quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
I,ve had so many Ruger 77 mkII s that shot well I can,t remember them all .

When you get a Ruger that won,t shoot well , have someone else shoot some groups with it . .I thier groups are better than yours the problem is obvious ..

Uh Huh. How about if I send you all my Rugers that I'm having trouble with, and a generous year's supply of ammo for each. You can test them for me, and get back with me on that when you're ready, at your convenience, of course.

KB

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No thanks !! alot of the rifles you get are in some ( to me) Boring cartridges .. unless you have a 338 RCM,a 416 Ruger mag in a Ruger, 264 Win, 6.5 Creed. or 260 Rem. That needs some bullets run thru it to shoot it in . Or a 7 mag , with the option to buy , or a 270 Win. I,ve had 2 of them, and the next one I get I,m not turning loose of . Never had a 7 mag in a Ruger stainless yet ..

For starters, do you have an original mkII or Hawkeye non-magnum that has not been altered and is in good condition? If so, start with that one rifle:

Loosen all three bedding screws and ensure the angled recoil lug is fully seated. Use the following torque to start:
35-in lb front, 25-in lb rear, 15-in lb middle. Open the floor plate and confirm that the mag box has proper clearance at this torque setting without binding. The majority box new M77s I've handled will be stress free at the mag box close to these torque settings.

Hand seat both ringmounts fully flush against the recoil lug surfaces using a machined alignment bar as a guide. With the ringmounts aligned and properly torqued to the receiver, lap the rings for 80% contact. Then mounts a known straight scope that has not been torqued down into a crooked set of mounts.

Using your best consistent bench technique, test three or four premium loads of differing bullet weights. When you find the best load of these, use shimstock under the receiver to relieve the barrel pressure point to test if the rifle responds positively. If so, properly bed and float the barrel and you'll be golden. If not, test varying amounts of upward pressure to find the sweet spot. Mount the rifle in a vice at the action so the forend is free. Use a jug filled with sand, etc in measured weights hung from the front swivel to weight the forend. Place shim stock in the barrel channel to fill the void created by the hung weight for the pressure point. Start with a low weight for your first shimmed pressure point and then test for groups. Increase the weight in a measured amount and re-shim for the next group. Keep going until you find the sweet spot, it may be 2-pounds or it could be 10-pounds upward pressure. If the barrel does not respond to free-floating but does respond to a pressure point, this will allow you to find the exact measured sweet spot and you'll then be golden. Whatever the ending weight with the temporary shims, you duplicate the process with bedding epoxy for the permanent fix. Properly bed the rifle with this measured pressure point if applicable.

Over the last two decades of running Ruger rifles, I've lost count of how many M77s I took that were tossed aside as inaccurate which I was able to make shoot extremely well with some very simple techniques, some of which I have described above. There are a number of such old-school Ruger techniques to get the most out of these rifles. Most problems I've found with these later mkIIs and Hawkeyes came from action binding, wrong choice of loads, and/or shooter technique. With the proper combinations and technique, most I've handled tended to easily shoot 1 to 1-1/2MOA with premiums with handloads closer to 1MOA. Bench rifles they are not, reliable hunting rifles they most cerainly are.

If you don't care to do any such stuff, and/or the M77 doesn't fit your style, move on and find something else.

Best

Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Open the floor plate and confirm that the mag box has proper clearance without binding.

Hand seat both ringmounts fully flush against the recoil lug surfaces using a machined alignment bar as a guide. With the ringmounts aligned and properly torqued to the receiver, lap the rings for 80% contact. Then mounts a known straight scope that has not been torqued down into a crooked set of mounts.

Good Luck!

Thanks GaryVA,

First, regarding the above excerpt from your post; The binding of the magazine box can be an issue. It has to be placed in the correct position, otherwise I can see how it will bind and spring the receiver, when the screws are tightened down.

I can also see how the rings can be an issue - in several ways. If using Ruger factory rings, your advice seems good to me. However, I quit using Ruger factory rings a long time ago. I don't want to go to the trouble of lapping them, and I got sick and tired of them buggering my scopes. So, I've been using Warne or Leupold rings instead.

Also, as I was recently reminded, the scope can be a problem. Basically, when I'm talking about scopes, it's exclusively Leupold, unless stated otherwise. I have had a few scopes that caused problems at the range. I sent them to Leupold for repair, and all as I remember were fixed. I have one now, that I had previously stuck a note on with tape and a piece of paper with the word "repair" written on it. I forgot what that meant, even though it was a note to myself. I thought it meant that the rifle was in for repair, so I put the scope on another rifle and went to the range. After wasting about a half box of ammo, I remembered that the note "repair" was for the scope. It's a new scope, and I tried it twice, so what's odd is that it came that way from the factory. I didn't think that was possible with a Leupold. So, part of the point is that I generally don't declare a rifle inaccurate until I'm sure that I've tried it with a proven scope.

