I shoot a Rem 700 in 270 and rem 7 mag. They are old built on old Chet Brown fiber glass stocks from the early 80's,

I have had some old H4831 (12+ years old)that has worked well but the other day I noticed that the regular Remington factory loads for both guns shoot faster than the old hand loads and these custom loads not nearly as fast as the original hand loads.

CCI large rifle primes appear to be doing a good job but they too are old from the last 1000 that I got.

I have two lb cans of the h4831 powder left after throwing away the can I have been using.


I need to find time to load some but wondered what the board thought.

What do you think?

What are my odds that the other two canes are weak too?
Curious what you all have experienced.

Thanks,

Jim

Sir, h4831 is a traditional winner in both the 270 Win and 7mm RM. do your research ! There is A L O T of info on both cartridges . Outside of Seguin , there was/is a well known rifle builder that was famous for its accurate and pretty rifles . My father spent some time and money in there . He got a copy of the old man's loadings . Old man kleingunther used H4831 in all his loadings ! Good enough for me . I used his 300 win mag load . It satisfies my ANAL drive/ need/requiement for accuracy !

BY the way,
12 yr old powder is N O T old .

If powder is stored right (cool temps with minimum variation) there is no way it should go bad in 12 years. I'm still using powder that is 30+ years old with no problems. Same with primers.
If you have access to a chronograph check your loads with it and load accordingly.

Powder has been sitting in my shop on top of one of the cabinets in 70-75 degrees.

Using the little inexpensive Caldwell chronograph and it seems to work fine for what I got it for.

I have been shooting these loads since I worked them up back in the earlier 80's.


The open can had been being used for several years as I do not hunt and shoot like I used to but I used to be able to take the Remington shells and change out the bullets to Nosler and all the mix and match with the hand loads and all used to end up an a less than 3/4 inch group with the hand loads being the faster loads.

Jim,
Are these loads ones that were put together quite a while ago and been sitting? Just wondering if the bullets haven't stuck to the case necks causing pressure variations. If so you might want to seat the bullets a little deeper to see if that breaks them loose and solves the problem.

As long as they shoot accurately! That's what counts!

No more than I shoot any more for the most part all my guns will hold under 3/4" but the velocity is dropping.

All I can fig on the Remington rounds is they are cutting back on the powder they use in the Rem 150 shells 10 years ago.

My orig hand loads of 57.7 gr H4831 (2850) and 7 mag of 67.5 gr if H4831 (3100) and now the velocity is less.

I set the poa at 3" high at 100 so the above is never more than 4" high any where on the flight and does not get back to even till about 250 or more and a dead on shot to ~325 yards.

Just curious to the "why" on the velocity drop for future reference for long range shooting.
Thanks,
Jim

quote:

Just curious to the "why" on the velocity drop for future reference for long range shooting.

I would think in 30+ year old rifles the throat has worn enough to change velocities.

I personally wouldn't worry about the difference in velocity between the handloads and factory loads as long as they are both accurate.

From SAAMI:

"Although modern smokeless powders contain stabilizers and are basically free from deterioration under proper storage conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects. . . . Store in a cool, dry place. Be sure the storage area selected is free from any possible sources of excess heat and is isolated from open flame, furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. Do not store smokeless powder where it will be exposed to the sun’s rays. Avoid storage in areas where mechanical or electrical equipment is in operation. Restrict from the storage areas heat or sparks which may result from improper, defective or overloaded electrical circuits."

I have about 40 lbs of 50 year old Milsurp 4831, also known as 4350 Data in some crowds.

I use the old Jack O'Connor load of 62 grs for more velocity and less pressure in my .270 and 30-06 than any modern day powder can get..It's still working..BTW you can't get 62 grs of modern 4831 in a o6 case, 58 is about max. 60 will push a bullet forward over night most of the time..

From a pressure velocity approach IMR and H 4831 still get more velocity and less pressure that any other powder in some, maybe most calibers according to tests Ive had done and read about.

The downside is you need to weigh every charge and trickle it out, a royal pain so I mostly use H414 in the 06 and RL-22 in the 270 and give up a 100 FPS, for ease of loading.

Its reported that smell will reveal bad powder, and you will get a reddish color..Seems to have worked for me on several occasions..

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
I shoot a Rem 700 in 270 and rem 7 mag. They are old built on old Chet Brown fiber glass stocks from the early 80's,

I have had some old H4831 (12+ years old)

Jim

Probably toss the h4831. Is it temperature "Extreme" version? If it is I'd keep the h4831. Modern "Extreme" are very accurate.

My favourite is H4350. What is the caliber?

H4350 is better for your 7 mag than h4831.

H4831 : 270
H4350 : 7mm REMINGTON

MY ADVICE IS TO SELL 270. BUY A SIGHTRON S3 SCOPE for the 7mm Magnum. The 7mm Remington Magnum simply everything right for elk and moose shooting TSX 160s

quote:

As long as they shoot accurately! That's what counts!

If the loads are shooting accurately, speed is not the deciding factor for aq lot of folks.

Are the loads still killing game?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

As long as they shoot accurately! That's what counts!

If the loads are shooting accurately, speed is not the deciding factor for aq lot of folks.

Are the loads still killing game?

