I think if I were to come across an M721 in .300 H&H, I'd run straight home and make a call for an Ackley Improved reamer to meet me at the house. (I am not a fan of the extended throat of the Weatherby)
Since I have not bumped into the aforementioned, I'll prolly just keep plugging away with my WinMag with a long-throat. It allows me to seat a Sierra 180gr spitzer with the base even with the bottom of the neck. The velocity is in the 3150-3200fps range and the accuracy with just about any 180gr hunting bullet to be under 1moa for three shots, from it's 24" barrel. The scope is a Weaver KV with 2" Lee dot as I like nostalgia, too.
If I were to go build another .300 Mag, it would prolly be a .308 Norma (or maybe a .300 Ackley short Magnum) on a Springfield '03 action, and a custom stock.
Yes, I voted for "other Magnum".
Have fun,
Gene

If there are really any among you who thinks the 300 H&H is currently more popular than the 300 Win, allow me to help you out: It is NOT, not even close. Period, end of story.
The 300 H&H might be more popular among the very small fraction of hunter who post on AR since we're a weird lot.
I like a 300 H&H and have used one for years. It's just a bit more powerful than the '06 and almost as good as the 300 Win so it must be pretty good.
Zeke

I really don't like the recoil of 300 magnums. I can get what I hunt with a 7mm mag that kicks less.

I have a 300 H&H and recently got a custom in 300 Win M. for a good price. I shot it again today and it did very well at 100 yds with 3 in an inch. Two days ago it put the first right on at 100 yds and they touched!

There is so much snow here that nobody has got to 200 yds yet this winter.

Zeke,
Your are absolutely right the 300 win. outsells the 300 H&H for a number of reasons but that is of little consequences.

Let's take a look at the handloading balistics on the 300 Win. and 300 H&H. I have both at my disposal and have loaded both for many years..

I have found the short neck to the 300 Win, creates a problem with 200 gr. and heavier bullets in that those long bullets interfere with powder space in the 300 Win. not so in the long necked 300 H&H..and for that reason alone I can send a 200 gr. Nosler patition out the barrel of my 300 H&H at 3050 FPS in my Win mod 70 pre 64 with a big dose of H4831 and at max but very reasonable pressure..

The best my 300 Win. or my boys 300 win, that I built for him, will do is 2877 FPS and 2864 FPS respectively and I have done this test many times and the difference multiplys as the bullets get bigger such as the 220 and 250 gr. .308 bullets wherein the 300 H&H comes within rock toss'en distance of a 300 Wby..

Someone usually jumps in on this fact with quotes various figures from reloading manuals, but most handloading books will show at least one load with the 300 H&H with a 180 at 3000 or a 200 at 2900 and I have listed them before on AR and most of those quotes were with 24 inch barrels and my guns listed all have 26 inch tubes and LW barrels.

So, there is a difference, is it great? not particularly as far as the animal is concerned or the ability to hold a rifle in the field steady enough to take advantage of the trajectory, but its there enough for campfire conversation!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Can't be forgotten that the 300 H$H is also a very pleasant cartridge to shoot. In the custom market...well..I recently had to purchase another new 300 H&H reamer, while my 300 Win Mag hasn't seen, the light of day for years. 308 Norma, 300 RUM..used them both once. 300 Wby..maybe three times

That says it all!!.

People start out with the easy pickings and ends up taking the final mature choice.

I'm working on a load for mine with NBT 165 gr. The rifle is a Pre 64 M70. Wyoming Speed Goats here I come

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Can't be forgotten that the 300 H$H is also a very pleasant cartridge to shoot. In the custom market...well..I recently had to purchase another new 300 H&H reamer, while my 300 Win Mag hasn't seen, the light of day for years. 308 Norma, 300 RUM..used them both once. 300 Wby..maybe three times

That says it all!!.

Its says what some people more often choose if spending lots of money on walnut and blue steel
many of which will spend much of their life as safe queens.

Talk to Rifles Inc. who builds custom rifles for people who hunt much more than they look at their rifles,
and see what tops the list of .300magnums built out of that shop.
Over the yrs I've seen numerous of such in .300win,.300WBY,300RUM,...however never a .300H&H.
(not to say some don't exist)

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Can't be forgotten that the 300 H$H is also a very pleasant cartridge to shoot. In the custom market...well..I recently had to purchase another new 300 H&H reamer, while my 300 Win Mag hasn't seen, the light of day for years. 308 Norma, 300 RUM..used them both once. 300 Wby..maybe three times

That says it all!!.

Its says what some people more often choose if spending lots of money on walnut and blue steel
many of which will spend much of their life as safe queens.

