quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Ha, I remember that movie. He wants a sniper rifle to pick off the Zodiac guy, so he picks a Win 458 with open sights. So much for Hollywood's acumen in firearms.

Reminds me of some book I read many years ago.

It was of some vigilante who wanted to get rid of criminals.

He used a 460 Weatherby Magnum for his sniping, because it was the most powerful rifle available!

Still pales in comparison to some one picking a Blaser instead of a real rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
We know that's a fake Bieber. Harry preferred a M70 African. Harry didn't dabble with Blasers.




Ain't no Beta Male genes in Clint's DNA.

I saw the Pic from Biebs and laughed. I saw the above pic and laughed harder......

On a side note, I will stick with what I have. I guess I am not cultured enough to own a Blaser

The battle rages on!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The battle rages on!

There is no battle with ludities and curmudgeons - they can never be educated in the way of reason and good German engineering

Or electric cars

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The battle rages on!

There is no battle with ludities and curmudgeons - they can never be educated in the way of reason and good German engineering

Or electric cars

Mike

That's priceless coming from someone who 1) thinks others consider him SMART simply for buying a Blazer, and 2) need's #1 to confirm his self image!



I can do this all day!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The battle rages on!

There is no battle with ludities and curmudgeons - they can never be educated in the way of reason and good German engineering

Or electric cars

Mike

That's priceless coming from someone who 1) thinks others consider him SMART simply for buying a Blazer, and 2) need's #1 to confirm his self image!



I can do this all day!

Is that young Elon Musk ?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Ha, I remember that movie. He wants a sniper rifle to pick off the Zodiac guy, so he picks a Win 458 with open sights. So much for Hollywood's acumen in firearms.

Reminds me of some book I read many years ago.

It was of some vigilante who wanted to get rid of criminals.

He used a 460 Weatherby Magnum for his sniping, because it was the most powerful rifle available!

Still pales in comparison to some one picking a Blaser instead of a real rifle!

My father had the first 80 or so of that series of books. The character name was Mack Bolan otherwise known as "The Executioner" which was the title of the first series. Before the .460 Weatherby he was using a Marlin 1885 in .444 as his sniper rifle. His side arms included a Beretta Brigider and a .44 Auto Mag. Apparently the series is still going strong with a few spin off series and over 600 titles published.


Every so often I think of selling most of my rifles and having just a pair of Ruger #1's, a .22, and and AR or even getting rid of the Ruger's to purchase an R8 synthetic model. With the release of a R8 rimfire kit I could get the serial number count to two. The Blaser receiver and an AR-15 lower and have access to most popular and effective rifle cartridges of hunting or defense. Still thinking. Not sure if I ever will.

dSMITH,

One thing is for certain, Blaser has "innovated" into a new platform every 10-15 years. I would be willing to be the R8 will probably be Dodo dead before 2025 maybe 2030 at the latest.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
dSMITH,

One thing is for certain, Blaser has "innovated" into a new platform every 10-15 years. I would be willing to be the R8 will probably be Dodo dead before 2025 maybe 2030 at the latest.

A consideration, for sure. However, many are still getting good service from the 93 system. A spare bolt head would be a good thing to have. If I did get a R8 I would choose 6.5x55 and 9.3x62 barrels as they are closest to my two Rugers which are .275 Rigby and .35 Whelen.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
dSMITH,

One thing is for certain, Blaser has "innovated" into a new platform every 10-15 years. I would be willing to be the R8 will probably be Dodo dead before 2025 maybe 2030 at the latest.

I doubt it. Blaser Usa folks have told me the r8 will be around for a long time. Anything new they want to do will probably happen in Mauser and Sauer platforms.

They will probably play around with news stocks ect.

