Does anyone on this collection of medium bore threads have any articles, pictures etc. of the 338 Norma Magnum, either by itself, or juxtaposed against the 338 Lapua Magnum.

Thanks in advance.

That isn't a 308 Norma Magnum case. It doesn't have a belt.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
That isn't a 308 Norma Magnum case. It doesn't have a belt.

The 338 Norma is a "short Lapua," both built on the Rigby case, .589".

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
That isn't a 308 Norma Magnum case. It doesn't have a belt.

You are correct, sir. The .308 Norma has a belted case that is virtually identical to that of the 7mm Remington and .338 Winchster. However, the .338 Norma is a horse of a different color.

According to Wikipedia, as compared to a .338 Lapua a ".338 Norma Magnum cartridge utilizes a shorter case (about 63.5 mm (2.5 in)) with less taper and a slightly sharper shoulder angle with a slightly longer neck, resulting in about 6.5% less case capacity".

quote:

resulting in about 6.5% less case capacity".

Looks more like 15% to my calibrated eye balls.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:

quote:

resulting in about 6.5% less case capacity".

Looks more like 15% to my calibrated eye balls.

AMmo guide, using their formula,
lists 338 Lapua at 112 grain water capacity and 338 Norma at 105 grain water.
So someone gives up 50-100 fps maximum potential in order to use a standard length action. The basic Rigby case underlies both and makes both wonderful designs.

The powder capacity suggests slower powders, which means longer barrels for full burns. But the 338 Norma might try one notch faster powder than Lapua and perhaps aim at a 22-24" barrel in a lighter rifle.

Was fortunate enough to have spent a day with the designer of the cartridge a couple of years ago.

The idea was to throw a heavier, more aerodynamic projectile from a case that would generate less recoil moment. Results are pretty fantastic.

The designer, Jimmy Sloan, is a self-taught, very thorough genius, and a most personable fellow!

General Dynamics has just announced a light weight, belt fed machine gun in this chambering. Could provide the teams with a man portable anti-materiel weapon with much greater reach than 7,62. Nothing quite like an M60 (in weight) with the effectiveness of a 50.

Actually, the 338 Norma looks like it would be a good candidate to neck up into a 35-338 Norma wildcat. It would be very similar to a 35-375 Ruger wildcat but with a better neck length.

Barstooler

quote:

General Dynamics has just announced a light weight, belt fed machine gun in this chambering.

Damn. As soon as they militarise a calibre, some idiot over here will want to ban it for sporting use.

From talking to Jimmy, I suspect his development was originally aimed at the 2000 yard sniper rifle to begin with.

BTW: He has already done .358 Norma Mag experiments.

Looks and acts an awful lot like the .330 Dakota.

quote:

AMmo guide, using their formula,
lists 338 Lapua at 112 grain water capacity and 338 Norma at 105 grain water.
So someone gives up 50-100 fps maximum potential in order to use a standard length action. The basic Rigby case underlies both and makes both wonderful designs.

Hey Tan,

Actually – at least according the v3.6 of QuickLOAD, the 338 Lapua Magnum case has a 108.0grs water capacity while the 338 Norma Magnum case has a 111.0grs water capacity. The Norma Magnum case isn’t as thick walled as the Lapua Magnum case plus it has a 0.571” shoulder diameter vis-à-vis the Lapua Magnum’s thicker case walls.

Anyway, I ran some QL scenarios by loading both cartridges with the 1.736” long 300gr SMK bullet and changing their COAL to determine how they’d compare…

At the 3.681” COAL (the design specification), the .338 Norma Magnum will have a 0.545” bullet seating depth with a 0.295” shank seating depth; the shoulder to case mouth length is 0.611” while the shoulder/neck junction to case mouth is 0.342” length. The usable case capacity in this configuration is 100.393grs water.

At the 3.600” COAL, the .338 Norma Magnum will have a 0.626” bullet seating depth with a 0.376” shank seating depth; the shoulder to case mouth length is 0.611” while the shoulder/neck junction to case mouth is 0.342” length. The usable case capacity in this configuration is 98.555grs water.

At the 3.400” COAL, the .338 Norma Magnum will have a 0.826” bullet seating depth with a 0.576” shank seating depth; the shoulder to case mouth length is 0.611” while the shoulder/neck junction to case mouth is 0.342” length. The usable case capacity in this configuration is 94.016grs water.

At the 3.681” COAL (the CIP specification), the .338 Lapua Magnum will have a 0.779” bullet seating depth with a 0.529” shank seating depth; the shoulder to case mouth length is 0.563” while the shoulder/neck junction to case mouth is 0.327” length. The usable case capacity in this configuration is 92.076grs water.

At the 3.600” COAL, the .338 Lapua Magnum will have a 0.860” bullet seating depth with a 0.610” shank seating depth; the shoulder to case mouth length is 0.563” while the shoulder/neck junction to case mouth is 0.327” length. The usable case capacity in this configuration is 90.245grs water.