As to the rest of your post:
I figured that the "answer" would be some variation of what you have described. This is almost straight out of the mouths of Ruger technicians, as you would get over the phone, with a call to Ruger. There may be some improvising in your methods, especially with the jug filled with sand thing.

As you said - "for starters" - no I do not have an original Hawkeye. I had one, and 6" or greater was its best group, confirmed by my friend in Texas, with handloads or factory loads. I got rid of it, and the new owner gave favorable feedback. Apparantly he hadn't shot it yet.

BTW, I bought a used CZ 550 in 270, one of the older models, round top Minnesota mod, took it to the range with my first handloads, and it shot 3/4" groups - first try. I sent that rifle to Texas as a gift to my buddy, and exchanged it for the POS Ruger 257R, which I had given to him earlier. The Ruger just sat in his gun safe, because of inaccuracy, but he has used the 270, because it has shot well with every type of ammo we have tried, factory and handloads. There are no water jugs and sand involved with it. The CZ had been bedded by the previous owner, an not very well, but the barrel was free-floated.

Back to your techniques of getting it to shoot. It surprises me somewhat that such methods are recommended for Rugers, and especially by Ruger tech people. I have never heard of that recommendation for other rifles. Imagine, calling SAKO tech dept, and complaining that one of their rifles won't shoot accurately, and they send you something in writing, saying basically what you said.

Rediculous if SAKO says it, but OK and normal if Ruger techs say it?

"For starters", I am a firm believer in keeping it simple, relating to getting a rifle to shoot. Maybe at one time, I would have kept on trying, and used the methods as you described. I simply don't have the patience for it anymore. The basic reason for my lack of patience, is my lack of belief that it will work, and if it did somehow by miricle work, it would be an accident, and different tomorrow, and change with the weather, or over time. For one thing the pressure on the forend will change as the wood agrees over time with its new situation. Fiberglass may remain constant, but not wood.

So, my technique is simple with all rifles. With new rifles, usually I'll take them to the range, after checking the workings, and properly tightening the guard screws, with a normal gunsmith type screwdriver, hand tightened. I just make notes of how well it does. Then, generally, regardless of whether it shoots accurately or not, if an alternate stock is available, such as a Hogue for the Rugers, I drop the barreled action into the replacment stock, make sure the barrel is free floated, tighten the front screw hard tight, the rear screw moderately tight, and the middle screw just snug.

In the cases that I've seen, which have been maybe 10 or 15, if the rifle shot well out-of-the-box, it also shot well free-floated. If it didn't shoot well out-of-the-box, it may improve free-floated.

One thing has been consistant with the Rugers I've messed with. Those identified as inaccurate, improved drastically with a new custom barrel, trued receiver and lapped lugs, and free floated the barrel. I have never used a torque tool to measure the amount of torque, and always tighten the screws on all my rifles the way mentioned previously.

Fortunately, most of my other rifles use only two screws.

I have done as I described above enough times to have convinced myself at least, that messing with any technique of bedding other than free-floating the barrel, and bedding the receiver, is a waste of time. Rifles that shoot accurately will demonstrate it with an unencumbered barrel, and they will do it again tomorrow, and next year.

Of course, those determined to get a Ruger to shoot who want to try your techniques, I can't think of anything better, except do as I do and let a new owner give it a try, or replace the barrel.

The one Ruger MKII that I have, with an accurate factory barrel, for example, wears a Hogue full aluminum block stock. the barrel is free-floated, and the guard screws are hand tightened, with the middle screw just snug.

So, I have no doubt that some factory Rugers will shoot accurately, free floated, and no doubt that the actions are not the problem. The other Rugers I mentioned which have custom barrels, all wear a Hogue stock, free floated, and sub-MOA accuracy.

IMO, the problem is in the factory barrels, and if not in the barrel, discovering whether the barrel is a good one can't be determined until it's free floated. The way the rifles leave the plant, the whole thing is under torque from the pressure point at the forend tip, and that has to vary.

KB

Here is my untouched M77 in .280 Rem with a couple of different 140gr Nosler loads @ 100 yds. No trigger, barrel, or stock work. Straight out the Ruger box.

First pic is 140gr Ballistic Tip and 2nd is 140gr Accubond

There's little to bitch about there.

Except, perhaps, where's the challenge?