Mike

"What is interesting about the Euro gun trade is that when compared to the US trade they Euros are innovating with new and progressive designs where the Americans are stuck and beholden to the old ( not necessarily bad) however the US gun trade is downgrading with each model range released. "

The new designs as Blaser, Merkel Helix are very popular among young hunters here in Sweden. I noticed at a gun auction the new design preowned rifles were selling at high price maybe 80% of new price then the older 1980-90s my generation quality rifles as Tikkakoski, Sako , Carl Gustaf, Husqvarna 1900 were sold at cheap bargain prices.

"We see trends down to cheaper builds and offerings and many have dropped or are dropping their premium lines while in Europe the high end market is where they are heading, perhaps it is because the ordinary middle class person in Europe no longer hunts and its only the very wealthy that can afford to hunt !

Its not just in rifles ! Euro scopes, binos, hunting clothing everything is very well made and very very expensive !"

In Scandinavia the situation for hunters are more similar to US or Australia than to the central european countries. Young blue collar workers buys the new design silly expensive rifles, Zeiss/Kahles/Swarowski riflescopes, nice trucks, electronic gear and clothes good job opportunitys and cheap loans. The majority of hunters are living in citys now as the majority of the population.

"I have several good European friends who are great guys and excellent hunters, but there is one thing that is true of virtually all European hunters: They don't actually shoot very much. That's not to say that they are not good marksmen, just that circumstances in Europe, including high ammunition costs and limited places to shoot, mean that European hunters simply don't have the opportunity to try out multiple guns under a wide variety of circumstances. Thus, European hunters are even more subject to advertising, hype, promotion, and fads than are American hunters who have more opportunity to actually try and use rifle systems. This observation, which I in no way mean as critical, is a preface to my comments on European rifle and scope designs."

We have good access to shooting ranges in Sweden, most have a running moose target, some 300m ranges and its possible to practice on your hunting ground. Yes ammo are very expensive the price for Swedish made Norma are the double in Sweden than in US, some less expensive brand are beguinning to be sold in stores.

"There is largely one thing that is driving the demand for rifle designs that lock the bolt directly to the barrel. That thing is the fact that in most European countries individuals are limited by law to the number of guns they may own and possess. With an interchangeable barrel design you can own several calibers but it only counts as one gun. Therefore, the popularity and demand for such guns."

Yes in Sweden we are limited to six hunting guns, so a inaccurate rifle who needs a gunsmith are just filling a place in the safe. The locking in the barrel also makes it possible to build rifle of a lighter material.


"If the need of speed of operation were a key factor in rifle design (such as when shooting at driven boar), then the most popular (non-self-loading) design would be the pump. European forests would be full of Remington 760's!"

Of cause it takes about a half minute for a moose to die by a perfect shot so you have plenty of time to reload. With an old mauser it may be stessful for a young unexperienced hunter to reload at the range for a running moose target. A pump is bad for shooting in prone, an European rifle must handle several different ways of hunting then an american can buy two cheap ones.

American rifles are often designed for US hunters i dont want a rifle in wrong caliber, fixed magasine, wrong handed, lawyer proof trigger, heavy, priced similar to a European quality rifle.

"I do plan to shoot my blaser a lot and if anything happens over next 10 years I will send it back to get fixed/replaced under warranty. I don’t think there are too many shot out blaser barrels - I am planning on having one of the few."

I was at a indoor range they had a r93 in 3006 as a loaner they said it had shot 20000 rounds still nice hunting accuracy but opened up a little then its hot.

"Saeed's rifles illustrate a problem with a rifle where locking lug recesses are in the barrel. Saeed has a pair 375/404 Jeffery Improveds. If he had a Blaser etc. how would he go, it would be a no go situation"

375 Blaser based on 404 Jeffrey
https://www.norma-ammunition.c...laser-mag---20295211

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
"I do plan to shoot my blaser a lot and if anything happens over next 10 years I will send it back to get fixed/replaced under warranty. I don’t think there are too many shot out blaser barrels - I am planning on having one of the few."

I was at a indoor range they had a r93 in 3006 as a loaner they said it had shot 20000 rounds still nice hunting accuracy but opened up a little then its hot.

