quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:

AR Corey, Anything you can do using a .300 or a 30-06 with your ttsxbr549 or whatever out to 300 yards, I can do with a cup and core bullet!

I would not shoot at a bull elk front quartering towards me at 300 yards with a 30-06 cup/core. Hitting that front shoulder bone is asking for suffering of the animal and hunter tracking the animal.

I would take that shot using the Barnes product.

quote:

And I don't have to worry about the hollowpoint clogging up with dirt or hair and not expanding.

This statement shows you have no experience with the Barnes product nor understand their construction.

All pride aside, the Barnes TTSX is a exceptional bullet and worthy trying Bee.

Used both in the field and anyone who says they can not tell the difference is in deniel. My '06 set 3" high at 100 yards is 4" low at 200 and off the map at 300. My 300WM 2" high at 100 yards is dead on at 200 and 3" low at 300. I totally disagree with the statements you will not notice this in the field the fact is you will not notice this at the range where distance is set out for you and you adjust. Where you notice this is in the field where you get that once in a life time chance at the biggest moose in the forest and you think he's 200 yards off and he's realy 350. '06 he's a story no one believes 300 WM he's mounted in your den.

quote:

Originally posted by bc300winguy:
Used both in the field and anyone who says they can not tell the difference is in deniel. My '06 set 3" high at 100 yards is 4" low at 200 and off the map at 300. My 300WM 2" high at 100 yards is dead on at 200 and 3" low at 300. I totally disagree with the statements you will not notice this in the field the fact is you will not notice this at the range where distance is set out for you and you adjust. Where you notice this is in the field where you get that once in a life time chance at the biggest moose in the forest and you think he's 200 yards off and he's realy 350. '06 he's a story no one believes 300 WM he's mounted in your den.

Interesting ballistics from your '06.

According to Remington's Remmington Shoot ballistic program (available from their website from the Products page by mousing over Ammunition and then clicking Ballistics and then loading Remmington Shoot software by clicking on the "Load Remmington Shoot" within the grey box), the Remington factory 180gr Nosler Partition load sighted in 2" high at 100yds will be zero'd right at 200yds. At 250yds the load is calculated to be 3.373" low and at 300yds 8.417" low. Those calculation are with line of sight 1.5" above bore, but that is settable if you wish to change it.

Make that 3" high at 100yds and your zero moves to 238yds. Your now low .84" at 250yds and 5.672" at 300yds.

Using Remington Shoot to run the 300wm ballistics with the 180gr Nosler Partition factory load and you get, with sights set for 2" high at 100yds, a 219yd zero. Or a mere 19yds further than the 30-06 load. You would be 1.930" low at 250 and 5.899" low at 300yds. The difference between the '06 and the 300wm at 300yds is 1.745"

Using a 3" high at 100 sight in and your zero moves to 262yds and your 3.313" low at 300yds. The '06 is shooting lower by 2.359" at that 300yds.

Now using a ballistic calculator to determine real down range ballistic performance has its troubles (though the Army, Navy and Airforce do it everyday), and every rifle will vary, but not often by "'06 set 3" high at 100 yards is 4" low at 200 and off the map at 300" vs. "3" high at 100yds and your zero moves to 238yds. Your now low .84" at 250yds and 5.672" at 300yds" as provided by Remington Shoot.

Using the 3" high at 100yds sight in and the difference between the loads is 3.361" at 350yds. That ain't the difference between moose and no moose if your shot was half decent to begin with. Moreover, blowing range estimation by 75% is a bitch.

JPK

What JPK sez +1 I've never shot a moose. I've seen damn few of them if the truth were told but with a few simple emperical sessions with the plex of my scope, I have learnt to tell you what is the approx distance to a deer is. Close enough that, using the plex of my scope, I ranged an antelope at 400 yards and it was a paced 384 yards.
Wow! an error of 150 yards. You do need to get out more.

AR Corey, I goggled up a TTSF-BR549 bullet. It looks like the old Remington bronze point revisited. I guess I'm a luddite but if the bullets I use now ever let me down, I'll give them a try.

Might as well use a 30-30win, it'll do what a 300RUM will do at practical ranges just use em er new pointy bullets hornady come out with, they'll turn your 30-30 into a long range sniper rifle LOL

On a serious note, they both have their own qualities, so really think about what you need to best suit your particular circumstances.

I've owned 4 300 mags and 2 30-06s. Still have 3 300s and one 06. They all have their own qualities for a given need. 2 of the 300s are heavy bbl paper punchers, one is an elk rig. The 06, well, it will do alittle of everything as far as hunting is concerned. If I'm limited to 300yds, there's really nothing the 06 can't handle. I do prefer the 300s for heavier pills and longer ranges.

As mentioned, the 300 will recoil more, but recoil effecting accuracy is in one's mind. Yes, many can't shoot mags accurately, but look at LR bench rest results and tell me the Mags aren't accurate.

