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| One of Us |
I have two 8X57 Mausers and recently acquired a mint Persian 98. I would like a more powerful 8MM for the Persian and am asking what rechambering is best, other than 8X68? The 8X68 looks ideal, but I do not want a lot of gunsmith fees. Experienced opinions are requested. | ||
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One of Us |
There's a lot of 8MM-06 out there and folks seem to like them. You retain the original barrel and all that's needed is a rechamber job. About $150 more or less. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Ole Miss Guy, The Persian is not going to be much different with a case thats 6mm's longer. Better to handload up the 8X57 and get another gun that is made for a much larger cartridge. The next step up from the 8mm Mauser here are the 300 magnums if the game is tough. For just deer sized game at long range the 7mm magnums are sweet. Join the NRA | |||
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| one of us |
The cheapest improvement is to quit using the anemic loads that are published. Loaded to modern pressures, the 8x57 is completely capable for anything in North America, except big bears. I instrumented a Yugo M48, and run it at about 55 KPSI, which is still conservative. I get 2750 fps out of a 175 grain bullet, and that's not seriously pushing the limit. Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. | |||
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One of Us |
An 8mm that is overlooked is the 8x60.Its a little straighter case and ballistics are about like the 300H&H. I had one in a Double and liked it very much. Dies are available from RCBS and cases are obtainable. Simple rechamber and no mag problems. Still loaded by most european companies. What are you taking at Ole Miss? In fact I will be in Oxford next month visiting my brother. I miss the buffet at Abbeville. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Rechambering is possible, but not very sensible. The two typical cartridges for such a chamber reaming would be the 8x60 (loaded by only 1 manufacturer: RWS) and the 8x64 (loaded by 2 manufacturers: Sellier & Bellot and Brenneke). Both look quite a bit better on paper, but the game will not know the difference. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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Like others have mentioned, the 8 x 57 respectably loaded is an excellent performer. No significant improvement is possible without stepping-up to a magnum casehead (i.e. 8 x 68 S). If you just don't like the Kraut cartridge(understandable) the 8-06 is probably your lowest-cost option. ______________________________ DT | |||
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My first step would be to upload the 8x57mm to it's full potential, a la Norma Factory pressures, then comes the 8mm-06, cannot go wrong there at all. Then there is the 8x60S. I am working with an 8x60 right now and getting 2600 fps with 200 grain Woodleigh slugs, plenty of power there, and you can certainly hot rod it some more. Still for an 8mm hot rod, I would go to the 8mm-06, if I meant to play with the 8mm cartridges. LLS  | |||
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I would prefer a available factory cartridge over an aged born-out-of-penury wildcat whose time has long passed... apart from that consideration, the 8x64 S and the 8mm-06 are fairly identical in performance. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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 The step up from an 8x57 to an 8mm06 isn't that great if you are a hand loader and you probably are or you wouldn't posting here.There isn't a magic line one side of which determines that a rifle is capable for every game in the US and Canada but big bear and stepping up a little you cross the line and now include the big bears. The energy difference would be close to 3100ft.lbs. verses 3250ft. lbs. Bear have been taken, often, with the 30-06 with an energy level less than 2950 ft.lbs. With the right bullet and well placed shots the game isn't going to know the difference. And this from a man who has owned and chambered a number of 8mm-06s. I went this route because I wanted to( young) but in retrospect realize that there was no realistic or magic gain (old). One 8mm-06 I built for a friend that moved to Alaska in 1968. He now manages the power company in Sitka and still carries his magic rifle. It also works well dispatching 100 pound plus halibut. Much better tasting than bear or deer for that matter.  Keep the Mauser in the 8x57 cartridge.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I have loaded up 8 x 57 Mauser's to run redlined at 3100 fps plus with a 175 grain bullet in a CZ Mauser.... Brass life has been good in both 8 x 57 Remington brass and also in reformed 30/06 Remington and Winchester brass.... I am using RL 7 and IMR 4198 powders in those loads... Because of case shape, I really don't think an 8mm/06 would give you a lot more...faster powders in smaller cases seem to equal slower powders in bigger cases for velocity.. ( not an all inclusive statement there for the trolls lurking about... so skip the rhetoric!) of course you can always play with some of the magnum cases necked down to 8 mm, like the 8mm/338 Mag.....But as Roger B said... I'd keep her 8 mm Mauser and play with some handloading.... hint.. try the faster powders and work up... they will definitely surprise you.... I realized that the 8 x 57 case is like a big 223 case in size and shape.... So I used powders that were recommended for the 223 and did I get some awesome increase in results for velocity and accuracy..... cheers seafire  | |||