Going to be near impossible for me to shoot out a blaser barrel.

Only issue I have had with blasers over 9 r8 and 4 k95 barrels is a k95 barrel in 270 has some corrosion on the extractor pin. No impact on accuracy and eventually I will send it back to get polished.

The barrels shoot great and easy to clean as they are removable. I can drop them in my ultrasonic when they eventually get dirty.

Replacing a barrel is very needed is a breeze too.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
"Saeed's rifles illustrate a problem with a rifle where locking lug recesses are in the barrel. Saeed has a pair 375/404 Jeffery Improveds. If he had a Blaser etc. how would he go, it would be a no go situation"

375 Blaser based on 404 Jeffrey
https://www.norma-ammunition.c...laser-mag---20295211

Here's an interesting part of Norma's description of the 375 Blaser cartridge:

"The 375 Blaser Magnum offers roughly 5% more energy while being a more gentle round to fire compared to the 375 H&H."

I wonder how they pull off that triumph of physics.

quote:

Originally posted by South Pender:

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
"Saeed's rifles illustrate a problem with a rifle where locking lug recesses are in the barrel. Saeed has a pair 375/404 Jeffery Improveds. If he had a Blaser etc. how would he go, it would be a no go situation"

375 Blaser based on 404 Jeffrey
https://www.norma-ammunition.c...laser-mag---20295211

Here's an interesting part of Norma's description:

"The 375 Blaser Magnum offers roughly 5% more energy while being a more gentle round to fire compared to the 375 H&H."

I wonder how they pull off that triumph of physics.

Putting a 1 Lb Mercury kick stiff in the stock

Mike

"The 375 Blaser Magnum offers roughly 5% more energy while being a more gentle round to fire compared to the 375 H&H."

Its not a lie its very subjective if a Blaser rifle would be more gentle than a Holland&Holland.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
"The 375 Blaser Magnum offers roughly 5% more energy while being a more gentle round to fire compared to the 375 H&H."

Its not a lie its very subjective if a Blaser rifle would be more gentle than a Holland & Holland.

Norma is not talking about the rifle in which the ammunition is fired, but rather about the cartridge itself. The 375 Blaser is available from Norma for any rifle for which it is chambered. The 375 Blaser cartridge is similar in concept to a blown-out 375 H&H case (although using the 404 Jeffery case as the starting point, rather than the belted magnum case) and has about the same overall length (2.82") as the H&H version. It has a 27° shoulder angle and comes very close in shape and capacity to the 375 Remington Ultra Magnum—although slightly smaller and less powerful than the 375 RUM. The 375 Blaser is very close ballistically to the older 375 Weatherby (not the 378 Wby.), and is not really much of a cartridge innovation.

Here are the comparative ballistics of the 375 Blaser and 375 H&H:

375 Blaser: 270 gr. bullet at a MV of 2756 fps and a ME of 4554 ft.-lbs.

375 H&H: 270 gr. bullet at a MV of 2690 fps and a ME of 4340 ft.-lbs. (These figures apply to most commercial .375 H&H ammunition.)

So there is the 5% increase in ME of the 375 Blaser.

Given the greater case capacity of the 375 Blaser vs. the 375 H&H, somewhat more powder is necessary to achieve the greater velocities. Since recoil energy is a function of (1) bullet weight, (2) MV, (3) powder-charge weight, and (4) rifle weight, there is no way (that I can see) that the .375 Blaser cartridge can generate less recoil than the .375 H&H in rifles of equal weight. Unless I’m missing something here (always possible), given the greater case capacity and higher MV of the Blaser round, it seems to me that its recoil, with the same weight bullet, must be greater than that of the H&H in rifles of equal weight. Here are the approximate comparative recoil energy values in a 9.5 lb. rifle--these values based on a 270-gr. bullet for both cartridges, case capacities, estimated corresponding powder charges, and published MVs:

375 Blaser: 48 ft.-lbs.

375 H&H: 43 ft-lbs.

Ouch!

