Hey Gonzo, Thank you. It does sound like an excellent idea for the Beginners and those with some experience but that may have a shoulder problem or a Pacemaker.

Did he or you happen to notice if there were any other calibers/cartridges available in this Managed Recoil stuff?

Hotcore, Remington lists '06, 270 and 7mag loads in Managed Recoil.

Personally, I think this is one of the best things they could possibly have done to keep new shooters interested in the sport, particularly females and kids. Not everyone is a testosterone crazed recoil junky like us.... LOL! Dutch.

Hey Did Remington get that idea from Seafire?

I had better consult my lawyer??

Do they use Blue Dot, lol?

Cheers and Good shooting
BBBruce's favorite guy..... seafire

Hey Dutch, Thanks for the caliber availability update. I still enjoy the shoulder smashers too, but can certainly appreciate reduced Loads and their intended uses.

One of my buddies will be using some of Seafire's Blue Dot Reduced Loads< !--color--> in a 30-30 this year on Deer " IF " he is healthy enough to walk a couple of hundered yards. His health is a mess and has one of those Jump Starters for his heart(Pacemaker). Looks like the older I get, the more folks I find to drag Deer for.

For people that don't have access to a Reloader, this Managed Recoil concept might just be what is needed to get them back afield, just like Gonzo's pa-in-law. And obviously a fine way to get the Beginners going too.

The only way I can imagine this concept falling on it's face is if Remington decides to price it so no one is interested in buying it. I say that because I happened to notice the price on some 7mmSAUM last year at $27 a box in Bass Pro Shop. Pitiful!

Just think of how much ammo, and new rifles, they would sell if it was priced at $9/box. They need to have it slightly lower than most of the Promotion Loaded 30-30 and 30-06 ammo to get the good ole boys thinking about them. Makes me wonder if Remington is trying to kill the SAUMs off early, like they did the 5mm rimfire.

Trev, as usual Australian practicality!

cheers
seafire

So how many shot groups do you SOPHISTICATED Europeans do Carcano?

Another question: Is there a reason most of your responses to about anything is condescending all the time? It is either correcting someone or being critical of what they post. Not many of the other European guys seem to feel the need to do this. Is there something special you know that everyone else doesn't, or are you one of the Euro Elitist, like our Democratic Liberal Elitist that just think they know so much more than everyone else and deserve to have special attention given to them because of it.

I think it is called being insecure, so we cover it up with trying to sound more intelligent than we really are by dumping facts on people they have no interest in really hearing. Especially from the source it is coming from.

But what do I know, I am an American, and by European standards you guys think we don't know much anyway.

( Might surprise you, we know a lot more than YOU think we do)

That statement is like asking someone what time it is and they want to tell you how to build a watch.

Depends on what the guy is looking for. He may not be looking for all the gobs of information you think YOU need. He is sort of thinking what HIS needs are.

And you don't consider the words" learn from your betters" as sort of pompous??

Some of you European guys always talk about the USA being pompous? Personally looked in the mirror lately?
Geesh!

seafire

Well a lot of time, my 3shots groups can tell me enough that I can hit a ground squirrel at 300 yds, that is the size of a Coke Can. This is with a rest of course, but that seems to tell me all I need to know!



A three shot group even at 50 yds, tells me what the load and rifle are capable of. Beyond that, it must be determined what I can do by practicing with that load. I handload all of my ammo. Haven't bought store ammo in 6 yrs now.



With the cost of ammo in Europe, is this like showing that the more money I spend on it, the better I am. Like I am a better driver if I own a Beamer ( BMW for you Euro types) over a VW??



Maybe some of us can get along just fine with what meets our needs, NOT some one elses, regardless of what corner of the world they reside in.



seafire

Carcano, I learn from my betters all the time. Never have learned a damn thing from you, though.

Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that you manage say in one paragraph that a three shot group is meaningless, and not meaningless.