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Seafire's suggestion, using faster powders than you might expect, is a good one. The relatively large bore of the 8x57 gives more room for the gas to expand into. I get my best results with Varget. The 8x57 is a fine round, loaded right. Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. | |||
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Ive considered getting a 8mm/338 reamer which would wake up those tired old millsurp barrels. Of corse the drawback to that is action alterations. That along with the 8mm-06 are both Wildcats, so as long as we are talking wildcats, one other that has not been mentioned is a 8mm Gibbs. That would provide a significant improvment over the 8X57 while requiring only minimal action alterations. The nice thing about the 8mm-06 is that it is a really simple cat, easy to work with and load for, it can gain an average 100 fs over the 8X57 and the rechambering job provides an opportunity to revamp the long worn out throats that occur on 98% of M-98's. I think that in a good (fresh) barrel that the 8X57 is actually better than the 7X57 in many ways and the equal of the 30-06. But its not so shining reputation is a direct result of the state of so many "not so fresh" millsurp barrels that it is so common in. I would like to see what an 8X57 in a totally modern rifle could do in terms of accuracy and velocities, Ill bet it would be night and day compared to the average millsurp Mauser. Especialy from an accuracy standpoint. | |||
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Try the 8mm-PMM. It is the .338 Win Mag case necked down to .323. I have loadiong data for it if you need it. I believe CH4D has the dies. ****************************** There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?" Martin Luther King, Jr. | |||
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Oh, c'mon. There are sooooooo many new production rifles of top quality, chambered for the 8x57 IS. Of course these guns are sufficiently accurate, but the potential is just not the same as e.g. with a .308 WIn. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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What about 8x57 AI? Simple, with increased performance. Or just leave it as is and enjoy. | |||
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If you're going to the trouble and expense of re-chambering, then you better get enough velocity increase to make the effort worthwhile. If you new chamber won't gain at least 200 fps, you haven't achieved anything. Thus the improved versions and the 8X06 are a waste of time and money. I'd say an 323X338 mag would be worth the effort, no hard to come by brass, a bit longer to clean up the old neck, and a large enough increase in case capasity to gain 200+fps. The downside is having the bolt/extractor/rails and mag re-worked. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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You make a good point here, Paul. So, let's have a look at the present factory data. 8x57 IS with the classic 12,7 grams RNSP: 800 m/s max with the 11,7 grams DK: 820 m/s 8x60 S with the 11,7 grams DK: 835 m/s 8x64 S with the 12,8 grams TIG: 848 m/s with the 12,7 grams S&B bullets: 810-815 m/s (conservative, IMHO) with the 14,7 grams TOG: 780 m/s I have purposely not included the red-hot legendary antebellum loads of the 8x60 (Magnum & Magnum_Bombe): after all, who of you uses a 72 cms barrel ? But if you did, the Vihtavuori 5** series of propellants would certainly be able to attain these old promises. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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Carcano! Are you saying that the .308 has greater potential than the 8x57? Do I miss understand you?  I'm doubelly Bewildered. Explain, please.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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There just MAY BE AN M98 Mauser military rifle somewhere with a .318" bore, but I doubt it! I have never seen any such a critter! [b]Even the MILITARY Gew 88's made in Germany had .322"-.323" groove diameter bores from which they shot .318" bullets, the use of undersize bullets being a quite common practice in the early days of smokeless powder cartridges in Europe. Perhaps a carryover from the BP era?? "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Thanks to all of you who took time to reply. After reading the comments, it would seem that for 99.9% of my hunting in NA, I should work up strong loads for the 8X57 and simply realize that it is more than good enough. Thanks again. | |||
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The 8x57 is the great-grandfather of most cartridges (also of the .308 Win). It is overall almost unsurpassed (well, the legendary 6,8mm Chinese may have been better), but the .308 Win is simply more _accurate_. My comment only pertains to this single element. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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I am shocked you believe this. The technology of the target and tachtical equipment utilizing the .308 are more advanced than that utilizing the 8X57 or 30-06. There is no magic in the shape of a piece of brass. What was done to make the. 308 appear more accurate could have been just as easily done with the 8x57 , 30-06 or 7.7 Arasaka for that matter. Hell there even has been an abundance of developement done on the poorly designed .223 so that rifles produced in that cartridge make some pretty small groups.  