Hi Folks,
A local pawnshop has a Browning .338 Winchester( stainless synthetic with the BOSS) at a good price and I am currently trying to work out the details of a trade for it.

Although a .338 is a little big for my neck of the woods, I am intrigued by the lighter bullets that are now available for it. A 160 grain Barnes X or 180 grain Nosler BT should make a grand deer stopper and shoot much flatter than one would think possible for such a large bore.

Has anyone used these caliber/bullet combinations for deer and antelope size critters? If so, how is the accuracy of such light bullets in the .338? Also, how destructive are they on the game? Similar to a .300 Winchester and A 150 grain bullet or just a nice, big half dollar size hole in the carcass.

Thanks for the input
Good Shooting,
HBB

I have a .338-06 & a .338mag. The lightest bullet I shoot @ game is the 200gr Speer (.338-06). The fine 210grNP gives you all of the flat trajectory you need to 400yds. I have never really understood the need for a poor SD 160-180gr bullet in any .338. If you want to shoot 160gr bullets, I think you are better off w/ the good, lt. wt. 06 or .308. Besides, how flat shooting do you need in N. Carolina woods?

hillbillybear, I've used the 200 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in the .338, and it is devastating bullet. Deer and antelope drop in their tracks.

One shot was taken at less than 100 yards: I saw the animals chest collapse, then rebound. When I walked up to it, it literally had been blown sideways about 3-4 feet, you could see the skidmarks that the hooves had left in the dirt!

Saved the best for last, the bullet went in between two ribs, then exited breaking two ribs: damage was minimal.

I would NOT use this bullet on larger game.

FredJ,
While a lot of NC hunting is thickly wooded, thicket-infested country , the areas I regularly hunt in NC, SC, and SW Va, are large, open agricultural areas broken by stands of timber and logging clear cuts. You commonly encounter shots of 350 yards and shots of the 500 yard variety are not out of the question.

In fact, the hunting tactics we employ are more of the spot and stalk type used in the West or the big shooting towers of Texas rather than stand sitting among the oaks all day. Our average shot is much longer than many areas of the east (i.e. 50 yards or less).
I would estimate our averages fall between 150 and 200 yards with longer ones quite common.

The .300 Winchester and Weatherby, 7MM STW and 7MM Remington Mag., .25/06 and .257 Weatherby equipped with 4x-12x, 4.5x -14x and 6.5x-20x scopes are among the most popular deer getters in this area. The .270 and .30/06 with good long range loads and optics are also popular here.

HBB

Hillbilly I will address your question--yes I have used them and yes they will put a stop to things toot sweet. Especially the 180 Noz. It is quite accurate and it will be a bit tough on the steaks and chops.

So get after it and use it-it'll do good by you.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

If you like bloodshot gulosh and green slime as opposed to clean red meat, your spot on!!

I like the 250 Nosler for deer and if I'm in a area that calls for long range shots then the 210 Nosler works very well...I also favor the 300 gr. Woodlieghs for elk..

If I want a long range rifle and 180 gr. bullets then I will go with a 300 of some kind...

The 180 338 drops velocity pretty quick at extreme ranges, loses it penitration and developes the flutter factor....It in effect becomes a muzzle loader round ball so to speak...

Velocity is really over rated in the over all picture of hunting IMO...the difference in most of the touted loads is in the 3 to 4 inch catagory between most of the cartridges and I can wiggle that much.

I like the 250 Sierras. Half dollar size exit, drops them in thier tracks, and you can eat right up to the hole.

HBB, I have killed about a dozen whitetails with the 175 X at 3300 in my 340 Wea. and have yet to blow one in half. Indeed, my 257 Mag with 100 grainers damages a lot more rib cage, which I don't eat anyway. Stay away from the shoulder and you should do fine, if you get the Xs to shoot well in your rifle.

Hillbilly-sorry to deviate here a bit but I have a question for Ray.

Ray here is the question-you make some pretty stong statements about the 180/338 combo.

What I would like to know is exactly how much game have you shot with that bullet? In addtition to that how much long range bullet testing have you done with the round.

