Oldun:

You forget I am from Arizona, out here most people would use the word for excrement that begins with the letter "S". I think you Kiwis are, perhaps a bit more gentel than we Yanks may be. Had I seen this coming, I would have used discriptive terms that would be perhaps, a little softer.

As to the 7mm-08, its almost a 280 Rem, the 260 Rem, is almost a 6.5-06, and the 358 Winchester, is almost a 35 Whelen. Almost, but not quite. If there is an issue with the above statement, either way, it won't amount to a hill of beans, unless you happen to be one of the trendy folks, who if they don't have a short action are just not in the mainstream of shooting.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
The past couple years I have used a Kimber 84M in 7-08 to fill my antelope tags. It worked very well out to 400 yards with 140 gr NBTs.

Don't you know you weren't supposed to be able to do that with such a puny cartridge?

There really isn't a spits worth of difference between the two. At least not so's a deer could tell.

Granted, these are Remington factory loads being compared, but it does show a comparison of same weight bullets out of both guns.


I chose the 7MM-08

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

First Shot

That sure shows the people who think the 270 is the best long range cart of the 2 with the 7mm-08 having retained better energy & velocity figures out past 300 yards than the 270.

I too chose the 7mm-08 & it gets even better with heavier bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbo:
First Shot

That sure shows the people who think the 270 is the best long range cart of the 2 with the 7mm-08 having retained better energy & velocity figures out past 300 yards than the 270.

I too chose the 7mm-08 & it gets even better with heavier bullets.

Just did a comparison on the Federal (premium vital shok) site (tried to post it like First Shot - how'd you do that!?). Comparing 3 ea 140 grain270 loads and 4 ea 140 grain 7-08 loads.

http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?pg=27&firearm=1

2 out of 3 of the 270 loads had significantly more energy downrange and substantially less drop downrange than the 7-08. The only one that was almost the same as the 7-08 was a regular (not high energy) 140 gr TBBC, probably because of the low ballistic coefficient of the bullet.

Federal doesn't show any loads in heavier bullets than the 140 gr in 7-08. The 7-08 should be a fine caliber for deer but doesn't compare to the 270, especially when you can reload a 140 gr TSX at 3170 fps.

The Nosler #5 manual lists the top velocity for 140 gr Nosler BT at 3018 with a BC of .456 and a SD of .261. For the 7-08 it lists top velocity of the 140 gr Nosler BT at 2922 with a BC .485 and a SD of .248.

Ballistics with 200 yard zero at 5000' altitude:

270 - 1969 fp at 300 yards, drop of 35.9" at 500 yards

7-08 - 1880 fp at 300 yards, drop of 37.9" at 500 yards

Not a huge difference, but please don't tell me the 7-08 is better than the 270 in downrange energy or trajectory!

Whatever animals you kill with either one will not know the difference.

quote:

Not a huge difference, but please don't tell me the 7-08 is better than the 270 in downrange energy or trajectory!

Woods

I was refering to the chart above when I commented but yes I do think the 7mm-08 will have better downrange energy & trajectory past 300 yards simply because you can load heavier bullets of the same type in the 7-08 than the 270win.
An example would be partitions,the heaviest in 270 is 160 grains but in 7mm it is 175 grains.

I'll let you do the maths or check it out if your keen enough but in reality there is not enough in it to worry about but suffice to the 7mm-08 does have a slight edge.

Tumbo, not necessarily true if comparing a short action 7-08 to a long action 270. Start loading the longer bullets in a 7-08 and they eat up case capacity that is not at a premium in the stubby, short, fat ugly case. Why is it that you 7-08 junkies ignore the fine 150 grain bullets available in the 270 that can be pushed substancially faster than a 160 out of a short action 7-08? My one venture into the 7-08 enterprise showed me that often the cartridge does not live up to claims made here and in loading manuals. I sold it and got a better cartridge, a 7x57.

Go to a large sporting goods store in your area and look at the factory loads on the shelf. See which is better represented, the .270 or the 7/08.

Take a box of .270 cartridges and a box of 7/08 ones and hold the two boxes in your hands. See which one "speaks" to you more. Do the same with a single cartridge of each.

Since they are so nearly the same, it comes down to which one gives you the greater pleasure to handle and shoot.

For me, I'd choose the .270.

Don't be mislead by the charts posted above. Take a look at the ballistic coefficient for the bullets shown, you'll notice the loads for the .270 have significantly reduced BC compared to the 7mm-08 loads, meaning the bullets are going to be less efficient in flight.