So if QL is correct regarding the NM’s case capacity, it looks like it’ll outdo the LM in every COAL scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
From talking to Jimmy, I suspect his development was originally aimed at the 2000 yard sniper rifle to begin with.

BTW: He has already done .358 Norma Mag experiments.

Mike,

I understand that Mr. Sloan has developed a .375 caliber cartridge based upon the the shortened Rigby case. Do you perchance know whether he used the same length case or a longer case?

Thanks,

"Actually – at least according the v3.6 of QuickLOAD, the 338 Lapua Magnum case has a 108.0grs water capacity while the 338 Norma Magnum case has a 111.0grs water capacity. The Norma Magnum case isn’t as thick walled as the Lapua Magnum case plus it has a 0.571” shoulder diameter vis-à-vis the Lapua Magnum’s ticker case walls."

338 Norma volume data in v3.6 QuikLOAD are wrong! I have both cases and just checked. More powder(used H-4831)fits in 338 Lapua case. 338 norma is also heavy and strong case (308.8 grains), a lot heavier than, say 338 RUM.

mfromyu,

how much powder did the Lapua hold as well as the Norma?

CPOWard,

Will ask him.

Thanks Mike.

I just measured them using the H-4831 by filling cases to the top of the mouth. 338 Lapua contained 111.5 grain and 338 Norma 100.8 grain of mentioned powder. 338 Lapua case weighted 344.7 grain and 338 Norma weighted 315.2 grain. Both cases were primed with Federal 215 gold medal primers.

Lawn Dart,

I own one and it truly is VERY accurate with sierra 300 gr SMK's and 90gr of Retumbo (mild load) It is a heavy rifle though around 22 pounds. But I'd like to have this round in a sporter weight rifle. I reckon it would be an excellent hunting rifle. It reminds me of a giant .243 win.

mstarling:

Its Jimmie, not Jimmy. A truly blessed and marvelous gentleman!

You are correct indeed. An amazing man. A real empirical scientist in the best possible sense.

Turned a world of hurt into a better place! Is a genuine pleasure to see such success for such a man.

338 RUM brass is cheaper (a lot) readily available and holds (depending which expert you consult) The same/slightly more/slightly less than the Lapua.

Why bother with another expesive foreign cartridge givin zero real world advantage ?

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
338 RUM brass is cheaper (a lot) readily available and holds (depending which expert you consult) The same/slightly more/slightly less than the Lapua.

Why bother with another expesive foreign cartridge givin zero real world advantage ?

Both the 338 RUM and 338 Lapua Magnum lose powder capacity when loaded with the 300gr SMK. The 338 Norma Magnum loses far less powder capacity when loaded with the 300ge SMK when loaded to the CIP/SAAMI COAL of either the RUM or LM. That is the benefit the NM enjoys when is very valuable at 1000yds and longer distances.

That depends on the action and throating. There is no 338 Norma will hold more powder than a RUM or Lapua properly set up for say 300 gr Bergers.
Next we'll hear a 308 holds more than a 30-06!

3.681”

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
That depends on the action and throating. There is no 338 Norma will hold more powder than a RUM or Lapua properly set up for say 300 gr Bergers.
Next we'll hear a 308 holds more than a 30-06!

Depending upon the individual manufacture/brand of the brass used, once-fired with neck sizing only – perhaps – the Lapua Magnum just might catch up to the 338 Norma Magnum with thinner walled brass but with the RUM, you’re looking just about at Remington only and it’s about as thin walled as you can get already.

Here’s some data pulled out of QL for you using a 300gr Berger bullet:
Possible Magazine Feed:
Bullet: 300gr Berger Hybrid #33401
Bullet Length: 1.820”
Shank Seating Depth: 0.140”
.338 RUM
COAL: 4.170”
Max Case Capacity, overflow H2O: 110.00grs
Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet: 7.866grs
Usable Case Capacity: 102.131grs
.338 Lapua Magnum
COAL: 4.134”
Max Case Capacity, overflow H2O: 108.00grs
Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet: 7.875grs
Usable Case Capacity: 100.120grs
.338 Norma Magnum
COAL: 3.900”
Max Case Capacity, overflow H2O: 111.00grs
Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet: 7.875grs
Usable Case Capacity: 103.124grs
And
Single Feed, Non-Magazine:
Bullet: 300gr Berger Hybrid #33401
Bullet Length: 1.820”
Shank Seating Depth: 0.040”
.338 RUM
COAL: 4.270”
Max Case Capacity, overflow H2O: 110.00grs
Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet: 5.597grs
Usable Case Capacity: 104.401grs
.338 Lapua Magnum
COAL: 4.234”
Max Case Capacity, overflow H2O: 108.00grs
Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet: 5.605grs
Usable Case Capacity: 102.391grs
.338 Norma Magnum
COAL: 4.000”
Max Case Capacity, overflow H2O: 111.00grs
Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet: 5.604grs
Usable Case Capacity: 105.395grs

So according to a computer program, the RUM has 1gr less capacity (less than 1%). I guess I'll give up that huge (theoretical) loss for readily available, inexpensive brass and a resale value on the rifle. Everyone loves to dump on Remington brass but I've been using it since my first 722 222 in 1958 with nary a problem in at least 30 cartridges. All this anal concern about case brands has been pretty well put to bed in numerous articles in Handloader magazine.