Concerning hunting: If you just want a hunting rig for shots to 300yds, I would suggest the 30-06. If you want to push heavy bullets and hunt at longer ranges, the 300 wins.

Both great carts!

Have a Good One,

Reloader

Reloader

You are correct, at 100 yards or less a 30/30 kills deer as good as anything.

The 308 is my favorite General purpose hunting calibre...

The 300 Mag adds around 100 yards of performance to the 308, and the 30/06.

I do not need a 300m Mag to hunt on my deer lease....

But I MIGHT need it on a traveling hunt.

I have used one a LOT on traveling hunts, and it has never let me down.

i got a question.......

can you distinguish 1-3/4 inches at 300 yards???

How about the middle road - a 300wsm? It comfortably outperforms a 30-06 but is not quite as good as a 300 win mag - in a short actioned rifle - using 165gn TSXs.

Pretty hard to beat without going overboard with regards to recoil/muzzleblast etc.....

JPK
I know what the remington ballistic chart says but it simplely has not been my experience use my '06. As for the distance I hunt deer in Sask. every year for the last 35 yrs and I'm usually +/- 50 yards judging the distance but with moose I know I'm not great. The difference between a big deer and a small one 60 pounds big moose and a small one 700 pounds or more. I don't get the opportuity to hunt moose as often so I know judging the distance is not my strength and have hunted with alot of different guys I can tell you, truth be told I think it's the largest problem guys face to the field. What's worse not many have the nards or common sense to admit it. Which brings me back to what I said earlier that I like that my 300 makes up if I make a misjudgement on distance. But as I always say shot whichever rifle makes you happy that's what I'm doing.
P.S my moose this year 1100 pounds 42' rack a 10 by 9 true tripod biggest moose I've ever seen a live or dead. 750 pounds of meat in the freezer. 225 yards exactly.

If you handload and you load the 30-06 up to the same pressure levels as the 300 then there is about 50 yards difference in velocity between them.
That makes a little difference on the target range at longer distances but in hunting it makes NO difference.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If you handload and you load the 30-06 up to the same pressure levels as the 300 then there is about 50 yards difference in velocity between them...

.........

458win
Personally I don't handload I buy off the shelf so I can't speak to this but I have let my logic take over here. If the knock on the 300 is the recoil then if reloaders are able to work the magic of equaling the FPS of the 300 in the '06 with the same bullits wouldn't the recoil be the same????? If so why try to over do an '06 when what you really want is 300 performance. I know it's crazy having these conversations like there is a right or wrong answer. I think at the end of the day favorate cal. are personal choice. I have just become so comfortable with my 300 I can't image using anything else for big game. I have complete confidence every time I squeeze the trigger that I'm putting meat in the freezer. I just never had that with my '06 even thow it took alot of animals. Cheers

Would .30-06 classify as a religion, like tree hugging?

quote:

Originally posted by Moorepower:
Would .30-06 classify as a religion---?

Possibly--
or just common sense-

ammo -available almost everywhere
kills--everything on the planet has fallen to it
recoil- mild
sexy- nope
reliable-yep

Probably ignored by many new gun buyers as boring, old, not fancy,--

In favor of :
muzzle blast
more difficult to find and more expensive ammo
and--of course--

braggin' rights

Well normally I stay out of these

but that 50 yard comment can't be passed up. I reload for or have reloaded for 8 different 30-06's and 10 different 300 win mags, at least that is how many I have on my spreadsheet. It is a fact that you are pushing the 06 about as hard as you can to get 2800 fps out of a 180 gr bullet and the 300 win mag can easily reach 3100 fps. That is 300 fps difference.

Put that in a ballistics program with a 180 gr Accubond and guess what - the 30-06 drops below 2000 fpe at 340 yds and the 300 win mag drops below 2000 fpe at 505 yds.

Get real people!

I have both along with many others but more often than not the 06 stays in the safe and I take the more specialized calibers out to do a specific job.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If you handload and you load the 30-06 up to the same pressure levels as the 300 then there is about 50 yards difference in velocity between them.
That makes a little difference on the target range at longer distances but in hunting it makes NO difference.

You stole everyone's thunder

Well, let's see, if you overload the .30-06 beyond SAAMI standards you are only more like a minimum of 100 yards behind the .300 WM. What a deal! Like many wise men and gunsmiths have said, if you need more velocity get a bigger case.

The .300 WM is more accurate, has more power and flatter trajectories, and, to rephrase .458Win, if you handload you can load the .300WM DOWN to .30-06 levels anytime, but it is very difficult and dangerous to load a .30-06 UP to anything even approaching .300WM standards.

Choose what you want and need but don't try to convince yourself that a .30-06 is the equivalent of a .300WM, it ain't.