In order to gain an accurate understanding between the two rounds, you must compare loads with the same design and weight bullets. You will see the .270 pull ahead again, because at 140gr., the .270 bullet wil be longer than it's 140gr. 7mm counterpart, giving it more stability and better aerodynamics.

For example, comparing a 140gr. Fail Safe in the .270 to a 140gr. Fail Safe in a 7mm-08 shows the .270 starting with 2920fps and the 7-08 at 2760fps. Not very significant, but when you compare apples to apples, the .270 is still moving at 1800fps at 500 yards, and the 7-08 is moving along at 1645fps. Still not a massive difference, but a difference nonetheless.

This load, sighted for 200 yards, will drop 45.7 inches in a .270, while a 7mm-08 will drop 53.2 inches. Again, that's wayyy too much bullet drop for most hunters to hold over, but the .270 is still on top.

In terms of energy delivery, again the .270 is ahead right out of the muzzle with 2650ft/lbs. and the 7-08 trails it with 2360ft/lbs. At 500 yards, the .270 retains 1000ft/lbs, the 7-08 retains 840ft/lbs.

So the .270 has a slight edge in a toe-to-toe battle against the 7-08, but there's more. A 140gr. bullet in .277 caliber will have a higher sectional density than the same bullet in .284 caliber, again, due to the extra length. What this means in terms of terminal performance is better penetration from the .277 bullet compared to its fatter, stubbier .284 cousin.

What does all this mean? The .270 is just a little ahead of the 7-08 with bullets of the same design and weight.

If you were to compare 130gr. bullets of like design, the .270 would still win. Likewise when comparing 150gr. bullets, in fact, the 150gr. bullet in a .270 would be only slightly below a 160gr. bullet in a 7mm-08 in terms of sectional density, but it would move much faster as the longer 160gr. bullet begins to occupy valuable powder space within the 7mm-08 case.

In reality, the differences aren't that great. Most people aren't comfortable with a 300 yard shot, nevermind a 500 yard shot. Both rounds have plenty of energy at 300 yards to drop medium game in a heartbeat, and have done so for many years. Either round would be a competent choice.

You can even add several similar round to the list if you really wanted, including the .280, .308, and .30-06, because in the end, a well-placed shot counts for more than terminal ballistics. More power isn't going to make game think "Well, he's carrying a hell of a gun, so maybe I should just drop dead now".

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
(tried to post it like First Shot - how'd you do that!?)

1 Once you get the comparison up...do a screen print.

2 Paste the screen print into MS Paint.

3 Save the Paint file as a .JPG

4 Resize the .JPG for internet.

5 Upload file to internet.

6 Post on thread.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

quote:

Originally posted by MikeyB:
In reality, the differences aren't that great. Most people aren't comfortable with a 300 yard shot, nevermind a 500 yard shot. Both rounds have plenty of energy at 300 yards to drop medium game in a heartbeat, and have done so for many years. Either round would be a competent choice.

............because in the end, a well-placed shot counts for more than terminal ballistics.

Well said. That's what I was saying when I said there wasn't a spits worth of difference that game could tell.

The bottom line is that the 270 is a long action based on a 30-06 case and therefore has more case capacity. So everything else being equal, bullet make & type, powder, brass, primer, etc., the 270 will hold more powder and therefore shoot a bit faster and flatter than a 7MM-08....Period!

Here is the 140 Accubond comparison from the Federal site.


Here are the actual differences out to 300Yds


Like MickyB said, at reasonable shooting distances, the differences are academic. That is unless you consider 150FPS and 200 FtLbs "substantial"

I like a short action and wanted something a little bit different.....so I got the 7MM-08

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

For all around whitetail hunting, I would give the 7-08 the edge. If you will shoot 300+yds very often, I'd rather have the 270. However, in actual field performance, the differences are slight either way--2MG

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbo:

quote:

Not a huge difference, but please don't tell me the 7-08 is better than the 270 in downrange energy or trajectory!

Woods

I was refering to the chart above when I commented but yes I do think the 7mm-08 will have better downrange energy & trajectory past 300 yards simply because you can load heavier bullets of the same type in the 7-08 than the 270win.
An example would be partitions,the heaviest in 270 is 160 grains but in 7mm it is 175 grains.

I'll let you do the maths or check it out if your keen enough but in reality there is not enough in it to worry about but suffice to the 7mm-08 does have a slight edge.