Talk to Rifles Inc. who builds custom rifles for people who hunt much more than they look at their rifles,
and see what tops the list of .300magnums built out of that shop.
Over the yrs I've seen numerous of such in .300win,.300WBY,300RUM,...however never a .300H&H.
(not to say some don't exist)

All that tells me is that the 300 Wm Ultra Mag and so on get more press than the tried and true 300 H&H. It seems to me people coming up have forgotten the classics such as the H&H the 257 Roberts 7X57 just to name a few in hopes that the newest super magnum will be the greatest thing on the range and in the field.

Not everybody is into classic cartridges, there are just much more people focused on the hunting itself without such fusing,
..they mostly don't give a crAp that their elk died from a bullet launched from .300win rather than the .300H&H....nor should they.
\..as for the 300WBY, that is an iconic round all in itself!

and considering Win never made a true magnum length P64 M70, the intro of the shorter .300win made logical sense.

possibly, but the old Winchester sure did make a lot of OM 70's in those two calibers. And a lot of money doing so.

I looked at an awful lot of Pre-64's over the years at gun shows/shops, and the old 30 Super brings a large premium over 300 Win Mags.

Esthetics play a major role for about a third of the posters here on AR, they seem to have a lot more money (and the willingness to spend it) for customs than the stainless and synthetic folks.

You buy from or have built a rifle by the likes of Duane Wiebe or James Kobe, and the fine walnut and rust blued steel creations that come out of their shops.

No comparison to the epoxy bedded stuff.

It also strikes me as an interesting aside that the people who have the fine custom rifles built don't waste much time commenting on those plastic things. Nor do their gun smiths offer a catalog of "standard models"; limited to choice of colors.

There's a lot of quality time and enjoyment to be had picking out T-H-E walnut blank somewhere like Walnut Grove Gunstocks, and deciding on OM 70 vs Commercial or military 98 action to base a rifle on. Ebony tip or grip cap? Decide early on what you want to hunt with it, then choose a cartridge, barrel contour and length, and how much eye candy like those fine grip cap traps and extended magazines and sights. Maybe even some engraving.

I do not think I have ever seen a stainless/synthetic with engraving. It would just be a "waste" or time and money to those folks who favor such.



Sitting here, I can look around the room and see a nice SN:20,xxx OM 70 in 450/375 RUM (aka 460 G&A), a VZ-24 in 404 Jefferys, a really well done engraved pre-WWII in 257 Roberts with full coverage engraving, with side release floor plate latch and Greener Safety. Next to a circa-1094-06 Gundermann of Dusseldorf O/U 16 gauge over 8mmx72R with full coverage engraving and anmals and a set trigger for the rifle barrel.

There's a Commercial Mauser barreled action leaned up against a bookcase (also made of walnut) with DST's, an engraved floor plate and side lever floor plate release I favor so much, and cannot purchase these days with a full octagon barrel in 257 Robert. About three years ago I sorted thru a hundred or so walnut blanks to find just the right one. Crescent butt plate from Duane Wiebe, and the early Mauser stalking rifle type stock with the side panels.

DPCD offered a military contoured/stepped barrel about a year ago in 9,3mm. A friend and I sent him sporterized military 98 actions and had him fit, chamber, and headspace them in 9,3x62mm. I'm waiting on wood from a supplier to be 95% inlet so I can send it to my stock maker.

My Elmer Keith Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express in 45-90 that Shiloh made for him with serial number EK100 is leaned against another wall. I put an MVA 6X traditional FL scope on it last year, after a friend restocked it reflect the eight inches or so different in our heights.

There's another single shot rifle in process, with the full tapered octagon McGowan barrel with FL rib that I waited 14 months for, and a set of stock blanks that I bought ten years or so ago for about $500. I saved money for a year, and waited another 18 months for Steve Earle to fill my order for a Wesson #1 Long Range Express Rifle. I deviated a bit from Wesson tradition choosing a caliber, just because I wanted a 450-400 Nitro Express 3 1/4". In a strong single shot action it will handle loads that run right alongside the 416 Rigby, with the same bullet weights, albeit .006" smaller diameter. I doubt anything I will hunt with it in Africa will know the difference, or care. But, it will be all of my choices and the fun of acquiring the components and having a couple gunsmiths assemble it and stock it.

I do not hear members even here, talk like this about the new style of rifle.

I will admit, that to many here this is a lot of work and doesn't make sense for a hunting rifle. But to many, it absolutely does.

Buy or have built what you like.

Rich

If I remember correctly, running .308 Winchester brass through a .300 Savage full length resizing die and trimming to length is a quick solution to the .300 Savage brass problem.

Yes that will work BUT first you need 308 brass and I don't have any of that either.