If I could get them to shoot like that, most likely I would be quiet, and keep the secret, and keep getting good deals.

I'm gathering my stuff and heading to the range, and work on my technique.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
I,ve had so many Ruger 77 mkII s that shot well I can,t remember them all .

When you get a Ruger that won,t shoot well , have someone else shoot some groups with it . .I thier groups are better than yours the problem is obvious ..

Uh Huh. How about if I send you all my Rugers that I'm having trouble with, and a generous year's supply of ammo for each. You can test them for me, and get back with me on that when you're ready, at your convenience, of course.

KB

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No thanks !! alot of the rifles you get are in some ( to me) Boring cartridges .. unless you have a 338 RCM,a 416 Ruger mag in a Ruger, 264 Win, 6.5 Creed. or 260 Rem. That needs some bullets run thru it to shoot it in . Or a 7 mag , with the option to buy , or a 270 Win. I,ve had 2 of them, and the next one I get I,m not turning loose of . Never had a 7 mag in a Ruger stainless yet ..

IMO, there is no such thing as a boring cartridge. Inaccurate rifles are boring.

I used to have an attitude about the 300WM, and the 270, and the 7mm Mag. Having an accurate 300WM changed that. I don't care that it uses about 75gr of powder. It is actually plesant to shoot, with mild recoil, and it has less muzzel blast than my 20" 9.3x62.

Every 270 that I've owned has been accurate. I can't be sure why I got rid of them, perhaps because I thought the 270 was hype. But if I ever get another one, just as you said, I'm keeping it.

I still have an attitude about the 7mm Mag.

KB

I have owned 3 rugers. One was a 300 win mag and two were 338's. They were all accurate though .

Last weekend I loaded up a batch of ammo, and put the Ruger 30-06 is a McMillan stock. The ammo is using Lapua brass, and H4350 powder, and Sierra 180gr BT bullets and also Hornady 180gr BT. The powder charges ranged from 55grs to 57grs, in batches of three.

The stock was previously bedded to another Ruger barreled action, and not done quite right. However the 30-06 action fit snug, so I decided to try it anyway. The barrel is completely free floated.

Today, after work I made it to the range. The conditions weren't good. About 17 deg F, but calm. I didn't have much time. The sun was setting and light going fast. So, I had to shoot faster than I like to, and didn't allow the barrel to cool. Also, I did some two shot groups to save time.

My first group is in the top right corner, and that's Fed premium 150gr Nosler bullets. That's a three shot group, first shot cold barrel is also in the group. I believe this is the first time ever that I got a good group out of a 30-06 with 150gr bullets.

The other groups are marked. I was shooting at various spots on the target, to get seperate groups.

The shot to the far left is spill over from the adjacent 308 target. As usual, I was testing two rifles, and alternated to give one a chance to cool at least a little between groups. The 308 didn't do well enough to show the target.

Anyway, I'm quite pleased. This rifle has potential, and these are the type of initial groups I look for in a rifle. It tells me that I can be assured to find a really good load for it. So, now it's ok to go ahead and spend a little money on it, with trigger work, and bedding it in the stock properly.

This is what makes a Ruger a good deal, when you can find one, or figure out how to get one to shoot this good. I think I just lucked out. An accurate stainless 30-06 could be useful.

What do you mean by "Ruger?" Shotgun, pistol, rifle? And what kind?

In any case I've never tried to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There are a lot of good guns in the world. Don't waste your time trying to get a bad gun to shoot straight.

Sorry if the title isn't clear enough. I figured that because it was under medium bore rifles, and most of the discussion has been about Ruger rifles, that it was OK. I'll fix it.

As made clear within the posts, some factory Ruger rifles are very accurate. My worry is that I'll get rid of an accurate rifle and not know it for lack of some trick, or due diligence, unknown to me.

After all, IMO it would be silly to replace an accurate barrel with an expensive custom barrel. Heck, I would rather save the money and shoot an accurate factory barrel.

For example, the above 30-06 didn't reveal itself as a keeper until I put it in the different stock. It gave some clues initially with a close group or two, but not consistantly. Now I have evidence that it will perform with my usual treatment of free-floating the barrel. That's something not easy to do with a factory stock, since it requires opening the barrel channel. I would rather not do that if I'm just going to sell it anyway, as some may precieve it as a reduction in worth.

I still maintain that the easiest and most reliable way to test a factory Ruger bolt action rifle is to put it into a Hogue stock, make sure the barrel is free-floated, and shoot a variety of ammo through it. However, that is apparantly not a sure thing, because I had already tried the above mentioned 30-06 in a Hogue stock. Previously, it didn't do badly, but not well enough to really provide encouragment.