Well, I'll do the math then. Using the Nosler #5 manual for maximum velocity in each caliber and a ballistics program comparing the 270 with a 160 gr partition and a 7-08 with at 175 gr partition with 200 yard zero at 5000' altitude:

270 with 160 partition @ 2828 fps, BC .434, SD .298, 300 yd energy 1919 fp, 500 yd drop 42.3"

7-08 with 175 partition @ 2612 fps, BC .492, SD .310, 300 yd energy 1893 fp, 500 yd drop 47.7"

Now, we can say that with careful reloads you can better the max velocities listed in the manual and that's true. But as pointed out above the 270 would gain more by pushing past max loads with the heavier bullets because of its larger case capacity.

I'm not saying the 7-08 is a bad caliber and I do think it has it's place but I do think that saying it has an edge over the 270 is like saying a 30-06 has an edge over a 7 mag - ain't so! JMO

Woods

I was talking about energy figures out to 500 yards why didn't you include them to that range???

The figures below are from the nosler no.4 balistics table

270 win mv of 2800fps 160 partition energy at 500 yards = 1207ft-lbs

7mm-08 mv of 2600fps 175 partition energy at 500 yards = 1289 87 ft-lbs to the 7-08 not worth worring about but it does proove that the 7mm-08 is up there with the 270 at longer ranges & does indicate that the 270win doesn't perform any better at longer ranges.

I shoot heavy bullets from my 7mm-08 including 162 sst's & 162 a max,168 & 175 matchkings & do not consider it disadvantageous at all especially with powders avaliable today & personally I think any of these bullets would equal anything fired from a 270win after 300 yards or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbo:
Woods


7mm-08 mv of 2600fps 175 partition energy at 500 yards = 1289

personally I think any of these bullets would equal anything fired from a 270win after 300 yards or so.

Again, I disagree. My hunting load shoots a 140 gr Barnes TSX @ 3170 fps, with a BC of .497 that equals 1793 fp at 500 yards and a 31.2" drop with a 200 yard zero. I don't believe you can equal that in a 7-08.

Tumbo

I really don't mind if you like the 7-08 and I have nothing against it, I just feel compelled to answer when you make statements that aren't true IMO. Yes, it is true that if you shoot one bullet in 7-08 (175 grain) that it will retain more energy than a 160 gr 270 bullet only at 500 yards even though it drops 6" more. I would bet that if I handloaded a 270 with 160 partition I could get it to exceed the energy you talk about cause I could seat the bullet deeper as needed and not take up powder space.

Look this could go on forever, shoot your 7-08, but please don't tell me its better in any way than my 270 (except maybe recoil)

Have a nice day, I'm done.

A matter of interest to me is what powders were you using to get 2600 fps with the 175 grain Nosler partition. My 7-08 was a Model 7SS with a 20 inch barrel and the longest bullet I could reasonably use in it was the 150 grain ballistic tip. The 175 grain Hornady Spire point's base reached way down into the case and I was unable to get more than 2450 fps with it and I tried several powders including a couple of ball powders. Once again comparing a 160 grain semi-spitzer to a 175 grain spitzer is hedging your bet. Another thing since most of us don't shoot at game animals past 350 yards why quote figures for 500?

Some of you guys must be nuts!

How in the world can you compare a 2" case to a 2.5" case? Lets talk handloads, and handloads only. After all this site is called accuratereloading, isn't it? In similar bullet weights, the 270 has the edge in BC, if that is important to the guys who need something to tout for their favorite cartridge. I shoot a 130 grain Nosler Ballistic tip @3250fps, out of my 700 Sendero. Where in the heck does that leave the 7mm-08 in comparison. Look the 7mm-08 is ok, if you need a trendy short action, and as someone said, a well placed bullet with either, the critter won't know the difference, and thats true. What gauls me, is all these short case guys saying their cartridge performs as well as the longer case, bull! Especially in a short action, where the powder capacity is reduced!

Jerry

Woods

Perhaps you are right?,sure the 270 has the edge in close but at longer ranges i'm not so sure,with 7mm bullets having some of the highest BS's around starting with the 162 a-max with a BC of .625,162 sst BC of 550,the 175mk BC of over .600 & the 150 TSX BC of .529 ect

rickt300

I shoot silhouette with my 7-08 so thats why I play around with heavy bullets to knock the
rams at 500 yards.