It is very simple, really. A three shot group can give you any useable statistic you might want, since any of the (n-1) based stats can be calculated, particularly the standard deviation. You can calculate the mean and distribution of POI, the mean probability of future group sizes, average velocity and the distribution of velocities. To mention a few.

Simply put, if I shoot a 10 mm group at 100 (yards or meters), the probability is better than 99% (2 standard deviations or so) that that load will kill any deer out to that distance if the shot is aimed at the center of the kill zone.

Exactly what other information does a three shot group need to give to the short distance hunter? Dutch.

A 3 shot group seems to have opened my eyes as to who to listen to on this forum and who not to listen to!
I'm just glad the greenies around here wont get to see Carcano hunt if he needs 2 or 3 5 shot groups to bring down everything he shoots at! Then again, I'll bet the ammo stores love him.
A guy at my club used to be into benchrest in a big way, He calls multiple 5 shot groups" throwing bullets away, looking for a flier".His idea is that when building up a load, it is far quicker to use 3 shot groups to find loads that show promise and are worth developing.
Of course I'm waiting to be flamed here too!
Thanks Seafire!

Carancoocoo Wrote:

Quote:

---

"Three shot groups are meaningless."

---

Guys, I'm still rolling here.


Yea, a one hole 200 yard 3 shot group is meaningless. HA HA I guess we should all throw out our data logs and start over.


Reloader

The only meaningless thing I see here is Carcano's statement of absolutes.

A three shot group is not meaningless. It contains less information than a 5 shot group, just like a 5 shot group contains less information than a 10 shot group, or a 5-5 shot group aggregate.

What really is the point is that throwing out inflammatory one liners (and incorrect ones, at that) does not contribute to this community, unlike the sophisticated posters that Carcano aspires to. Ironically, he has neither the knowledge nor the personality to achieve that goal. JMO, Dutch.

I always only shoot one shot groups!

Because the next two shots always wastes ammo and ruin my perfect one shot group! Happens every time.


...... what Carcano thinks we all must be.........

It must be nice to be a legend in your own mind! Carcano, you are not related to BBBruce are you? Just wondering.

seafire
'

Treve:

Welcome. You are not a true AR forum veteran until you have had a few tail feathers plucked and some one trying to light the rest on fire.

A lot of good people on here also. I have had the priviledge to meet a few face to face. I treasure the experiences.

Don't ever feel guilty about speaking up. NO one else seems to., lol
cheers and good shooting mate!
seafire

Thanks for dragging this post into the mud Carcano. I logged in to see if there was any activity and when I saw 16 or so responses I foolishly thought I might learn something. I should have known some uppity jerkoff had hijacked it instead.



And Seafire, shame on you for taking that bait. Tsk tsk.



My response to criticism on this post: I didn't claim that this was the end-all verdict on Managed Recoil ammo. I made very clear how much, or how little, was involved in this experiment. Note "Prelim" in the subject for starters, and at the end "Based on a very limited test with one rifle."

I won't say a three shot group is meaningless, but I will say the logic behind saying "I never shoot more than 3 shots at game, so why should I shoot a five shot group" is not logical.



As Dutch aluded to, shooting a group is an exercise in trying to ascertain probablity of a population given a sample. The larger the sample, the better your information.



Let's look at it this way: suppose I had a coin and I thought it was wieghted to always land heads. I flip it three times, and all are heads. Wow, I conclude, that is weighted towards heads.



Probably, but not necessarily. Any coin that is not wieghted will land heads three times in a row about once every eight tries. However, landing heads five times in a row only happens every 32 tries - so by flipping two more times, you are four times more certain about the outcome.



I have shot plenty of 1/4 MOA 3 shot groups that didn't turn out to be worth a hoot. Hell, I once shot a 3/8 inch group (3 shots) sitting with a sling (no rest) at 200 yards! Am I a good shot? Yea, if I do say so myself. Am I THAT good? No.