I just finished reading an article by Chuck Hawks concerning the optimum .30 caliber cartridge. He was discussing "at what point is the balance between killing power, trajectory, and recoil of a .30 caliber rifle cartridge optimized?" He concluded that the .30-06 was the optimum .30 caliber rifle cartridge. You can read his article at: http://www.chuckhawks.com/opti..._rifle_cartridge.htm

However, using his own criteria "balance between killing power, trajectory, and recoil" I would have thought the .308 to be the optimum. For the purpose of this poll I'm adding one more item to consider: accuracy.

I'm not asking what your favorite .30 caliber rifle cartridge is, but what do you believe the optimum .30 caliber cartridge is. I prefer the .30-06 over the .308, however, using the outlined criteria, I believe the .308 to be the optimum.

NOTE: I'm not adding any of the Metric calibers that might be considered .30 caliber cartridges to the answers list.

Question:
What do you believe to be the optimum .30 caliber cartridge? That is, which one has the best balance between killing power, trajectory, recoil and accuracy?

Choices:
.30 Carbine
.30-30 Winchester
.300 Savage
.308 Winchester
.300 Remington S.A.U.M.
.30-06 Springfield
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Winchester Shot Magnum
.300 Wby Mag
.300 Remington Ultra Magnum
.300 H&H Magnum
.30-40 Krag
.30-378 Wby Mag
.308 Norma Magnum
.308 Marlin Express

Question:
What do you believe to be the second most optimum .30 caliber cartridge? That is, which one has the second best balance between killing power, trajectory, recoil and accuracy?

Choices:
.30 Carbine
.30-30 Winchester
.300 Savage
.308 Winchester
.300 Remington S.A.U.M.
.30-06 Springfield
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Winchester Shot Magnum
.300 Wby Mag
.300 Remington Ultra Magnum
.300 H&H Magnum
.30-40 Krag
.30-378 Wby Mag
.308 Norma Magnum
.308 Marlin Express

 

For obvious reasons of versatility and a proven track record, I chose the 30-06 as #1.

For #2 I would have to choose the 300 H&H as the second most optimum. Although I do not own a 300 H&H, (I do plan on getting one) I have talked to several older, very knowledgable gentleman, at length, who tell me that the H&H can do everything the '06 can do and quite a bit more. It has been written about and said the the 300H&H can be loaded up to match the Win Mag. or down to match the 308 extremely well. This, like it's parent cartridge, the 375 H&H, is due to it's long tapered case. I have been told it really shines with the heavier bullets in the 200 to 220 grain area but also does very well with 150 grain bullets. This is assuming the proper propellant is used.

This kind of mental masturbation may appeal to some, but it just gives me a headache. The poll is no different that asking "What is the best rifle chartridge" or "What is the best bolt action rifle? - because almost all you will get are opinions based on personal belief, not on facts. Do you really think that any result will be in any way definitive, or will help you choose? What if the .30 Army wins...does that really mean anything substantial? Why does Chuck Hawks do this unless to "sell" his stuff?

But if everyone finds it fun then I'll go back down my hole....


.

The poll is skewed by too many factors to be anything other that basic opinion. The shooters tollerence for recoil. Killing power is skewed by typical distance a hunter shoots and energy delivered at the point of impact. Trajectory is skewed by bullet weight used, ballistic cooeficient, type of bullet used, wind at the time of the shot etc. I just don't see what is to gain by this type of generalization?

I vote #1 as the -06 but my #2 vote because of the short action is the WSM

quote:

all you will get are opinions based on personal belief, not on facts.

True, but opinions are all we have. Factually, there is so little difference in most of them as to be irrelivant.

quote:

"at what point is the balance between killing power, trajectory, and recoil of a .30 caliber rifle cartridge optimized?" He concluded that the .30-06 was the optimum .30 caliber rifle cartridge.

I'm no Hawks fan but can't find room for debate in this statement!

I will play that is what discussion forums are for.
I say #1 30-06 because most can take the recoil of the 30-06 and it does so well with so many bullet weights.

#2 I say .308 because other than heavy bullets it stands right there with the 30-06.

Now personally I love my .300 Win. Mag but I am looking at recoil levels most can handle without a brake. Accuracy, Versatility, and off the shelf ammo selection.

Lets face it if you can't kill it with a .308 or 30-06 move up to .338 or something over .30 caliber.