Its not a question of fact its a question of believe, they cant sell any rifles if they say its just as good as a 100y old cartrigde.

quote:

Originally posted by South Pender:

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
"The 375 Blaser Magnum offers roughly 5% more energy while being a more gentle round to fire compared to the 375 H&H."

Its not a lie its very subjective if a Blaser rifle would be more gentle than a Holland & Holland.

Norma is not talking about the rifle in which the ammunition is fired, but rather about the cartridge itself. The 375 Blaser is available from Norma for any rifle for which it is chambered. The 375 Blaser cartridge is similar in concept to a blown-out 375 H&H case (although using the 404 Jeffery case as the starting point, rather than the belted magnum case) and has about the same overall length (2.82") as the H&H version. It has a 27° shoulder angle and comes very close in shape and capacity to the 375 Remington Ultra Magnum—although slightly smaller and less powerful than the 375 RUM. The 375 Blaser is very close ballistically to the older 375 Weatherby (not the 378 Wby.), and is not really much of a cartridge innovation.

Here are the comparative ballistics of the 375 Blaser and 375 H&H:

375 Blaser: 270 gr. bullet at a MV of 2756 fps and a ME of 4554 ft.-lbs.

375 H&H: 270 gr. bullet at a MV of 2690 fps and a ME of 4340 ft.-lbs. (These figures apply to most commercial .375 H&H ammunition.)

So there is the 5% increase in ME of the 375 Blaser.

Given the greater case capacity of the 375 Blaser vs. the 375 H&H, somewhat more powder is necessary to achieve the greater velocities. Since recoil energy is a function of (1) bullet weight, (2) MV, (3) powder-charge weight, and (4) rifle weight, there is no way (that I can see) that the .375 Blaser cartridge can generate less recoil than the .375 H&H in rifles of equal weight. Unless I’m missing something here (always possible), given the greater case capacity and higher MV of the Blaser round, it seems to me that its recoil, with the same weight bullet, must be greater than that of the H&H in rifles of equal weight. Here are the approximate comparative recoil energy values in a 9.5 lb. rifle:

375 Blaser: 48 ft.-lbs.

375 H&H: 43 ft-lbs.

Ouch!

They are peddling that trash to the "Smart" blaser owners. You and I are evidently not "Smart" enough to believe their propaganda.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
Its not a question of fact its a question of believe, they cant sell any rifles if they say its just as good as a 100y old cartrigde.

In other words, Nordic2, by lying about a dubious "new" cartridge (and it certainly appears to be a lie, from available evidence), they will sell more rifles?--that is, deliberately deceiving buyers into thinking the recoil of this cartridge will be less than it actually will be. I have no problem with any firearms or ammunition company developing new cartridges; their developments will be judged by the buying public and will ultimately succeed or fail largely on their merits, although hype and bumf will, unfortunately, play a part too. But outright, deliberate misinformation crosses a line in my opinion. I'm not sure who is to blame here--Blaser or Norma. Maybe both, as I guess both stand to gain financially from the 375 Blaser cartridge.

Anyone who has handloaded for large double rifle cartridges will attest to the fact that a cartridge loaded with Rel 15 will give less felt recoil for the same ballistics as one of the "H" powders. Not lies or hype...just is.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Anyone who has handloaded for large double rifle cartridges will attest to the fact that a cartridge loaded with Rel 15 will give less felt recoil for the same ballistics as one of the "H" powders. Not lies or hype...just is.

What's the reason for this?

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words if you accelerate the same mass of powder and projectile to the same velocity you will get the same recoil. Felt recoil can be different due to difference in the mass of the rifle and stock design. Not even Norma can beat Newton.

I have many large bore rifles, and do shoot them without any problems.

One of the absolutely worst kicking rifles I have ever shot was a Blaser in 9.3x64.

It had one of those utterly stupid stocks, and whacks me in the face each time I fired it.

