots a lead in the air for no good purpose.

[ 12-09-2003, 02:07: Message edited by: tiggertate ]

Mark,

Private message sent ref your question. Reply via e mail if you wish.

FN in MT

I shot my bull this year at 513yrds. one shot with my 300WBY 200gr partition at 3128fps at 513yrds it has 2100ft-lbs of energy at that range. behind the front shoulder. the gun is sited dead on at 500yrds. why because I have two of them. one sited one inch at 100yrds the other at 500yrds. I live on a 600 acrer ranch and as I look out my front window I see a bull right now at 568yrds. I don't shoot that far unless the conditions are just right no wind and the bull or deer show me a good lung shot.

Jon A, that's exactly why I don't shoot much past 350yds. Assuming you have a very good rest, it's really difficult to not only dope the wind but getting a good hold is just as bad. I shoot pretty well from a bench, but I know my field limitations & I haven't figured out how to carry the bench & sandbags w/ me up the mountain!

I suspect we agree more than we disagree Mark. I've seen too many "hunters" show up, set up with a brand new rifle and proceed to scatter bullet holes all over the paper at 50 yards. One fella at the range told me "Well, elk have a big kill zone."
This year I killed two cows, the first with my longbow at seventeen paces. The second with my Savage .308 three days later. My son killed his bull with his great grandfathers M70 .257 Roberts the same morning. Cody had to reach out into a meadow for his bull, we paced it off at 134 long steps. I tried to teach the lad not to take those long shots but he's a grown man now and sometimes just doesn't listen to the old man.
I hope your seasons are always successful, Regards,
Steve

Thanks, guys for all the advice. Lot's of good advice. Let me ask the question again and maybe a little differently...

At 400-500 yards, will the .338 win mag have a flatter trajectory than the .375 H&H? How much velocity and energy does the .338 have at that distance compared to the .375?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

No offense intended, Dave, I began by simply trying to answer the question when everybody else wanted to preach to you. Since it's pretty obvious from your posts you don't have much experience shooting at long range, now it's my turn to "preach."

First, you should have already learned from this thread that it doesn't matter if one round shoots slightly flatter than the other. At 500 yds, neither of them shoot flat enough for you to take a shot unless you have lasered the range to within a yard and know exactly how much to compensate for drop because you have practiced at this range during the offseason.

Retained velocity and energy questions are rather trivial unless you're talking about specific bullets with each round. While the 338 has the theoretical advantage here, a poor bullet choice (low BC) could easily swing the advantage to the 375 with a good bullet choice.

So if you want to be able to take an elk out to 500 yds, here is my new advice for you:

Take the money you would spend on a new rifle and buy the best rangefinder you can afford. The most accurate rifle in the world is pretty much worthless without one beyond 400 yds.

Buy four boxes of 265 AccuBonds. Work up a load that shoots less than 1 MOA at 100 yds. If it won't, send your rifle to a gunsmith and have some accuracy work done on it.

Now, find a place you can shoot to at least 500 yards, preferably farther. Use a bench to shoot groups and document drop at 300, 350, 400, 450 and 500 yds. Keep very accurate records. Then, practice from whatever position you think you might try a 500 yd shot on an elk. Don't stop until every one of those bullets has gone downrange.

Now, you will have some idea what you're doing. By this time, you may have decided this is much too hard. That this LR stuff is for crazy people. If so, that's great--great that you discovered this while practicing at the range instead of in the field on a real animal. If this is the case, well, now you know.

Or, you might be doing pretty well. You might be making consistant hits at 500 from prone over your backpack, bipod or whatever. You may be "hooked." If this is the case, great! Buy 200 more bullets, load them up and fine-tune your skills. I guarantee you, if you do this you will be infinitely more effective than somebody with the most accurate, most deadly LR magnum who hasn't put in this practice that you have.

You see, that's the hard part of shooting at LR--the preparation, the practice. Too many people are looking for the "quick fix." They'd rather lay down a credit card for a new rifle than practice their shooting, which would give them a bigger improvement than the most accurate rifle money can buy. They'd rather ask "how much to hold over at 500 yds" on a message board than pick up a few reloading manuals and study their ballistics sections or download (many of which are free) some ballistics software and play with it until they have some sort of understanding of how exterior ballistics works.

While I still say the 338 is a better choice for this application, you already have a 375 which I assume you like. If you buy a 338 you'd still need to do all of this same stuff anyway.

I was hoping for a response more like Jon A's second post. Far too many folks will just jump out there and say "Oh yeah, the 348 Thunderwhomper is what you need! Shoots flat to 800 yards and still has the same retained energy a thirty thirty does at the muzzle! You'll never have another excuse for missing the monster bull of a lifetime!"
I won't tell people how far they should shoot, I will always suggest that closer is better and that anyone not wheelchair bound or morbidly obese can get closer than 500 yards. That being said, if you absolutely must shoot at extreme ranges then put in your range time cause it'll take thousands of rounds downrange before the "average" rifle hunter is ready to take the 500 yard chip shot.
If that sounds like preaching, then just call me Reverend, because the animals lives we take afield are not cheap and deserve our very best efforts. Hunting is a sacred rite Gentlemen not a crap shoot.
Woodnbow