Sarcasm noted...

I was solely pointing out that the 338 Norma Magnum gives up zero powder capacity to the longer RUM and LM cases especially with the longer/heavier 300gr VLD bullets - nothing more, nothing less.

Use it, don’t use it, no skin off my nose either way.

I love the .338 Norma Mag round !!

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
I love the .338 Norma Mag round !!

I would too, if I had one. I wonder if a little Tikka would rechamber into such a wonder cartridge, or if the action is too light? I like Rigby case heads, maybe Hornady will make the brass if enough users came along.

PS, on NormaMag vs. RUM,

quote:

There is no 338 Norma will hold more powder than a RUM or Lapua properly set up for say 300 gr Bergers.

when comparing rounds it always helps a discussion to be fair and to treat rounds on an equal basis. AmmoGuide lists the RUM and Norma as differing in 0.3grain capacity (advantage to Norma). However, as Capo said, in a rifle with a long magzaine, the Ruger might allow forward-seated signle-shot rounds, freeing up a bit of space. All the cartridges have their plusses and minuses and those choosing new rifles or cartridges or loads need calm, accurate info.

AND
I have another question that may need it's own thread, how cheaply can one build a 338 "Ruger" (not Compact)?

Hardly sarcastic, just the truth.

I'm sure it's a fine cartridge, just quite expensive with a very narrow market niche.

As fine as the 308 Norman magnum is, I'd rather be selling a 300 WinMag as the market is so much broader.

I happen to prefer the 7x61 Super (S&H) to the 7mm Remmag, but I don't try to kid myself that it is better or more resalable than the Remington.
The Schultz & Larsen is a superior rifle to the 700, hence my choice.

So is it safe to rechamber a Tikka T-3 in 338 WM to a 338 Norma Mag?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
So is it safe to rechamber a Tikka T-3 in 338 WM to a 338 Norma Mag?

Tanz,

No you can’t rechamber the 338 Winchester Magnum barrel to 338 Norma Magnum without setting the barrel back. I’ve attached a photograph of the NM for you to compare the data points:

I'm not sure the Tikka T3 .338 mag would accomodate the .416 Rigby case head which the .338 Norma Mag has. I think you would be better off using a cz 550 perhaps or a rem 700 given that they use this for the .338 Lapua. But I'd rather a more subsrantial bolt. I think the cz 550 would make for a nice .338 Norma Mag actually. But a Rigby with a Kevlar stock and put a lighter fluted barrel on it and your good to go !!

IMHO, the 338 NM is the cartridge of the future. Were the whole story to be told, it would make an incredible movie, certainly a super book. The MANY years of development, and tons of personal sacrifice, and now General Dynamics putting it into their LWMMG (and MANY other projects) says volumes.

For me, I have already bitten the bullet. The bits and pieces for my next rifle (a 338 LM Savage rechamber) will be received at my smith's shop tomorrow morning. In a few weeks I'll have what I expect to be a seriously great rifle to shoot.

Yes, there is a very limited supply of brass, but the Norma brass is excellent - and, Norma has made a huge commitment to this cartridge and the brass. Both Black Hills and Corbon ship loaded ammo and at $42/25 for brass (Midsouth) its tons better than what you can do with 338 LM.

Poster (lawndart) - you ask for articles on the 338 NM:

http://www.longrangehunting.co...8-norma-review-1.php

http://www.tactical-life.com/o...ong-range-lethality/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Norma_Magnum

http://www.defensereview.com/g...for-mobile-infantry/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...m-machine-gun-lwmmg/

http://www.mcmillanusa.com/mcm...tactical-tac-338.php

Oh, did I mention that the 338 NM outshoots the 338 LM - and there is a LOT of data to support that statement. If you'd care to debate it, tell me why (and who you work for) and I'll see if the man will fill you in.

Bottom line, go for it!

Update:

Jamison (brass, loaded ammo, and projectiles) is back in business as Captech International - see the thread in the Big Bores forum.

I ordered a sample of their 338 NM brass (40 pieces) to see how it compares to the factory Norma brass that I already have (and which Black Hills uses).

Their 338 NM brass is more expensive than Norma (at least at Midsouth prices), so I'm very interested in how consistent the quailty is and whether I'll see the "typical" 2X reloading life they advised when I inquired.