I've got some 175 match kings loaded up with reloader 19 which is supposed to give me around 2630fps but I havn't chrono'd it yet.
W760 is giving me 2755fps from the 168 match kings.

The other powder that is giving me good results is ADI's AR02209.

I dont usually load looking for top velocity but accuracy is more important.

jerry, you said you get 3250 from a 130 nbt. where did you get these numbers from, a book or a chrono. I HAVE loaded the .270 for some years i have never get that with a 130, shot over my chrono. not even with 4831 or RL-19 loaded to max. we usually get around 2950 to 3100 from a 22 in. and don't talk about capacity. lets talk about burn rates like RL-15 in a 7-08. with a 140. 2960 from a 24 in rem. thats 10 grains heaver than a 130 .277 read the facts at the range, not a book. I stayed with my 7-08. better round. I SOLD my .270

Put 270 and 7mm-08 on pices of paper. Draw one out. Go hunting..the deer will not know the difference.

I personally would handle as many guns in 270 and 7mm-08 as possible and buy the one that fits/feels best. That will give the best rifle to hunt with. Either cartridge will get the job done on deer or elk.

Spend time handling different guns and you will soon discover which one you like.

Too many people buy guns based on cartridges, I think you should buy the gun first and any number of cartridges will do the job.

Thanks for all the info I bought a 270 last weekend.

Well Mark - I guess that pretty well settles it. Great pick, enjoy!

If you reload, I would take a serious look at the new barnes 110gr TSX bullet. It should work extremely well on deer/antelope size game with a flatter trajectory out to 300 yards.

There is only one logical answer to this debate. Tell the vendor you wish to use the try before you buy policy and take the one that shoots the best. Both very good rounds that will serve you well.

Vines:

Where have you been getting your information. I have NEVER seen any loads ANYWHERE that show a 130 grain bullet traveling 3250 in a 270 Winchester. By the statement you made, I can only guess you have very limited experience with the 270, and probobly handloading as well.

Comparing a 22" to a 24" barrel, is it surprising 100fps more can be reached. I have 3, 270's all have 24"+ barrels, and yes my cronograph's work fine! With my 2, 24"guns 3100fps+ is the rule with IMR4350 and IMR4831. In my 26" gun 3250 is the norm with IMR4831. I have never used H4831, nor have I used RL-19, RL-22 works better.

Jerry

vines

This load is close to max but was shot in a Sako 22" Model 75, 3209 fps with a 140 gr TSX



Have shot several loads with the 130 grain at 3300 fps or greater. However, try to keep the 140 going at 3150 and the 130 moving at 3250.

Like Jerry, using IMR4831 & IMR4350. RL22 gets good velocity but not accuracy in my gun. I can't imagine a 7-08 matching the ballistics I'm getting in my 270. If I wanted a rifle that kicked less then I wouldn't hesitate to buy the lesser caliber (7-08) for deer hunting.

Whitetails and antelope are easy to kill, it really doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference what you shoot them with. The difference between a .270, 7-08, 7x57, .280 really isn't even measurable. Me, I like the 7x57 but it isn't any better than the rest, for that matter I have 12 straight deer that didn't take a step when shot with a .220 Swift and a 55 Sierra. The fact is that almost amything is a good deer rifle.

Woods:

Thats a very nice group. I am sure there are lots of other guys who get similar results with the 270. The 270 Win. was my first high performance cartridge, prior to that I had an old model 99 Savage in 300 Savage, wish I still had that one. I wanted to buy a new rifle, so my uncle suggested the 270, he felt it was a better all around cartridge for hunting in the west, California at that time, late 60's. He really liked the 7X64, but felt we couldn't get ammo easily, and the 280 Rem, was loaded way down for his taste. Since then I have worn that first 270 out, took about 5,000 rounds. Guess I have loaded a few 270's. One thing is for sure, experience is the answer to all these arguments.

If you got to look in a book, or quote some writer to make your point, you just don't know what you are about!

Jerry

Why would you build or buy a 7-08 with a 24 inch barrel for hunting? If the one trick it actually has going for it, the short action, is negated by a 24 inch barrel the question becomes Why? I'll admit the 7-08 is almost as good as the 7x57 but if your getting 2900 fps with a 140 grain bullet your pushing the PSI pretty hard and I can do the same with a 270 to get a bit over 3200 fps with a 130 in a 24 inch barrel.

ricket300

I cant understand why you would not want a 24 inch barrel on your 7mm-08 when that is the length where you get optium performance.