I have cut more 308 Norma chambers than any other thirty Mag but that stems from the early days when I re-chambered quite a few '06's. I still consider the Norma to be the nicest of the modern thirties although it is moribund. The best of the old time thirty caliber magnums was the 30 Newton but, for whatever reason, Newton's inability to get along with the major manufacturers killed it. It was a better cartridge in every way for the Model 70 because it actually fit the magazine. I think the 300H&H is a neat cartridge just because it has some history.
I'll go back to the poll and vote other because I shoot a Norma and will probably never make nyself an H&H. Regards, Bill

This has been a pretty interesting thread and I have just a few comments from my personal experience. My little operation has assembled more than a couple H&H's, Win's and Wtby's in 30 plus years. My throat and leads today are cylindrical with a 1-1/2 degree angle per side. The Wtby is usually throated shorter than the standard factory Wtby chamber. With this throat geometry I can mimic the factory stated velocities with 3 to 4 grains less powder and better accuracy. My barrel shanks are engraved with the following "NON-STANDARD THROAT" and the rifles come with a lot of literature explaining what you can and should not do with this style throat. I have found that you can shoot the Wtby Factory ammo in these chambers if you stick to the 180 & 200gr loads exclusively and if the temperature is not above 80 degrees, summer loads these are not. If your ammo goes missing overseas you're likely screwed . All the other Federal and Remington loads have worked fine. However this set up is for the hand-loader and not for the novice or casual shooter. I haven't chambered a Wtby for a couple years now. I have always used an 11 twist when the twist choice is left to me and shot mainly 200gr Partitions. I could never get a 200gr Nosler to 3000 fps safety or accurately with either IMR or H-4831. I do not own a strain gauge but do have a chronograph and damn good Blade Micrometer and do know how to use both. I can reach 3000 fps and a bit more with quite a few of then slower burning powders. I have found that in the Wtby the "sweet spot" with a 200gr Nosler is between 2980fps and 3030fps from a 26" barrel. Case life with Norma cases is about 5 rounds and the best accuracy is usually on the first and second loading. I have hunted with combo quite a bit and have had great success with it. This combo with a good barrel will shoot far better than most people can hold on the hill. I expect .500 three shot groups with a tuned load. You cannot seat out a 200gr Nosler in my shorter throat configuration to come anywhere near the lands and still feed in the 3.660 ID magazine. Federal use to load the 200gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and 180gr Sierra Game king for this cartridge and both usually shoot into .500 and under. Like any great company they dumped those two offerings. Many of my clients heard about this impending debacle and bought cases of that ammo. I have extreme confidence when in the field with a Wtby loaded with 200gr Noslers. It is a big stick and pointed precisely kills very well up close and into the next canyon. You think you have tough elk in your state, bring it !

My experience with the 300 Win has all been at the range, I have never used one in the field. That said I have had plenty of clients rave about their success and blame any issues on themselves when the wheels have come off. I have never gotten a 200gr Nosler to 3000 fps with a maximum but what I consider a safe load even with the hardest brass. That would be a load that allowed a virgin case to NOT expand beyond .0012 on the rear edge of the belt on the 1st firing and .0002 to .0003 on the next 2 reloads with the same components, temperature, etc., 2925fps is about all can get out of a 300 Win and a 24" barrel. The sweet spot for accuracy with a 10 or 11 twist and a 200gr Nosler is 2850fps to 2900fps. Once again the slower powders have worked best for my application and experience. Accuracy is generally very good, I hope for .600 sometimes they shoot better. Recoil is less than the 300 Wtby. We have built more Wtby's that shot in the 3's and 4's than the Wins but this is likely due to the heavier fluted .700 muzzle OD, 26" long barrels than the .600 OD 24" length sporting weight barrels used on the Wins. Built identically both would likely shoot the same size groups. We have only built a few heavier barreled 300 Wins. If you hand-load you can long-throat the Win to allow the 200gr some more case space which can be to some advantage if your just shooting 200gr bullets. Once again my magazine ID is 3.660. However most folks don't want this option and prefer to use factory ammo whenever possible. I think the 300 Win is a great cartridge for those that handle the recoil well and it has the added advantage of the ammo being found all over the world which is great if you de-plane in Arusha and find your ammo went to Auckland.