I have a stainless 77 MKII in 280 that I had listed for sale, but I pulled the ad so I can test it some more. After the good results with the 30-06, I'm thinking I didn't try hard enough with the 280. Same thing with a 308, which I also shot yesterday, but didn't give a report. It showed improvment, but still ain't right. I'll work on both of them some more, and maybe report later.

I would like to report that I got them all to shoot well, but I've already sold two.

KB

You weren't unclear. This is after all the medium bore forum. And it's my bad for being flippant.

But unless the rifle has sentimental value, why not just get something else?

You are right, and I will get rid of them if I'm satisfied they won't meet the accuracy standards I want. I'll get tired of messing with the difficult ones soon enough.

The last one I sold, went to a guy looking for a donor action and stock. He asked if the rifle was accurate before purchasing, and I told him that it didn't show accuracy to me. He bought it anyway.

It does provide a real satisfaction when an accurate factory rifle is discovered. Maybe that's just me. It's the same kind of feeling I get when I get a really good deal. It's a plesant surprise that lasts a while, maybe years.

Another thing that is also fun - there's always another good deal, and another good rifle. I doubt that I'll ever get tired of that. So, only so many can be accumulated and shot, so at some point, something has to go before another one is acquired.

Heck, I'm already shopping for one to replace those sold. I've been wanting a 22 WMR for a long time. Hummm, it won't be a Ruger though. My unhappiness with the 77/22 is another subject.

KB

Just following up with more info.

So far, I've managed to get the following Rugers 77 MKII stainless with factory barrels to shoot one inch groups or less. 300WM, 30-06, 308 & 280. I gave up on a 7mm08, and another 308.

The 300WM was easy. It seems to shoot well with a variety of loads, and isn't picky about which stock it's wearing. I have a batch of Barnes TTSX 180gr loaded for it, ready to go. They shot very small groups in this rifle. Good combo.

The 30-06 didn't do well in the factory stock, or a drop-in Hogue, but it started grouping well when I put it in a poorly fitting McMillan. I'll have it glass bedded soon, so it fits the stock properly.

The 308 didn't do well in the factory stock, and did a little better in a Hogue stock, but started shooting one inch groups when I put it in a factory laminate stock, which had been glass bedded for another short action. The barrel is free-floated, ahead of the shank portion. Today I was using factory Nosler ammo with the 165gr Accubonds. I also got some one inch groups with it about a week ago, with handloads, using IMR 4064.

The 280 didn't do well in a Hogue stock, but I shot its first one inch group today. I put it back into the factory plastic stock, since I planned to sell it, so it has pressure on the barrel at the forend tip. Today I wanted to go to the range, and I already had some test loads ready. So, I was just lazy, and left the factory stock on it, but tightened the screws again, and installed a scope. It didn't do well until I reached the top load. Actually it's one grain over the book max. It's not too hot from indications, and the group size shrunk to about one inch with that load. I almost gave up on that batch of handloads, without even trying the top loads. The starting loads grouped so badly that I figured I was wasting my time, but went ahead anyway, just to see what the max was. The second to highest load showed no issues with pressure, but the group was still about three inches. So, I went ahead with the one grain over book max, and the group was less than one inch from the warm barrel. Could be just luck. I'm using 160gr bullets, and H4350 powder.

I have tried several loads, factory and handloads with the 7mm08 and the other 308, and different stocks, and nothing has worked yet. I already sold the 7mm08, and the 308 is for sale.

I figured someone may be interested in knowing that I was able to increase my success ratio, with a little work and experimenting. Not just one technique worked for them all. I have more work to do with them, especially the 280, but I feel a little better about it now.

KB

I have a couple of M77s, a 30-06 and a 300 magnum which I tried to make shoot well. Neither do, 2 inches at 100 is typical. What really broke me of Rugers was a 77-22 which shot a very consistent 6 to 8 inches at 50 (all day long if I did my part ). No matter the ammo, half a foot at 50. I sent it back to Ruger, they returned it, same result. I called them to find out what if anything they did. The unpleasant woman I spoke to would not say anything other than "send it back" and "the gun met Ruger accuracy specifications". She wouldn't tell me what those specs were, claimed she didn't know. I finally got her to admit that there were people at her location, gunsmiths, who knew that the specs were but wouldn't let me talk to one. She said "if they spent their time talking to everyone with a problem they wouldn't have time left to repair any guns. Or not repair them. I guess they have a lot of work on their hands, lots of people calling with problems. I was not willing throw away another $20 for shipping without some assurance it would get better result than the first time I sent it back, no such assurance was offered. I traded the gun at a large loss. Two decades ago I and three buddies bought Mini-30s. I had access to four guns, I tried and tried to get decent results, four inches at 100 was typical. I have had other problems with Rugers with unsatisfactory conclusions. I sent a letter to Mr. Steve Statelli the then President of Ruger, I didn't even get the courtesy of a reply. I'm done with Ruger. I'm in the market for a 416 and Ruger is an obvious candidate. No thanks. They can keep their junk. A pox on them.

quote:

She said "if they spent their time talking to everyone with a problem they wouldn't have time left to repair any guns.