I always find it very interesting how opinions vary-especially when it comes to bullets/rifles/cartridges etc. Your experiences with the trajectory is very unlike mine. So, please let me know exactly how many deer/elk and antelope you have shot with this round?

I am anxiously awaiting your response-so I can your findings in the killing of game with said bullet, as well as how your long range tests worked.

Oh yeah Ray a couple of last things-

#1--you say they lose it at extreme range-please define what you mean by extreme range (how many yards?)

#2--what the heck is this stuff about flutter factor and muzzle loader round ball all about?

Many thanks for your time

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

[ 08-04-2003, 02:41: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

I also have shot about 12 whitetails with the 175 grain X bullet in 338 (and a few with the 185 XLC's). In no case was the meat damage excessive. That is the nice thing about X bullets. They are built correctly, so you don't have to worry about overexpansion or lack of penetration. I wouldn't trust the other brands in the lighter weights. The 175's would work fine for elk as well.

Ken you are right-from experience I can say that the 175's will work just fine. This is no theory-just plain old load and go to the hill and shoot em in practice here.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

I have killed two elk and two whitetails with the 338 win and 200g ballistic tips with a MV of 3050. Shots were all between 100 and 200 yds. I had the core seperate from the jacket on the one bullet I recovered from the elk with a retained weight of around 60% if I recall correctly. Knocked the bull down and he stayed there. The other bull was a pass through, he fell soon after. I recovered one bullet from a large whitetail buck, shot down through the spine at 150 yds, again core had seperated but meat damage was what I would expect from any bullet given the shot placement. The ballsitic tips are extremely accurate in that rifle and cheap to shoot. I will continue to use them for paper and deer/antelope. I'm going to the 210 partitions for elk. Try both the 200 and 180 g BT's, they'll work great for deer (they're more heavily constructed than the 30 cal BT's) and they're a fraction of the cost and hassle of X bullets. Work up to 76g RL19 and 200g BT's and I think you'll be pleased. The 338 WM is one of the truely fine rounds out there in my opinion.

Snowcat--good to hear from you--did you see much for bruins this spring?

Say for years I traveled thru your valley with work. I always kind of wondered if the next big time whitetail out of Montana wouldn't come from the Condon area. What do you thin--some big boyz up there or was I way out to lunch. Looks like tough country to hunt.

Thanks for your time

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

[ 08-04-2003, 08:53: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

Hillbillybear. I have shot the 180 Nosler BT's at deer and sheep for many years with complete success and would reccommend them without reservation out of a 338 WM at 3000 fps. I have also tested these bullets into soaking wet phone books several times and found they perform better than some heavier bullets that certain people reccomend on this BBS. I have also developed a great load in my rifles using the 175 Barnes X and 68.0 grains of Re15 at 3200 fps but haven't shot anything with it. The lighter bullets seem to work very well in the lighter animals below the size of elk and moose dropping them very quickly with minimal meat lose. I like them so much that I am planning to build a lightweight rifle in 338 WM just to shoot a 175 or 180 grain bullet in order to keep the caliber the same in my collection of hunting rifles in place of a 350 RM. In posting in the various BBS over the past few years, however, I have found that many people equate a 338 WM with the old tradition of using heavier weight bullets and have somewhat closed minds regarding the lighter weights. They do work well and you will have great results. Good Luck, Steve

No offense to anyone intended,

The reason for A light bullet in a 338 mag escapes me for some reason.

I can only see a possible logical reason if the rifle was downloaded to velocities under 3000 fps, just to reduce recoil and realizing you don't need massive firepower for a North Carolina whitetail.

However since this is a BAR you are talking, downloading is not an option, if it is to recycle. ( anyone correct me if I am wrong).

Like Fred 338 said, a 210 grain partition or a 200 grain Speer or Hornady would be the choice bullets for your applications.

Ray Atkinson gives good advise also.

The Browning in question is an A-Bolt.

HBB

Ray usually gives good advice , sometimes.....