Now to Norma and velocity.

I was sent 5 Mannlicher Luxus rifles, all brand new, and identical.

I was asked to install scopes on them, and sight them in.

They were all in 270 Winchester, and the ammo sent with them was Norma 150 grain SP.

I was so surprised of the velocity difference between them.

The velocity variation between the slowest rifle and the fastest one was over 150 fps!!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The energy and momentum balance equation of our system can be modulated for a given charge mass and bullet choice by changing the shape of the combustion chamber... to a limit !

From all that I've read, shape of the case has no appreciable effect on recoil. Recoil energy felt by the shoulder is a function of (a) bullet weight, (b) muzzle velocity, (c) powder-charge weight, and (d) rifle weight. Case shape can have some effect on accuracy, as the short-fat cases seem to do better in this regard, but this case shape seems not to have any effect on recoil. And it’s not hard to see why that is true.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
If Norma is claiming higher velocity and less recoil then they played with ballistic efficiency!

The Ballistic ( Thermodynamic) efficiency of the 375 Blaser is higher than the 375 H&H based on their claim.

Now about cartridge efficiency. The usual concept of efficiency (re internal ballistics) is as follows: Cartridge A is more efficient than Cartridge B if for a given bullet, A produces the same velocity as does B, but with a smaller powder charge than B. Or put another way, A produces higher velocity with a certain bullet than does B with the same weight of powder charge. We can reduce this comparative metric to a simple formula: velocity per grain of powder.

So let’s see whether the 375 Blaser is, in fact, more efficient than the 375 H&H. One QuickLOAD source indicates that the 375 Blaser gives a 300-gr. Bullet 2622 fps from a charge of 86.68 gr. of Norma MRP. This equates to 30.24 fps per grain of powder.

The Lyman 47th Reloading Handbook shows the 375 H&H getting 2617 fps with a 300-gr. bullet from a charge of 78.0 gr. of IMR4350. This equates to 33.55 fps per grain of powder. (The Nosler Reloading Guide shows 2600 fps from 78.0 gr. of W760, so similar results.) As for comparative recoil for these two instances (assuming a 9.5 lb. rifle): 375 H&H: 46.1 ft.-lbs. recoil energy, 17.67 fps recoil velocity; 375 Blaser: 49.69 ft.-lbs. recoil energy, 18.35 fps recoil velocity.

So which of the two cartridges is more efficient? The H&H gets the same result with less powder. (This is similar to the 30-06 vs. 308 Win. comparison; the 30-06 is larger and more powerful than the 308, but the 308 is more efficient, using less powder for comparable velocities.)

The 375 Blaser is certainly bigger than the H&H, but it’s hard to see it as being more efficient. Since the Blaser version is larger, it requires more powder than the H&H (and velocities will be higher), and recoil will necessarily be greater.

Edit: I should probably note that I'm not really criticizing the 375 Blaser cartridge. Although it really offers nothing new over the 375 Weatherby, 375 Ruger, or 375 RUM in terms of ballistic performance, it's a reasonable contribution, I guess, to the uber-375 (bigger than 375 H&H) cartridge arena. My critique is aimed at the claim of reduced recoil.

Edit 2: I discovered this interesting relationship dealing with ballistic efficiency in the AR Wildcats and Their Development sub-forum (posted by Von Gruff): The 4-to-1 Rule: Potential velocity increases at only 1/4 the rate of extra case volume, with both cartridges loaded to the same pressure. Seems about right.

The 375 Blaser will remain an oddity, End of story.

While anyone who owns a Blaser is mentally disturbed I think even Blaser owners would by far get the 375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
The 375 Blaser will remain an oddity, End of story.

While anyone who owns a Blaser is mentally disturbed I think even Blaser owners would by far get the 375 H&H.

Fixed the first part for ya. Completely agree with the mentally disturbed comment.