I've owned 3 rifles in 7mm-08 & once you get below a 22 inch barrel performance seems to drop off dramatically,my current tikka has a 600mm barrel(23.4 inch) I think that is optimal for the cartridge.

JERRY, I get those numbers from you in your last post. You SAID you was getting 3250 fps from your sendero 700. with a 130 N.B.T. and yes i have many years loading the .270 for my friends who don't know any better. We are only getting 3300 from a 7-mm REM. MAG. with a 140. I have been loading for 24 yrs

If all we care about is optimal barrel length and not portability and handiness then the only benefit to the 7-08 is it uses a few less grains of powder to reach it's max velocities, being less than the 270 with it's optimum barrel length at max velocities. A 270 with a 26 inch barrel can exceed 3200 fps with ease using a 130 grain bullet and 3000fps with a 150 grain bullet. While my 7x57 is a favorite I don't use it for the same things I use my 270 for, it gets most of the Whitetail deer hunting and hog hunting chores while the 270 goes after Mule deer and Antelope.

Vines:

I think you misunderstood my last comment! I wasn't talking about the numbers I had posted, but I was taking exception to your comment about what book I had been reading. In my 40+ years of reloading, I have never seen any data, in any book, for the 270 Win. and a 130 grain bullet, exceeding 3200fps. As you can see by the other posts, guys are getting what I get, and maybey then some. Look at that nice group Woods posted, and he has a 140 exceeding 3200fps. The guys who are talking longer barrel length, well they just make the 270 that much better, and as to BC in equal bullet weights the 270 excells there also.


Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Vines:

I think you misunderstood my last comment! I wasn't talking about the numbers I had posted, but I was taking exception to your comment about what book I had been reading. In my 40+ years of reloading, I have never seen any data, in any book, for the 270 Win. and a 130 grain bullet, exceeding 3200fps. As you can see by the other posts, guys are getting what I get, and maybey then some. Look at that nice group Woods posted, and he has a 140 exceeding 3200fps. The guys who are talking longer barrel length, well they just make the 270 that much better, and as to BC in equal bullet weights the 270 excells there also.


Jerry

Accurate has pressure tested data listed for Magpro that exceeds 3200 fps with a 24" barrel. I have personally shot this load out of my .270 and it reached advertised velocity.

-Lou

Hodgens 25th reloading manual has a load using H4831 that gets over 3200 fps. My rifle shoots one grain less powder than they list as max into 3 shot groups of 1/2 inch so thats what I use as my antelope load.

I haven't had a 7mm-08 but would like to get one one day. They are popular here (in Oz) for Metalic Sillouette. Tkhose long high BC 7mm bullets are grefat for knocking metal ramms (weighing 25kg) over at 500 yards. The rifles are usually heavy barrelled and the moderate recoil of a 08 case is favoured.

I do have a .270 Win (Winchester pre 64 M70 fwt) and it is a real gem. Shoots great too with the best .277 bullet made today 140 gr SPBT at just over 3,000 fps.



Range Traj Velocity Energy
Muzzle - 1.25" 3,025 2,844 flbs
100 yd + 2.4" 2,836 2,499 flbs
200 yd + 2.0" 2,654 2,109 flbs
300 yd - 3.3" 2,480 1,911 flbs
400 yd -14.3" 2,312 1,661 flbs

The 7mm-08 can never match the performance of the .270 Win in equivalent rifles. You'd need a .280 Rem to do that, it's a matter of physics. Ask Jack O'Connor.

Cheers & God bless,
Magnum308

quote:

The 7mm-08 can never match the performance of the .270 Win in equivalent rifles. You'd need a .280 Rem to do that, it's a matter of physics. Ask Jack O'Connor.

Very much true. I don't see it any other way. Then again I don't have 270 Winphobia.

I shoot a 23" Bullberry stainless Encore in 270 Win and don't need to worry about action length.

The question is what would you recommend. Well, I have owned both and prefer the 7mm08. I like the compact short action versus a long action. You can put a Barnes 140 TSX through any deer in the country with it. Before the TSX came out I did all my killing with the Sierra 160 HPBT and never had one to get away. I can't say anything bad about a 270 but I have a lot more good to say about the 7mm08.

BOTH!!!!!

I have a .270, and am dying to get a good 7-08.

Course, I also want a 300 Win Mag, 308, and a 6mm of some sort. That's the short list. I could go on and on about all of the things I want. But, couldn't we all???