The 180 gr .338 bullet is ballistically equivalent to a 150 gr .30 caliber . I think that is quite a bit better than a round ball and plenty for the task of putting a hole thru some whitetails........

Bear,

thanks for the update on A bolt. Now if that dumbass seafire guy will just get down and buy those bifocals it looks like he needs......

Oh Ray...we are a waiting to hear of your experiences.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

A couple of things to think about whilst we await Rays response.

First off, if anything I feel the 180 Noz/33 is gonna penetrate better at long range than at shorter. So for a deer, I do not worry about this bullet penetrating enough at long range. Trust me on this it will do just fine! Pick a end I'll shoot at it and we'll have venison.

And secondly here is a quick lil drag race of the two bullets talked about here.

We'll look at the 180 Noz, and the 210 that Ray prefers for long range work.

We can take a quick look at how much speed they lose, and how much they drop. Both bullets I started out with 100 yard zeros just to keep the bucket full of apples and apples and that all were starting from the same line.

338/180 Noz Bt @ 3200
400 yard drop=23"
500 yard drop=43"

its speed is down to 2024 so it has lost 1176 fps over 500 yards

338/210 Noz Pt @ 3000
400 yard drop=26.
500 yard drop=49"

its speed is down to 1929 so it has lost 1071 fps
Come on now, people can hit me harder than what that will amount to.
hmm.. I don't think this idea of Ray's is holding any H20

At any rate either will work just fine. I have found that when I am doing research of a new bullet I like to hear from people that have USED the bullet and taken game with it and shot targets at long range with it. I want to know what they have found, and not what they feel/believe or what their predudices belive to be true.

Just my thoughts....

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

HBB, thanks for the update on NC hunting. I have never hunted their, I have seen photos of the country side & thought it much like PA or KY. Even for 300-350 yd shots though, there isn't really much diff. in drop between a 180-225gr bullet.

Mark, same point on the 180bt vs 210np. a 3" diff. in drop @ 400 isn't really relavent to most hunting situations. Most can't hold 3" @ 400. Not a fluttering round ball by any means, but I'll stay w/ my 210np (although that 225grNAB may get the go in my .338mag). It's like the SMK thing, everyone shoot what they want & let's hear about the good kills as well as the ugly ones.

I am not opposed to the mono metal bullets. I just find the 'x' bullet too much work to get a good load for when I have always been able to get NPs or other good bullets to shoot well w/ alot less fuss.

[ 08-05-2003, 05:23: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Fred my main point about the drop was really directed towards Ray-he made it kind of sound like it had the trajectory of a rainbow. It does not it shoots flatter than what he was talking about.

Oh Ray.... still waiting to hear from you and about your use of the 180's.....

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

[ 08-06-2003, 03:29: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

Just like the post on the 338/06.

One thing nice about the 338 bore, is that it is much harder to pick a bad bullet than it is to pick the best one. Anything in a 338 bore just plain works, unless the game weights as much as something that needs a license plate.

If you load her hot, and all you have to do is get use to the recoil. However, with some fast powders like 4198, or RL 7 or XMR 5744, you can develope a load that makes it kick like a 30/06 in slow motion. Accuracy is still there in a Browing. Mine is accurate enought to embarrass some good varmint rigs.

Personally I don't think there is really a down side to this choice unless it is recoil, and only you can answer your ability to handle or learn to handle it. No one on here can dispute its performance on game, especially in the lower 48 available species.

[ 08-06-2003, 09:50: Message edited by: seafire ]

Most people looking to shoot light bullets should be discouraged. The whole light for caliber thing just doesn't work well. But in this case I'd say it's a little different. As long as you want to make the 338 behave more like a 300 at closer ranges you don't get the same long-range problems that show up with light bullets. A 180gr 338 at lower speeds and short ranges should do just fine on deer. And if any rifle can provide accuracy with that combo, the A-bolt is it.

Get the A-bolt if you still can. You can always step it up later if you need it.