ALF, I don't think your definition of ballistic efficiency is one used by those who rate cartridges for efficiency. There's no way the average shooter can possibly know the "force impetus of the propellant and charge mass." And, to the average handloader, why does it matter whether we are dealing with a single- or double-base powder when considering which of two cartridges is more efficient in actual performance? I think that, for most shooters and handloaders, the fact that the 308 Win. can achieve the same velocity as the 30-06 with a smaller charge makes the former more efficient, regardless of the powder used--the 308 gets the job done with less fuel.

I don't think we need to have Norma's data re the chemistry of the powder used to conclude that the 375 Blaser cartridge, although more powerful, cannot be seen as more efficient than the 375 H&H. We have all the necessary data--muzzle velocity and powder-charge weight.

Perhaps in the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree about how we understand ballistic efficiency--what it means in real-world terms.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The argument came up that Norma was / is dishonest about the characteristics of the 375 Blaser when compared to say a 375 H&H.

They claim higher velocity but lower recoil or as they put it a more gentle shooting character ? is that possible ?

ALF, I don't much care how Norma gets its velocity figures for the 375 Blaser. The simple facts are: (1) the velocities are higher than those of the 375 H&H, and (2) they do it with a larger charge of powder than is used in the 375 H&H. So for a given bullet weight, say 300-gr., and rifle weight, say 9.5 lbs., the Blaser cartridge will produce more recoil velocity and energy than will the H&H. I don't think that there's any way around this. Choice of powder in this case is immaterial; what is relevant is that more of it is used in the Blaser cartridge than the H&H. Thus the total weight of the ejecta is greater in the Blaser and the bullet exits at a higher velocity. However, if someone can educate me about how these facts can be mitigated by some propellant-chemistry wizardry, I'm prepared to hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
So by the same analogy is Hornady dishonest when they claimed certain characteristics when they designed the 375 Ruger ( When compared to say the 375 H&H )?

That depends on what they claimed.

As for ballistic efficiency, I don't think your definition of ballistic efficiency is one used by most thoughtful handloaders or shooters generally. There's no way the average shooter can possibly know the "force impetus of the propellant and charge mass" or the "total potential energy of the charge." But he doesn’t need to. To the average handloader, it doesn’t matter whether we are dealing with a single- or double-base powder when considering which of two cartridges is more efficient in actual performance. I think that, for most shooters and handloaders, the fact that the 308 Win. can achieve the same velocity as the 30-06 with a smaller charge makes the former more efficient (in the sense that most handloaders would understand that term) regardless of the powder used. The 308 gets the job done with less fuel. The chemical nature of the propellant is pretty much immaterial. If the 308 gives a 180-grain projectile 2700 fps with 50 gr. of a single-based propellant (IMR 4350), whereas the 30-06 needs 54 gr. of a single-based powder (IMR 4350) or 54 gr. of a double-base powder (W 760), the 308 is more efficient in the metric understood by most handloaders.

ALF, we're using the term ballistic efficiency in two different ways. I understand the logic of the definition you have provided, but I'm using the term differently--to describe the practical effects of a bullet and powder charge on resulting velocity and energy--and the term "ballistic efficiency" has been used this way by many authors. Here are a couple of articles on ballistic (or cartridge) efficiency in the sense that I’ve been using the term. The table below is taken from the first of the two articles and shows the relative efficiency of several 7 mm. cartridges expressed as muzzle velocity per grain of powder burned.

https://www.rifleshootermag.co...tic-efficiency/83495

https://blog.westernpowders.co...artridge-efficiency/



So let’s leave it at that.

Back to the OP, I have a Heym SR-30 in 300 Win Mag. Waited about a year for it.. Used it in 2019 for elk. Took a nice 6x6 at approx 400 yards. It functions well and very accurate. The chamber seems a little large, but it headspaces on the belt..It will be my go to rifle for American game..Germans make excellent gear. I would recommend it to anyone interested. I think the reason it took so long as it is left handed. I used hand loads with 200 grain accubonds.