I guess the above says it all!

I have owned a bunch of rugers in my life. I honestly liked them for a while. But only three shot well. One was a old hogs leg bolt in .284 I bought it used and someone had runterized the stock but it shot well, another 77 in .257 rbts shot real well and a # 1V in 22 250 with drop dead gorgeous wood shot prity well also. The rest were all basket cases. One of my buddies still has a 300 win that is exceptional. But I decided to stop playing the ruger lotery a long time ago. Seems like if it dont shoot rite off the bat there is nothing under the sun that will change them. Maybe re barreling might work but why bother when there are lots of rifles on the shelf that do shoot rite out of the box.

quote:

Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:
What really broke me of Rugers was a 77-22 which shot a very consistent 6 to 8 inches at 50 (all day long if I did my part ). No matter the ammo, half a foot at 50.

Two decades ago I and three buddies bought Mini-30s. I had access to four guns, I tried and tried to get decent results, four inches at 100 was typical.

I had similar experience - twice. Once long ago, and again recently, with the 7mm08. Sent it back, they said it shot accurately, but I couldnt' get it to do that for me. Sold it.

I've never had a mini-14 or mini 30. I didn't buy one because of the consistant reports of inaccuracy. I'm not the spray and pray type.

I had one of the bolt action carbines in 44 mag, and that's the one that really wasted lots of time and money. Six inch groups was about the best I could do with it, and I tried lots of different ammo. I had a gunsmith take a look at it, bed it, etc. No improvment. Over the last year, twice I have been at the range at the same time as a fellow who has a stainless version of the 44 bolt action carbine. He apparantly shoots handloads only, and casts his own bullets. Naturally I asked him about accuracy. Immediately he went into a long story about his efforts to get it to be consistant. I ran into him again about two weeks ago, same story. Heck, he was shooting better groups with his Redhawk, off a rest, than he could with the 44 rifle on a lead sled. Frankly, I don't see how they can sell those things, either from the perspective of the buyer or the seller. Is there no such thing as corporate conscience?

That has to be the worst rifle out there for accuracy, even worse than the mini-30. What a waste in both cases. Both are a good concept, and mechanically good. I like the set-up particularly with the 77-44. There is just no excuse for that kind of inaccuracy, because there has to be a solution. I see no inherent problem with the designs, so it has to be close to being right, but obviously not close enough. Whatever the problem is, Ruger could fix it, but won't. For example, I'm thinking that the 44 needs a recoil lug, to shift the stress ahead of the receiver, to keep the action stiff. Maybe beef up the action. Anyway, we and especially me, don't have the means to fix it. Ruger could if they would. That's what is most annoying.

KB

Kabluewy (or may I call you kB!?)

How about this at 100 yds?


Three shot group off the bench, Ruger Gunsite rifle with 1.5x scope and Federal .308M ammo.

Even a blind hog gets lucky on occasion.

My M77RSI was always a 2-3" gun until I tried some 135gr Sierra bullets. My M77/22 will consistently knock empty .40S&W brass off of a rail at 25 yards or print 1/2" groups at 50 with ammo it likes. But I had a 10/22 with the heavy barrel that wouldn't shoot under an 1 1/2" with ANY ammo, and I tried hundreds of dollars worth thru it.

Rugers are a bit hit or miss but I think the newer one's are getting better.

I know I'm getting better with age.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
Kabluewy (or may I call you kB!?)

I know I'm getting better with age.

Yes, call me KB. It's better than misspelling it as some do, probably on purpose. Call me whatever you want, except please don't call me Ray.

I know how you feel about getting better with age.

You are right too, that some of the Rugers will shoot accurately, and some are very frustrating.