The 300 Win mag has a bit more reach and performs better with the heavier bullets without much extra recoil over the 30/06 but is still good up against the 300 RUM which has a lot more recoil. The 30/06 would be my second choice. I have the 308 (2), 30/06, 300 Win mag and the 300 RUM so I can pick/choose based on what the need is.

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
This kind of mental masturbation may appeal to some, but it just gives me a headache. The poll is no different that asking "What is the best rifle chartridge" or "What is the best bolt action rifle? - because almost all you will get are opinions based on personal belief, not on facts. Do you really think that any result will be in any way definitive, or will help you choose? What if the .30 Army wins...does that really mean anything substantial? Why does Chuck Hawks do this unless to "sell" his stuff?

But if everyone finds it fun then I'll go back down my hole....


.

those that do will offer an opinion. Those that don't, won't.

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
The 300 Win mag has a bit more reach and performs better with the heavier bullets without much extra recoil over the 30/06 but is still good up against the 300 RUM which has a lot more recoil. The 30/06 would be my second choice. I have the 308 (2), 30/06, 300 Win mag and the 300 RUM so I can pick/choose based on what the need is.

For me I can take max loads in my 760, 30-06 with 180 grain bullets but even moderate loads in my 300 mag is just to much. Could be my shooting shoulder is bad and I suffer lots of pain from it though.

300 Win Mag...

Don't understand the recoil problem with this caliber. Maybe its because after years of sitting in a duck blind shooting 3" and 3 1/2" shells, I just don't think the Winnie really kicks that much.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
300 Win Mag...

Don't understand the recoil problem with this caliber.

I don't understand it either.

And the most beautiful girl in the pagent is...

Ms. Norma's .308

The sweetheart, all american girl next door is the .30-06

The smokin' hot blonde bombshell you wouldn't introduce to Mom is the .300 Win Mag.

The the hottie red head who doesn't get the attention she deserves is the .308 Win.

The .300 H & H is Betty White; a beauty when she first came on the scene, and no less a beauty today.

That's probably where my little analogy should end!

friar

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
This kind of mental masturbation may appeal to some, but it just gives me a headache.

Ditto

Then why even open the thread?? Much less take up space with your post?


Threads like this are intended to gain knowledge (of a sort) and let folks explain exactly why they think their crow is the blackest. It's interesting that in most post like this, even considering the diverse folks making judgements, that the outcome is pretty consistant with reality.

I'm actually surprised by the popularity of the 300 H&H. I always thought most considered it an almost obsolete cartridge.

I have a pre-64 in 300 H&H and I'd like to find a load that would compliment my 3006 (which I always feed 180 gr Corlock loads from Remington). Suppose I could dial them down to 165's and develope a 200 gr load for the 300. Thoughts?

quote:

Suppose I could dial them down to 165's and develope a 200 gr load for the 300. Thoughts?

I shoot almost exclusively 200 grain bullets in my .300 H&H......the way I see it is that the magnum case don't do much for me in increased range but it does help with shooting a heavier bullet for the truly big game.

It sure did well on Gemsbok and Kudu!

Undoubtably, the 30-06 is the most popular .30 cal, probably the most versitile too. Getting into the magnums, the .308 Norma seems to have it all over the others from the case effeciency standpoint.

I went with 30-30 & 300 savage, due to the max range for shots on deer where I hunt are about 100 yards & both of those cartriges do very well at that range without wasting too much powder.

Some people think a movie is the greatest artistic work ever and others think the same movie is horrible. Some love Fords and others love Chevys. All people don't like or dislike the same things. Some like certain gun forum posts and others don't. I knew when I posted the poll that some wouldn't like it, but the whole purpose of a forum is to share insights and OPINIONS. (For that matter, I'm pretty sure no one has ever created a poll that everyone cared for.) There are a lot of posts on the Accurate Reloading Forums that I'm not interested in or polls I'm not crazy about--I just simply don't read them or don't respond to them. It is not my habit to criticize the originator of the post. I know that variety is the spice of life and that people are different. Some feel the need to criticize those polls and posts they don't care for, and that is their right. Others are more benevolent and simply don't respond.

I voted the 30-06 for number 1 and the 308 number 2.
That said the 300H&H will do all that they will do and it just looks good doing it.
Also I think it depends on what game you are going after.

Recoil is purely personal. I hate the recoil in my Rem 788 308, but the 300 WBY in an accumark is comfortable. That leaves you with trajectory and KP. 1. 300 Roy, 2. 300wsm.