It is in the reamers ,throating , neck clearances and specifically designed powders and more, not in the dimensioning of a piece of brass. Perhaps I,m getting a little too exuberant rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I' sorry, it's a fact. We have far more experience with the 8x57 IS here than you'll ever have over there. Certainly, the cartridge is capable of good hunting accuracy. 1 MOA should be feasible. But it has never been able - and still is not - to duplicate the accuracy feats of the .308 Win. The most accurate 8x57 IS I have ever read about was a Keppeler built especially for ammunition testing of a manufacturer. Even that one was not capable of prime accuracy. It is how it is. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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Sorry, Roger, he's right. What's worse, the .305" bullet is even MORE accurate, it's just no one chambers for that caliber. Truly one of the great shames of our times. PLEASE! Let's see how many competition and sniper-grade rifles Europe - the world even - has chambered and practiced extensively with. I'm sure the US has don'e more with the 308W in the last 5 years. The sheer numbers make it impossible to use the anectdote as any sort of proof, or even reference! 308 BTHP bullets are very well designed, after millions of dollars of research and testing. Let's do that with the 8x57 (all of .015" fatter) and see what kind of marksmanship can be acheived. Or better yet, how about take any gun in the world chambered in 308W and try to match what has been done with it. It ain't easy to do, unless you have thousands of people trying. This is not a hijack, BTW. It brings us back to the original point, which is: Keep the 8x57. Even if it isn't the perfect gun you can always get a 300 WM if/when you want (or 308 sniper rifle.) This will be a perfect just-what-it-is if you can appreciate it. For an all-around hunting gun, those stocks do not suit me. The barrels are to long (that's the 28", right?) and in general they're much better suited as a fun gun with some history to it. Let it be that and you'll get lots of use out of it, hunting, at the range, in the living room. Cheers! | |||
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Bawana you are proving my point by talking about what has been been done to make a HoHum design work.The intrinsic accuracy of a case design just isn't there on its own. stop and reflect on this.There is no magic olebuddy.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Roger, reread my post, please, and tell me you thought I was serious. A .305" bullet? | |||
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It is there in some cases (ambiguity intended). And this is common knowledge, you know the famous examples yourself. Now you might of course argue that the differece between .308 Win and 8x57 is not yet sufficient to warrant such a statement of mine. However, I would not agree with you here. Many millions of shots are fired in competetion every year here, and never you'll see a 8x57 rifle in the front ranks. Winners are always 6,5x55, 7,5x55, occasionally 7,62x54R, sometimes even a .30-06. The 8x57 is an excellent cartridge, copied countless times. It is the grandfather of them all. I have always extolled its virtues. But it does not have the same accuracy potential as others, in spite of the availability of excellent target bullets and factory match ammunition today. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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I was cornfused rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Your method of discussion is first rate.
Many millions of automobiles use gasoline for fuel.Very few cars today use hydrogen for fuel therefore gasolene is an intrinsicly superior fuel. Similar analogy???????  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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[Definitely a hijack! OMG I hope you got the answer you were looking for!] So, excuse my ignorance, but are there really that many match-grade .323" bullets available? Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |||
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QUOTE] The 8x57 is an excellent cartridge, copied countless times. It is the grandfather of them all. . Carcano[/QUOTE]I thought the 7x57 predated the 8x57? ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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No, the other way around - and it's not a Mauser design either. The 8x57 is from 1888, the 7x57 from 1889. Carcabo -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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Case design does make a difference or the PPC series would not rule the benchrest world and the .308 would not have displaced the .30-06 for match shooting. That said, it is not a significant difference in a hunting rifle. The only rechamber I would even consider for an 8x57 would be to 8mm-06, and that only if I had accuracy problems and wanted a new throat and leade. It is a good citizen's duty to love the country and hate the gubmint. | |||
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You got a convert Carcabo. Again the answer to the original question****** stay with the 8X57. Going to the 8mm-06 introduces the infriquent possibility of an eliptical or off center chamber or slightly bell neck depending on how and when the pilot engages.Sorry for all of the ing  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I absolutely agree.
As explained before, I would rather choose the 8x60 or 8x64 than a dying wildcat - but apart from that, I also agree. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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