KB

Kabluewy:

I am in this a little late, but I can relate a little Ruger experience. In 1974 I bought a 77 Ruger Tang Safety in 220 Swift. It was finicky, and I free floated it, and played with the action screws, but when I found a load, it shot .6-.7 very consistantly, 3 shots. Did take me quite a while to find the load it liked, IMR4064 was the powder. Now to today, in 1995, the throat was finally gone, so thru a friend I sent the rifle back to Ruger, for a rebarrel. When the rifle returned, not only did it have a new barrel, but stock and rings as well. Off to the range I went, and the old IMR 4064 loads shot ok, but not as well as I would have liked. Just for fun, and at the suggestion of another Swift shooter, I tried some RL15, and bingo, 3 shots in one hole. Not once or twice, but nearly every time, I now shoot it. The load is 38/RL15/55 Nosler Ballistic tip/3900fps.

I don't know how much this helps, but others I know have had good luck, but with lots of work and messing around.

Regards

Jerry

Jerry,

I think surely it's helpful to read such experience as you had, even if it's just one rifle.

I probably had become spoiled, and my expectations were too rigid. On the rifles that I have with custom barrels, I had adopted the attitude that they better shoot, after spending all that money on them, and I was rarely dissappointed. I had become used to easily finding an accurate load or factory ammo right away.

I came to the point that I figured that if a factory rifle didn't show it's accuracy potential right away, then usually messing with it would not discover anything new. I mean four and five inch groups, scattering shots all over the target is very discouraging. Apparantly some Rugers can shoot very well with little trouble, and some can benefit from messing with them and experimenting for solutions, and some never work out OK. It may be like that to some degree with all factory rifles, but I'm thinking that the ratio of out-of-the-box accurate rifles is pretty low with Rugers.

KB

quote:

I mean four and five inch groups, scattering shots all over the target is very discouraging.

Kabluewy: Thats not groups, it's shotgun patterns. I also expect any rifle I buy, to shoot 1" or better. In fact one inch, is considered not too good, in the group I run with. Since I spend most of my shooting time at the range, and very little hunting, I expect tight groups, otherwise it's not much fun. A 2" shooter is good enough for most hunting situations, but in my opinion not at the range.

I have had exceptional performance with Remington factory barrels, which is much more extensive than other brands. Pac-Nors have also been very good performers.
I have had 2 rifles barreled by ER Shaw, one excellent and one a POS.

Recently, I sent a Sako Action up to the local gunsmith, to be barreled in 243. He used a Douglas, and it wouldn't shoot much better than 1.5". I bitched a lot, and he then said he put on a Shilen, dosen't shoot as good as the original factory barrel. Do we expect too much? I don't believe we do, especially if you are experienced at reloading and shooting.

Regards

Jerry

Depends on the chambering and shooting skill set.

I don't think expecting a custom-barreled rifle by a competent gunsmith to shoot 1/2 MOA is expecting too much.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Depends on the chambering and shooting skill set.

I don't think expecting a custom-barreled rifle by a competent gunsmith to shoot 1/2 MOA is expecting too much.

Darn tootin.....especially when there's 'smiths out there guaranteeing 1.5" groups at 500 yards.......and with any barrel!

quote:

Greed: 1. A word used by liberals because they have no clue about the laws of economics.
2. A word used by people that think others with more money than they have owe it to them...(see #1 above)

vapo,
I've been pondering the meaning of your signature line for some time. I think I found the explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/user/fiercefreeleancer

Let us know if the link is relevant, and perhaps whether or not the owners of that OneWest Bank are liberals or not, in your opinion. Is this the laws of economics that you are referring to, just so I understand?

Here's some more light reading for those interested. I haven't read it all, so I'm not sure what it all means. Could be that even if I read it all, I still wouldn't know what it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OneWest_Bank

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:..... Frankly, I don't see how they can sell those things, either from the perspective of the buyer or the seller......
KB

I spent some time with a vice president of a major gun wholesaler who sells a bunch of Rugers. He told me that Ruger does not sell to you and me. They sell to a few big accounts and the gun writers. The big accounts are happy because they make money and don't have to deal with the hassles. The gun writers are happy because they get to eat Ruger steaks, drink Ruger whiskey and shoot Ruger tame deer and pheasants three or four times a year. What's not to love?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:.....Is there no such thing as corporate conscience?....
KB

Yes.

I've never had a problem getting Ruger m77 mk II's to shoot, I just work up a handload, and have it dialed within a couple shooting sessions. Sometimes I get lucky and the first handload tried shoots great.



My wifes .308 ultralight is also a shooter.

Friends with mkII's also shoot moa or better for 3 shots.

BTW, the posted group was shot from a 350 rem mag, out of the box w/ a 2.5x leupold. I did fire 10 factory rounds through the barrel before shooting that group. Factory heavy trigger, factory tupperware stock.

quote:

I don't think expecting a custom-barreled rifle by a competent gunsmith to shoot 1/2 MOA is expecting too much.