I put the 308 at #1 and the 30-06 at #2 as with MODERN powders in the middle range bullet weights the 308 does all that the 30-06 can do but in a shorter package of cartridge case and rifle action.

Probably, with modern powders, the "optimum" would be a 7.62mmx57 (an necked down 8x57 Mauser) as it discards 6mm of useless case length in exchange for seating the bullet further out to optimise usuable powder capacity.

Most optimum for which use specifically?

For my day to day use, probably the .30-BR or the .30 PPC.

For other uses, I'd select the .308, or the .30-06, or the .300 Weatherby, depending on specifically for which purpose I was about to use it.

A wise old, but long deceased gunsmith once told me to never get in a pissing match as this, because as he said "there is no way to prove it!"

.30-06!

.308 and 30-06...the order matters not.

Anything that can well be done with a 30 cal, can be done with these two by a decent rifleman. And they manage to do it with so little fuss!

If you cannot accomplish your 30 caliber task with either of these two, you need more practice!

My $0.02 of course!


Tim

I would say .308 Norma (the cartridge Winchester wished they had introduced first!)
I love the '06 but I don't think .308 calibre is the best use of that case.

Id like to see the original 30 Newton make a comeback.


Cal30

I chose the 30-06 for my number one choice. I was the 2% that said the .308 Norma Mag. I like it because of its longer neck, but I would also choose the .300 Win Mag.

quote:

And the most beautiful girl in the pagent is...

Ms. Norma's .308

The sweetheart, all american girl next door is the .30-06

The smokin' hot blonde bombshell you wouldn't introduce to Mom is the .300 Win Mag.

The the hottie red head who doesn't get the attention she deserves is the .308 Win.

The .300 H & H is Betty White; a beauty when she first came on the scene, and no less a beauty today.

That's probably where my little analogy should end!

friar

sin boldly; believe more boldly still

Friar, very well said! However I was disappointed that you didn't mention which one of the lineup was comparable to a porn star LOL

quote:

I was disappointed that you didn't mention which one of the lineup was comparable to a porn star

That would be the .30-30.....the Linda Lovelace of them all!

quote:

I shoot almost exclusively 200 grain bullets in my .300 H&H......the way I see it is that the magnum case don't do much for me in increased range but it does help with shooting a heavier bullet for the truly big game.

It sure did well on Gemsbok and Kudu!

Vapo,

This is great.

You extol the virtue of sectional density here, and rightly so.
Going up from 180 grains to 200 grains is all about dipping into SD.
A little bit more mass behind the frontal area does the trick.
I do the same in my 300 H&H

Here is a snippet from Chuck Hawks: .... "For maximum penetration on CXP4 game, which is within the capability of the Magnum .338's where legal, a 250 grain bullet (SD .313) is appropriate. This bullet does not shoot as flat as the more popular 225 grain projectiles and would be a poor choice if CXP2 game is also on the menu, but it handily exceeds the highly respected 300 grain, .375 caliber bullet (SD .305) in both sectional density and ballistic coefficient, making .338 the best long range caliber of any of the medium bores."

Warrior

When we are talking about sectional density, what matters most is the sectional density of the expanded bullet. How much did it open and how much does it weigh? Sectional density of an unfired bullet means little unless it's a solid because you have to know how the bullet reacts when hitting game.

This is the reason Barnes have such a good reputation. They will out penetrate larger lead bullets because they never over expand and retain 100% of their weight. If a 165 gr Barnes mushrooms to .59 and weighs 165 after expansion, theoretically it will out penetrate a 200 gr bullets that expands to .65 and retains 140 grs of weight. The sectional density of the expanded bullet is better with the Barnes.

But to really understand the impact of sectional density........wait.....this isn't the sectional density thread

The most optimum 30 caliber cartridge is the 30-06. You can shoot bullets from 130 grains to 220 grains with a 22" barrel and it won't kick the hell out of you.

scottfromdallas,

We are still in agreement .... 100%.
Just one thing, to give meaning to SD we must always use the same bullet type.
Any comparison between a Mono-metal and a Soft is non sensical ito SD discussions.
It is like cotton balls vs tungsten balls.

Warrior

I picked .30-06 #1 and .300 Win Mag #2. I love the .308, but I didn't pick it because it can't handle the entire spectrum of .30 cal bullet weights. When you add the "killing power" factor in, the ability to shoot 200 and 220 grain bullets at decent velocity gives rounds with a bigger case capacity an edge over the .308.