Probably not killing much as he said he doesnt hunt or shoot as much as he used to.

quote:

Probably not killing much as he said he doesnt hunt or shoot as much as he used to.

But when he does hunt is he still killing what he is shooting at?

I shoot a little bit of everything. Mainly deer in Texas 100 to 300+ yards. I had two shots last year nosler 150 Bt's 225-230 on one and 265-270 on the other both broadsided behind the shoulder lung shots but there was not the gush of blood that you usually see. Looks like both shots the bullets kicked down and not thru the far side and very little bleeding

JimTex,
Hill country deer don't offer much resistance to a bullet of any kind...YOu will probably get a better blood trail and larger exit with a lighter bullet but along with that goes a lot of bloodshot meat..Try the 130 gr. Speer, it will punch through and give you a large exit and lots of blood in some cases.

Killing quickly, good blood, and no blood shot meat contradicts itself, but what I mention is the best compromise Ive fount..Any way for what its worth..

I hunt just out of Lometa and shot lots of those hill country deer on my uncles ranch at Goldwaite..Mostly Ive used a 25-35, 30-30, and 250 Savage. Ive used a lot of different calibers on them over the years.. This year I used my elk rifle, a 30-06 loaded with 200 gr. Nosler accubonds, and much to my surprise I got quick and/or instant kills and did some culling with same..Those bullets killed as well as anything Ive used in the past, didn't destroy a lot of meat got exit wounds the size of a nickel to a quarter and decent but short blood trails. Its kind of a trade off on those 60 to 100 pound deer. I also shot a lot of West Texas Mule deer on our Big Bend ranches had excellent results with the 130 Speer in the .284 and 7 mag. on big Mule Deer and the little Coues deer.

To me the secret is use a bullet like the Accubond or Nosler paretition on those little deer, the front end of both expand a little on contact as they are designed to open that way, They work the same on big heavy animals they expand the front portion quickly then penetrate like hell...Most folks tell me the Noslers don't open on light bodied animals, but they do, Some years past Finn Aaggard brought this to my attention so I tried it and it works!, end of story...

I had posted on another topic that I am not nearly excited at the Nosler Boat tails as I was when there was a lead tip. I was happy to have a few blunted lead tips at the end of the season. Never did have a problem and no sure the animals knew the difference when hit with the blunted tip.

Two deer last year 225 and 265 yards hit with behind the shoulder shots and dead within 50 yards but almost no blood trail with the 7 mag and 150 Nosler BT. Bullet kicked down on both shots instead of out thru the back side. VERY little blood trail.

This year culled 4 deer and all dropped in their tracks but under 140 yards and mainly spikes the rancher wanted taken. One was an axis buck to eat that the bullet ended up on the back side under the hide. The Nos 150 had debonded.

I liked the old lead tipped bullet becasue also I could mix the Remington 150 with the Nosler 150 and everything stayed in a 1 inch or less group.

Not sure why the Remingtons and my handloads have dropped some velocity from past years. Not shot the guns that much.

I use John Wooters old idea of sighting in around 3" high at 100 yards and the bullets will be a max of 4 inches high around 150 yards and stay on target out past 325 or better.

quote:

H4831 270 / H4350 7mm REMINGTON

I do mine the opposite.. H4831 IN 7MM Remington mag.. H4350 in .270 win. I always use the slower power in the mag cases.

Agree the powder is not likely "bad". Have a few cans of the old surplus 4831 - it is fine.

Incidentally, discovered several 1# cans of IMR-4831 became dusty. Powder dates to the late '80s - '90s. Inside can metal surface oxidized visibly, hence red dust. Did a search and discovered I'm not the only one. Certain IMR powders seem vulnerable.

Could still smell ether, so no olfactory evidence of powder breakdown. Checked that my 8# can from the same time had not developed this (it hadn't) then dumped the 1#-ers into glass container (kept in dark).

Chrono tested in a .300, perfectly fine in terms of velocity and consistency.

quote:

If powder is stored right (cool temps with minimum variation) there is no way it should go bad in 12 years. I'm still using powder that is 30+ years old with no problems.

No one seems to remember this eight year old gunpowder auto igniting, most likely, due to confirmation bias, everyone ignored it and its implications.





Mid nineties gunpowder I tossed. Cracked case necks after a couple of months.



This bottle of Vihtavuori cannot be earlier than 1990's and is fuming red nitric acid gas. Gunpowder that old will auto ignite and burn your house down

Old gunpowder will cause pressure increases due to "burn rate instability". As the powder grains deteriorate, they deteriorate unevenly. Instead of being a nice smooth tube or cylinder, chunks are missing and that causes pressure waves to interact. Old gunpowder has and will blew up firearms even though shooters pretty much ignore this as a cause for blowups with old surplus ammunition. Shooters buy old gunpowder and old ammunition and then create stories why their hoard is immortal.

This chart shows an accelerated powder test. Heat ages gunpowder and these samples were stored for months and then tested for pressure.

The aged samples uniformly show pressure increases.

I do not believe low velocity shots are caused by old gunpowder. The most likely reasons these 8mm Turkish Mauser bullets are moving 3000 fps is because of old deteriorated gunpowder.

http://www.turkmauser.com/ammo/mhbTurk.aspx