You bet!! But then you know most Smith's want to tell you how it is, no matter how much experience you have. Soon I hope, I'll not have to work so much, my goal, is to get a lathe, and do my own work. I learned to run a lathe while in High School, and it's not that hard!

Jerry

Jerry

KB,

Try 41.0gr of RL15 and a 154gr hornady. I have well my wife ruger hawkeye in 7mm-08 shoots this real well. It took several loads before I found this one. Heck this thing wouldn't shoot factory stuff worth a hoot. I just sold a ruger 77 hawkeye in a 358 after a few loads I found a load using a 225 gr sierra that thing would not shoot nosler bullets don't know why. Another ruger a 350 mag using Imr 4350 and a 250gr hornady that thing will give you clover leaf groups. I had a ruger in a 243 man that thing was garbage. I have well my daughter boat paddle 77 in a 243 will shoot 100gr nosler lights out using imr 4895. Anyhow you get your 323 up and going?

I have owned one Ruger--a .243--and it shot great. I don't know if it came out of the box shooting well, or not, since I obtained it used.

A friend has a Ruger, just about like mine, except it is a 7mm and we can't get it to shoot better than 1.5" groups. (I know, 1.5" groups is probably more than adequate for most hunting situations. However, we thought we could develop a load that would shoot better.)

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
KB,
Anyhow you get your 323 up and going?

That 323 project has caused me more trouble than any project I've had done. The only reason for that is because I tried to have the gunsmith use a stainless Lother Walther barrel. If it hadn't been for that poor decision on my part I would have been shooting it by now. The only things it has accomplished so far is to piss off one gunsmith, and the barrel maker, and it dulled my reamer so that it has to be resharpened, if even that will salvage it. I'm supposed to get everything back in the mail any day now, but my FFL holder just left town. It's supposed to go on a CZ 550 medium action, and next time I'll probably try a Douglas barrel since I already have a turned #4 stainless blank. There have been many unneccessary obsticles, all directly attributable to the LW barrel blank. As soon as the parts come in, I'll send the reamer to PTG, and wait on his verdict as to whether it can be utilized. With a good reamer, I'm thinking it should be no problem for another gunsmith to take the project to completion.

I sold the 7mm08 already, but kept a 280 for future testing, if I don't sell that one too.

Yesterday, I went to the range with my Ruger 77 MKII in 300WM, and shot for groups at 300 yds, which is something I can't remember doing before. This rifle has been doing well at 100 yds, so I just wanted to see. I got MOA groups with one handload, and about 4" with another load. Not too bad for the first try, and I'm using Remington brass that I picked up at the range. It's been sized, trimed, and shot once before in my chamber. It shoots well enough that I would be comfortable with shots at that range for deer and hogs, and caribou. That's nice, and all I had done to it was a Timney trigger. I wish they all could be like that.

Another bit of interesting info. The fellow who has the 44 mag Ruger rifle, which is chit for accuracy, recently bought a compact 77 MKII in 308, with the walnut stock. I was at the range when he was testing it for the first time, with factory loads, and it got about 1.5" groups. I met him at the post office yesterday, and he had cut out a group from the target to show me. Apparantly he was carrying it around in his pocket he was so proud of it. It was close to 1/2". I don't remember the bullet but he said it was 3031 powder.

It amazes me, that some Ruger's will shoot that well, and I don't seem to acquire them more frequently. Of course I'm very happy for my friends who are so lucky. At least I got lucky with the 300, and I think I can improve the groups a little. At one time, I was thinking about having a 6.5x284 built on some good action, but now I see that the 300 WM Ruger will do what I need done, and it's paid for.

KB

As a counterpoint to my satisfaction with the .270 Ruger, I recently shot an M77 MkII in .308 with a varmint barrel & using factory ammunition it was pushed to place five bullets inside 4" at 100yds.
On the same day I shot another MkII in 220 Swift that is consistently sub MOA despite a throat so worn that bullets would need to be seated outside the case to meet the lands.........

I've had 4 out of 4 rugers (markII & hawkeye)shoot very accurately

I'm sorry to hear your ruger won't shoot well I know how frustrating that can be because I had the same problem with reimingtons. Now I am very very hesitant to buy remingtons because I don't know if I'll be wasting my money. I'm sure it.s been mentioned, but I always tighten both screws just snug, then loosen them just barely. Then I tighten the front screw all the way, then tighten the rear afterwards.

