noise is not the issue here, what would suit my 300 win mag better? as i understand it, a silencer reduces 'kick' which is the primary domain of a muzzle brake. i am scared of reducing my rifles acuracy though. henc the question.... muzzle brake or silencer.
thanks alot!

Suppressor for sure! Look at the Ops Inc. 12th Model. The Ops Inc has 2 points of contact for improved accuracy. I have 8 suppressors on hunting rifles and like my two Ops Inc. the best. it really tames the recoil of the 300 Wm.

Perry

I have 2 Muzzel Brakes one on my 375 H&H and one on my 338 RUM. But I take them off when hunting.
They sure kill the recoil.

usually a supressor increases felt recoil due to the length of time to vent the gases

Over barrel silencer!
These devices all reduce recoil and muzzle blast. The fat ugly one is on a 303 Brit - it reduces recoil to the level of my 303-25 which also has a 'break'. The 303-25 break is the small one in the pic. It too, reduces muzzle blast and recoil but not to the same degree as the fat one. The third one is looks a heck better than the fat one. None of these devices prevent muzzle lift. They just reduce recoil and noise. They also extend the barrel length by the same amount as a regular break. The small one extends by 25mm. You can see by the position of the scope on the 303 Brit how mild the recoil is. Without the break, that scope would split my eyebrow!

Butchloc
That is actually 180* of the truth. Because of the gases being burned up there is significantly less recoil when the bullet leaves the tube, i.e. no fuel.

Perry

quote:

That is actually 180* of the truth. Because of the gases being burned up there is significantly less recoil when the bullet leaves the tube, i.e. no fuel.

I'm not sure if I understand?

My understanding is that the muzzle gasses contribute some 20% to the recoil. A suppressor or muzzle break redirects those gasses rearward which effectively reduces recoil by that amount. All I know is that the recoil reduction is very noticeable. If someone told me it was a 40% reduction in felt recoil I would accept it - it does seem that much but that could also be just an impression.

Because of my experience with being in the vicinity of a muzzle breaked rifle being fired, I tend to promote suppressors or those simple little devices I have on my rifles - if you could get one!

It seems that this is a 'how long is a piece of string' kinda question!!! I was at the local gunsmith yesturday, i posed the question to him.... he happened to have a 308 there which he had just fitted a silencer/suppressor to. I shot the rifle with and without and what a difference!!!! After a 6 shot string, the silencer was hot, very hot, so as i am understanding things, it is not the best option for me because i shoot alot.... eg at least 120 rounds a week. 303guy has mentioned percentages of recoil reduction and such, but is it not more important what the shooter feels? in all your experiances, what makes the rifles recoil FEEL least? thanks for all your imput, much appreciated!

I have a Kleingunther muzzle brake on my 7mag, which reduces the recoil to 223 levels. It's the only gun I have where I can watch the deer fall, through the scope, after I pull the trigger.

A suppressor does not redirect gases it burns them up so you don't have hot gases leaving the barrel. As a result there is no/very little pressure/recoil felt.
As for heat that is just part of it, just like a hot barrel. the difference is that the baffles in a suppressor never touch the bullet so unless you heat the gun to a point of melting the metal it is not a real concern other than to the touch. All my cans get hot but unless you shoot enough to melt metal the can is fine.
Another thing I like about suppressors is that since they burn up most of a cartridges fuel and the bullet leaves the can untouched, if it is a well made can, the round becomes more efficient and usually accuracy is improved.
In my 308 with 165gr bullets and 300wm with 180gr bullets you can watch the bullets hit the targets.
Perry

quote:

In my 308 with 165gr bullets and 300wm with 180gr bullets you can watch the bullets hit the targets.

That's the part that got me interested initially. I was going to build a compensator just to prevent muzzle lift but then the noise factor became an issue, so I leaned towards the suppressor. Funny thing, my hornet with its very low recoil to start of with, still has a gentle push and muzzle rize. I am busy remaking the baffles to correct that, now that I know my experimental baffle actually acts like a jet engine! (I tried a few styles before I found the most effective one).

#1. A mussel break should reduce recoil more than a suppressor.

#2. There are alot of legal stuff that you have to deal with if you have a silencer. Be sure you are legally able to do what you want to do. I can (and do) own in my state, but I can not hunt with it.


#3. If you can not handle the recoil of your gun, get a smaller or heavier gun. I hate people at the range with mussle breaks. Man up.

quote:

I hate people at the range with mussle breaks.

Well now, I was just politely refraining from saying that! But since it has been said, let me say it again - I hate a muzzle break at the range or anywhere in my vicinity!

quote:

#1. A mussel break should reduce recoil more than a suppressor.

#2. There are alot of legal stuff that you have to deal with if you have a silencer. Be sure you are legally able to do what you want to do. I can (and do) own in my state, but I can not hunt with it.