I have a long history chambering and shooting the H&H but have used it very sparingly in the field. I have built more H&H's and Wtby's than the Win. I likely have built more H&H's than Wtby's. I find the H&H easy to hand load for but have had marginal accuracy with the very limited factory loads currently available at this time. The long discontinued Winchester 180gr Failsafe load was a real exception and usually gave us .500 to .700 groups with every rifle we shot that ammo in. A couple rifles would shoot even better groups. Like Federal this load was so great Winchester in their infinite wisdom discontinued it, just brilliant boys. Using the 200gr Nolser again as standard 2890fps is about where I hit the pressure wall in a 24" tube. I usually have stuck with a 10 twist and the sweet spot for accuracy seems to always be right around 2850fps as a rule. I have shot some has fast as 2900fps in "FAST" barrels but lacked the accuracy and the cases showed to much expansion for me to continue at that velocity level. I have killed a few deer and a fewer Elk with the H&H but have seen quite a few head of game taken with this round as a guide and the gun-maker in a dual duty scenario. My PH friend Campbell Smith has replaced one Pre-64 H&H barrel and needs to replace the replacement barrel now. He figures that one rifle has been used on at least 1200 head of game all over southern Africa. It has been his loaner and culling rifle from long before he became a PH. He loads and shoots 200gr Noslers at 2850fps and if it meets Campbell's requirements it good enough for me as I will never shoot that much Big Game in my life, especially with a single cartridge. If you can't get a H&H to feed you need to consider another line of work at clock-out time that very afternoon. Recoil is tolerable. With tuned loads and a good sporter weight barrel contour the H&H will shoot hunting bullets well into .500 often under with boring consistency. I like Redding neck bushing sizing dies and competition seating dies. The H&H lacks this support unless you go with custom dies such as a Neal Jones.

Do I have a favorite ? As I age I've really come to dislike recoil, I can put up with it to build and test rifles but can't ignore it anymore. I can still handle a 9-3/4 to 10lb Wtby scoped and loaded with 5 rounds. I know what I can do with such a rifle on a good day and would use it anywhere in the world providing my 200gr loads arrived on the bus. If I needed a lighter weight 300 say 8-3/4lbs I'd go to the H&H bypassing the Win. All three of these 30 caliber magnums versions will not let the user down if pointed and assembled well. But that's another issue altogether.

Please excuse and typo's I'm hitting the keys fast as dinner needs to be started.

Thank you for your expertise and experience on the subject.

The 300Wbee gives me fits trying to FL size and reload. The H&H is easy on brass, and the loader. I met Mr Jones at the Super Shoot many years ago, and have about a dozen sets of his dies. Neck tension can have an amazing effect on accuracy.

Anything I would not be comfortable taking on with my OM 70 300 H&H; time to get the 404 Jefferys or the 450 RUM out.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by rl anderson:
Yes that will work BUT first you need 308 brass and I don't have any of that either.

How much do you need? I am in the process of selling off my match rifles, most of which were .308 caliber, and I have loads of commercial and National Match brass which I would be glad to donate. I would like to have my shipping costs defrayed, however.

Mr.Echols, Thanks for sharing that amount of detailed experience with the various .300s

Q./ if i may, have you ever built a Kurz based .300wsm for a client?

DArcy_Echols_Co - Thank you for that very informative post.

So, how did you vote in the poll?

Trax I have not built a single rifle chambered for any of the WSM cartridges. In fact I don't own a WSM reamer. I know H&W have done a couple. I assume they went with the standard 98 thread form instead of the typical K small ring threads for a case of that diameter. Getting the first one of those to feed must have been a real trial by fire. Those guys are pretty fearless.

Ive handled a H&W built Kurz action & rifle in WSM,
The dandy weight and handling of such turned me right-off a heavy-long H&W magnum mauser .300H&H which I handled
that was sitting right beside the WSM...and I know Ralf Martini has also built H&W based Kurz WSM.
Thats why I wondered if there was any serious call for a WSM from any clients of yours....thanks again for the response.

Re: barrel tenon thread size;
I am under the impression H&W use a smaller than stdm98 1.10" dia. thread in their Kurz.
Martin Hagn in discussion a while ago confidently expressed to me that smaller thread diameters
hold up quite well with the larger than more regular casehead diameters.
(Hagn small thread falling-block actions are chambered in belted magnum cartridges)

Previous to that I was under the impression that WSM and small thread would be a No-No combo.

I look at the LW Weatherby 6 lug action and it only has .875" thread dia. for .473" casehead.

a SR Kurz-WSM would be .980" for a .555" casehead.

I own one of D'Arcy's Legends in 300 H&H. It shoots very accurate with 168 TTSX and also 200 Nosler. It is my preferred longrange rifle which still looks and feels like a hunting rifle and not a tactical or competition setup.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It appears that the majority of 300 H&H users today are nostalgic aficionados rather than pragmatic shooters. Nothing wrong with that mind you as I consider myself also afflicted at times. But it is foolish to deny the fact that the vast majority of hunters and shooters choose the newer .300's , for a wide variety of justifiable reasons.

Phil if you are kindly saying that I am a stubborn old man unwilling to change and embrace new technology...... I resemble that remark!