I'm kindof surprised there are so many vocal Ruger haters. I have a couple, two bought new back in the late 80's,(tang safety) one in .257 Roberts and one in .338 WM. The Roberts has shot well all along. The .338 has been messed with but maybe not Rugers fault. I let the shop talk me into having the muzzle ported before I even shot it. They assured me the porting would reduce recoil and not have any adverse effects.
HOGWASH! After much frustration and 5" patterns I took it to a gunsmith and requested the ported section be cut off. He inspected it and asked if he could play with it. He was curious as he'd not seen a porting job like it had and wondered if I had a "bad" Ruger and it was no fault of the porting. He started a process:
1. Glass bedded the action only = little improvement.
2.trigger job,lapped lugs = little if anything changed.
3. pressure point in forend = some improvement
4. backbored the ported section = a little improvement
5. At this point he cut off the porting crowned it with a recessed crown as requested. = Vast improvement, now shooting just under 1.5" @100yds.
6. removed the pressure point = it now shoots like a bench gun! Ican get 1/2 to 5/8" groups even as bad as I wiggle. I shoot groups with touching hole regularily with it in several weights and styles.

Was it a "bad" rifle? I'll never know for sure but it shoots as good as a custom with a factory barrel on it. It is now slightly shorter so that also affects the harmonics but proof is on paper.

I also bought a well used .22-250 tang safety model and it shoots short bullets well but longer not as much. Flat based bullets shoot best out of it and I have not dumped it on anyone.
My most finicky rifle was my Model 70!

Kabluewy:

I have had trouble getting some Ruger No.1s to shoot. I remember a little 7X57 that just drove me crazy. However, all my Ruger bolt guns have shot pretty well. I had a 280 Remington that was a tack drive. Wish I still had it. I am presently breaking in a Ruger .338 Compact Magnum. I'll post the results after I find a good load/bullet combination.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
I'm kindof surprised there are so many vocal Ruger haters. I have a couple, two bought new back in the late 80's,(tang safety) one in .257 Roberts and one in .338 WM. The Roberts has shot well all along. The .338 has been messed with but maybe not Rugers fault.

I removed the pressure point = it now shoots like a bench gun! I can get 1/2 to 5/8" groups even as bad as I wiggle. I shoot groups with touching hole regularily with it in several weights and styles.

It is now slightly shorter so that also affects the harmonics but proof is on paper.
(

Several years ago, I got a super good deal on a stainless MKII in 338. It was in a pawn shop in Juneau, and I bought it in Jan, Feb or March, good months for good deals on rifles. I didn't shoot it at the range, and let a friend talk me out of it. Unfortunately I had already told him the price I paid for it. He later told me that it was super accurate. That's often the kind of luck I've had with Rugers.

No, I don't hate Rugers. I have too many of them to hate them.

I have made progress since I started this discussion. I have sold those that I was having trouble with, and all I have left are those that shoot accurately. Three have custom barrels - a 308, 9.3x338, and a 458.

The others still wear their factory barrel. I tried the 300WM at the 300 yd range about two weeks ago, and it was MOA. I'm surprised and pleased. I haven't tested the others thoroughly yet, and only at 100 yds, but they are all MOA, and include a 30-06, 280, and another 308.

I hated to get rid of the 7mm08, but It didn't want to cooperate with me. Usually they improve, when the barrel is free floated, but this one didn't.

Recently I bought another Ruger SS MKII short action, just the action, but it hasn't arrived yet. I plan on having something special made out of it, which I may post later.

KB

I have bought Remington and Winchester rifles that you could take out of the box, adjust the trigger, and meet or exceed your expectations. Of the three Rugers that I have owned two are gone and were major disappointments and the third a 10/22 has been fine except for a trigger which is easily upgraded for more than I paid for the gun. Couldn't they have put A better trigger in? They are indeed modestly priced, but I wish I had paid A little more and recieved A better product.

Sell them...that's what I did with my two Ruger Model 77s. While I admired Bill Ruger and own other Ruger products such as a 10/22 and a Super Redhawk chambered in 44 Magnum, a Ruger centerfire rifle will never again grace my gunsafe...

There are other manufacturers who produce accurate rifles with the design features I like.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

How do you get Rugers to shoot accurately?

It's really quite easy.....simply trade them for Remingtons!

Vapo, I have a 700 CDL that I would be happy to sell you.

quote:

Originally posted by 338zmag:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

How do you get Rugers to shoot accurately?

It's really quite easy.....simply trade them for Remingtons!

Vapo, I have a 700 CDL that I would be happy to sell you.

Thanks but I already have way way way too many guns!