This is where my creation comes into play. It is not a suppressor but it does reduce muzzle blast! I do not know how much it reduces recoil but it sure makes my rifle pleasant to shoot. It just does not eliminate muzzle lift. (Not altogether).

ddunn, could you enlighten me on the legal requirements for suppressors and muzzle breaks in your state? (If you happen to have the info available off hand, that is).

ddunn
Why should a m.b. reduce recoil more then a supp.?

The legal aspects of owning and using a suppressor are not a problem or even a hassle. You pay the 200.00 stamp fee make, copies of it and put them in all your hunting bags, vehicles etc.. and go shooting.

Perry

I'm a stamp collector. Had I started 2+ decades ago I would have better hearing today and a shoulder that hurt less.

There are a few political jurisdictions that make Class 3 ownership harder then it should be in the USA. If your local CLEO is an anti-gun politican, use the TRUST or LLC route. That will also allow you to "share" your class 3 items legally with your kids, wife, friends, etc. with minor paperwork maintanence.

Silencers from a modern manufacturer with proper manufacturering machines and materials can make an effective suppressor that is relatively lightweight, small, and very durable. Yes, they cut recoil, muzzle blast, and muzzle flip.

OPS Inc and AWC make good suppressor but, they are heavy. AAC (Advanced Armament) and SureFire make effective, durable, lightweight suppressors. KAC (Knight's) make good stuff too but, it's heavy.

With a suppressor you atre trying to prevent the implosion that causes the BANG when the bullet leaves the barrel. You must deal with the exhuast gas velocity, gas volume, the heat that creates the imploding volume, and ejected material from the cartridge. There is noting you can do about the projectile leaving at supersonic velocity.

Yes, suppressor get HOT. They ensure the complete burn of unburned powder, capture the flame at the muzzle, and cool the hot gasses. More burning payload? Faster heat up in the suppressor.

In terms of getting hot, yes they get really hot if you shoot much!!! If you handle the suppressor, you either use gloves or nurse blisters. There isn't much room in between.

If a suppressor can take FULL-AUTO fire from a belt fed machinegun or multiple high capacity magazines, you aren't going to break it with a bolt action rifle. I have one rated for the 338 Lapua Magnum so they can be built to take the stress of the magnum rifles pressure wave at the muzzle.

You want to balance:

• total weight (who wants a 3 pound lump on the end of their barrel?)
  
• volume (who wants a 3 liter soda bottle size thing on the end of their barrel?)
  
• length (try putting an 8+ inch stick in the bore of your favorite "unloaded" rifle and walk around your house!)

Modern suppressor designs will give you good suppression (+30dB) in a small volume (1.5 inch tubes ~6 inches past the muzzle) and will weigh in the 20 to 30 ounce range (magnum rated rifle cans) range.

I have an AAC SCAR-H SD which is a great choice on a bolt action rifle because:

• It is reflexed back over the barrel for minimal added length
  
• Uses Inconel for high durability in the abrasive and errosive environments you find in Short Barrel Rifles and magnum rifles
  
• And it has an indexed Quick Detach mount to minimize Point Of Impact shifts in high precision rifles when you mount and dismount the can.

Suppressors reduce recoil not because they "burn up the gasses" but because they allow the gasses to expand prior to exiting the barrel. This reduces the gas velocity when it exits the barrel, which is what reduces recoil. Brakes (not breaks!) redirect the high velocity gas in directions not in-line with the bore, that's how they reduce recoil.

The amount of recoil reduction depends roughly upon the ratio of bullet weight versus powder weight. A .257 Weatherby benefits more from a brake or suppressor because the powder charge is close to the bullet weight (100-grain bullet and 75 grains of powder or 1.33:1). A .303 would benefit much less (180-grain bullet and 45 grains of powder for 4:1).



.

quote:

Brakes (not breaks!) redirect the high velocity gas in directions not in-line with the bore, that's how they reduce recoil.

I had the idea that in the case of a reflex suppressor, muzzle blast gasses are redirected reward, imparting a forward thrust on the primary baffle which counteracts recoil. The rearward moving gasses are now somewhat expanded so have a lesser rearward thust effect and gasses escaping the baffles forward are slowed to the extent that rearward thrust is minimal, with a net recoil counteracting effect. Meaning that it is not only the removal of the recoil effect of the ejecta but a counteraction of the total recoil - exactly the same way a muzzle blast intensifier ... err ... I mean muzzle brake does.

quote:

A .303 would benefit much less (180-grain bullet and 45 grains of powder for 4:1).

Make that 35grs of powder. I have no idea how much reduction I am getting, only that this rifle is real sweet to shoot with (with the scope brought rearward for better shooter comfort). How can one actually measure recoil? For now, all I have is 'impression'. I do not need to hold the rifle firmly into my shoulder to shoot. All I do is get my eye relief right and shoot - no forehead smack! It's great! And I can watch the bullet strike - but there is a little muzzle lift.

quote:

I have a Kleingunther muzzle brake on my 7mag, which reduces the recoil to 223 levels. It's the only gun I have where I can watch the deer fall, through the scope, after I pull the trigger.