Mark-
Great to hear from you. With as wet as the spring was up here it seemed like the bears were where ever they wanted to be and they emerged very late--I never got a shot.
I am seeing some tremendous whitetails however, both in the Swan and in the Clearwater valleys. We took quite a hit in the winter of 96/97 and lost most of out fawns and bucks but survival has been outstanding since then--a lot of twinning and those bucks I've seen killed in late winter--(I pick up a lot of roadkill for work) have been carrying plenty of fat. If you do the math that's a bunch of 5-6 year old bucks running around up here. We've always had the genetics to produce trophy quality animals and, like you say, due to the thickness of the vegetation, many die from old age. In previous years I'd have bet the records would come out of the Milk River country or Front but with blue tongue and the drought out there I'd say here or the Flathead may be a better bet. If you make it up here this fall I can point you to some places to start. Take care.
Jay Kolbe

hillbillybear, I came across an interesting option you might like to consider. On Lazzeronis site they have a 185 gr. bullet called the LazerHead. Supposed to be very effective, might be worth looking into.

Its all about sectional density. A 150 gr .308 and a 180 gr .338 at the same velocity, with the same construction will do the same thing, except the .338 hole will be bigger and it will have 20% more energy. Inside 200 yadrs, the 180 BT in 338 will be overkill for NC deer unless you slow it down a bit, but that's what makes the 338 so flexible.

Here is a ballistic computer readout for the 180 grain Nosler BT .338 and the 150 grain .308 Nosler BT: Almost Identical

Input Data: 338 Winchester Magnum 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip
@ 3260 fps (Load found on Page 405 Nosler Manual #5 75.0 grains of IMR 4350).
Muzzle Velocity: 3260.0 ft/sec
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.372
Drag Function: G1 <>
Bullet Weight: 180 grains
Sight Height: 1.50 inches
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 10 mph
Zero Range: 200 yards
Temperature: 59.0 �F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level


Calculated Table
Elevation: 4.258 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec)
0 3260.0 4247.5 2.61 -1.5 -0.0 0.0 0.000
50 3120.6 3891.9 2.49 0.3 0.2 8.3 0.047
100 2985.4 3562.0 2.39 1.2 0.7 16.9 0.096
150 2854.2 3255.9 2.28 1.1 1.7 26.0 0.148
200 2726.9 2971.9 2.18 -0.0 3.1 35.4 0.201
250 2603.3 2708.6 2.08 -2.3 4.9 45.3 0.258
300 2483.3 2464.6 1.98 -5.9 7.2 55.7 0.317
350 2366.8 2238.8 1.89 -10.9 10.0 66.6 0.378
400 2253.8 2030.1 1.80 -17.5 13.3 78.0 0.443
450 2143.5 1836.3 1.71 -25.7 17.2 90.1 0.512
500 2036.0 1656.8 1.63 -35.9 21.8 102.7 0.583

Input Data: .300 Winchester Magnum 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip @ 3266 fps (Load found on page 355 of Nosler Manual #5 81.5 grains of VIHT N 165).
Muzzle Velocity: 3266.0 ft/sec
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.435
Drag Function: G1 <>
Bullet Weight: 150 grains
Sight Height: 1.50 inches
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 10 mph
Zero Range: 200 yards
Temperature: 59.0 �F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level


Calculated Table
Elevation: 4.181 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec)
0 3266.0 3552.6 2.18 -1.5 -0.0 0.0 0.000
50 3146.3 3297.0 2.10 0.3 0.2 8.2 0.047
100 3029.8 3057.3 2.02 1.1 0.6 16.8 0.095
150 2916.3 2832.5 1.94 1.1 1.4 25.7 0.146
200 2805.6 2621.6 1.87 -0.0 2.6 34.9 0.198
250 2697.7 2423.8 1.80 -2.2 4.1 44.5 0.253
300 2592.5 2238.5 1.73 -5.6 6.0 54.5 0.310
350 2489.9 2064.8 1.66 -10.3 8.3 64.9 0.369
400 2389.9 1902.3 1.59 -16.3 11.0 75.7 0.430
450 2292.5 1750.4 1.53 -23.9 14.2 87.0 0.494
500 2197.3 1608.1 1.46 -33.2 17.9 98.7 0.561