I read your post, thought it impressive, then forgot! That is impressive! What does it do to muzzle blast? Do you have pics you can post?

quote:

... 6 inches past the muzzle ...

Mine extends no more than a regular muzzle break. One inch. It is not silent by any means, but it sure helps!

I shoot rifles with and without silencers and muzzle brakes. Muzzle brakes are usually more effective at reducing recoil than silencers. While a silencer is going to provide a surface (the baffles) to push against, the gases eventually end up going straight forward out of the muzzle. A good muzzle brake vents gases back at an angle, this works better than almost any silencer.

On the other hand, silencers add more weight than most muzzle brakes. My 2” x 18” silencer is much more effective at reducing recoil on my 510 whisper due to its 1.9 pound weight and large baffles than the 4 inch wide muzzle brake I made for it. But muzzle brakes used on 50 BMG rifles are more effective at taming recoil than silencers due to the very large volume of gas that passes through, according to the opinions of the few people I have heard about shooting suppressed 50 BMG rifles.

I have three rifle with muzzle brakes, the brakes are on those rifles because they really help ( in two cases anyway) me deal with the recoil which can cause problems with a bulged disk in my neck. Sometimes you just have to live with the guy at the other bench using a muzzle brake.

Ranb

There are many misconceptions posted here about suppressors. I am going to attempt to dispell what I believe are misconceptions at best and deciet at worst. A couple of ya'll are spot-on, and obviously know your shit.

Suppressors redirect the gasses, they do not "burn them off". Suppressors made of steel do get hot. Lately I have been spending much time in the shop of a class II manufacturer and have learned to listen.

Suppressors threaded to the muzzle add weight in the wrong place, WILL CHANGE YOUR POINT OF IMPACT, and eventually you will hit the baffles unless you check them for tightness after every few shots.

Suppressors made with a carbon fiber shell do not get hot even under sustained full auto fire.

Ya'll need to check out shootersdepot.com

I have been a machinist for 16 years and worked in tool & die for 4. I know enough about guns and metals to know when I am being bull$hitted.
George knows suppressors and NFA weapons.

If a person can legally purchase a handgun they can also purchase a suppressor or a NFA regulated device.

George has a system that adds a heat shield to your barrel and the suppressor conects to the shield. Their exteriors are composites made from carbon fibers. Leave the suppr on when shooting varmints . Remove the suppr when hunting regulated game. The heat shield may be left in place all the time.

George;s design uses the entire length of the shield as the suppressor and as a break. It makes a .308 like shooting a 22 rimfire.

Any of you guys in the southern part of TEXAS(and you know who you are) need to visit Shooters Depot in Corpus Christi and learn before you start running at the mouth about suppressors.. Misinformation is the leading cause to often quoted BS.

Andy B

yup those guys know their stuff the carbon fiber is the way to go

As I keep reading this thread over and over, I continue to get irritated.

Muzzle blast is two fold. The loud pop heard is the air in front of the bullet being compressed and forced out the muzzle. The baffles in a suppressor redirect and break up this air.

Muzzle flash is caused by the rapid burning of excess powder as it hits the additional oxygen outside the barrel.

Inconel, Monel, Hastalloy and the likes are great high temperature alloys used in jet and rocket engine nozzles and some downhole tooling applications in the oil field. They are difficult to machine, very expensive, and add weight to a suppressor that is unnecessary.

Hunting of game animals (other than varmints) with firearms utilizing suppressors is illegal in Texas PERIOD.

I didn´t feel like reading the whole thread so here is my version: I use a suppressor on my 6.5x55 do to health reasons (slipped disc in my neck). The rifle no longer has any recoil to speak of.

If I needed to kill recoil I´d go with a suppressor -ugly as hell but it works.

Because i was treading my barrel anyway, i ended up getting both a suppressor and a m brake on my 300 win mag. What a change!!! I dont want to stir the pot, and do appreciate all the posts on this tread, but my personal opinion now that i have tried both on the same rifle, there is little or no difference between the two... this been said, this is how i percieve the recoil on the rifle and i am sure that if tested with the right equipment one would see a few percent difference between them. I must aggree, THE NOISE FROM THE BRAKE IS HUGE!!!!! but i am normally the only person at the range so it does not really matter! thanks again all! i will try post pictures today!

Thanks for the interesting feedback jasonpe! Looking forward to the pictures.

Would you rather have a huge fireball burn in fresh oxygen at the muzzle of your rifle and create a larger gas volume for the boom or, would you rather have it burn in the turbulence of the baffle stack? You really want to manage the heat and gas volume in a suppressor. A good one will do that and kill the collapsing boom of the hot gas at the muzzle.

The larger the volume of the collapse at the muzzle the louder the boom.

In tactical applications, muzzle flash is a bad thing. Even if you don't shoot at night, a good muzzle flash in a Meth lab will ruin your day.

drew

pm sent