IMHO Loaded with standard cup and core bullets and used at normal hunting ranges,the 300WM is at a disadvantage account of rapid bullet expansion and subsequent poor penetration. Used with super-premium bullets (heavy nosler partitions or bonded or monolithic bullets) there is an advantage in both range and killing power.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
IMHO Loaded with standard cup and core bullets and used at normal hunting ranges,the 300WM is at a disadvantage account of rapid bullet expansion and subsequent poor penetration. Used with super-premium bullets (heavy nosler partitions or bonded or monolithic bullets) there is an advantage in both range and killing power.

How can that be when there is only 50 yards difference between the 30/06 and 300 Winchester?

Does this mean if a "cup and core" is no good at 175 yards from a 300 Winchester then it is no good at 125 yards from a 30-06?

Our family has used a couple of 300 Win Mags for elk at long distance out here in the West where the distances are indeed long due to the terrain.

We have successfully taken those elk at ranges where I would think a 270/30-06 would be stretched to provide the retained energy to smack one of these down. Reloading helps to tweak the performance and gets a cartridge that gives you no doubts about delivering the mail at extended distances on elk.

I've found the .300 Win Mag to be inherently accurate with a 180 grain at 3050 fps but must admit after about a dozen of these shots off the bench, the recoil will get your attention.

You have to compare apples to apples and my 50 yards difference between the 30-06 and the 300 considers using 200 gr bullets loaded up to the same pressure levels as factory 300 Win loads. I get an honest 2700fps when loading 200 Partitions with 59 gr of MRP.
Sure the 300 Win can be loaded hotter and shoot faster. For a hunter - exactly how much does that help a rifleman who is familiar with the trajectory of his rifle ?
I'll stick by my 50 yard comment.

Okay, let's take the 200 gr Partition. Again, the bullet I shoot for the 30-06 is a 200 gr Accubond so I know that 2700 fps is possible but totally maxed out, I settle for 2650 fps and it is a stomper. So to be analogous let's go totally maxed out with the 200 gr Partition in the 300 win mag, that would be 2950 fps. I shoot the 200 gr bullets all day long at 2900 fps in the 300 win mag but have gotten to the 2950 fps mark on a few occasions.

200 gr Partition BC .481 zeroed at 200 yds

30-06 @ 2700 fps drops below 2000 fpe at 340 yds

300 win mag @ 2950 fps drops below 2000 fpe at 475 yds

The reason I am using 2000 fpe is because there will come a point when even the Partition can not be relied upon to open up right and perform as it should.

GS-custom .30cal 177gnHV [.638 bc]

.30/06 177hv 2825mv......2274/2032e[400yd] 8.8 drift, .... 200np2700mv..2003/1782e[400yd] 12.72 drift.
300mag 177hv 3050mv....2273/2031e[550yd] 15.2"drift ,.... 200np2950mv..1968/1720e[550yd] 22" drift.

30/06-177hv even at a relaxed pressure/lower recoil 2660mv, matches the high pressure/higher recoil 2700mv/200np for energy 400yd, but with less drift, 9.52" vs 12.72" for 200np.

Some of you guys must work in Washington DC for the government and are the ones telling us the economy is improving.

Fuzzy math!

You put the same bullet in the 30-06 and the 300 win mag and the 300 win mag can walk all over the 30-06 by a significant margin everytime, it's just that simple. Now do you need the extra the 300 win mag provides is another discussion and certainly open for debate, but to deny it exists is fooling yourself.

quote:

Now do you need the extra the 300 win mag provides is another discussion

The question is can you actually use it. Not whether you need it!

30-06 is a good round, but when I wanted something above my 7mm-08 I went to 300WM over a 30-06, 7mm-08 will do most of what a 30-06 is best at, If I'm after bigger and bader I want a little more.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Some of you guys must work in Washington DC for the government and are the ones telling us the economy is improving.

Fuzzy math!

You put the same bullet in the 30-06 and the 300 win mag and the 300 win mag can walk all over the 30-06 by a significant margin everytime, it's just that simple. Now do you need the extra the 300 win mag provides is another discussion and certainly open for debate, but to deny it exists is fooling yourself.

And true too.

Like grandpa always said, "If everybody like the same thing, then all the other old men would be trying to get on grandma."

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:

AR Corey, I goggled up a TTSF-BR549 bullet. It looks like the old Remington bronze point revisited. I guess I'm a luddite but if the bullets I use now ever let me down, I'll give them a try.

Your lead bullets will never let you down:

Dr. William Cornatzer of Bismark, North Dakota took 100 one-pound packages of venison that had been donated to food pantries, and imaged them in a CAT scanner. The CAT scan showed that more than 60 of the samples had been contaminated with high levels of lead from the bullets used to kill the animals. Every package had some level of contamination.

The North Dakota Health Department followed up with its own tests, which confirmed Dr. Cornatzer’s results.

http://www.kfyrtv.com/News_Stories.asp?news=16982


I have always been skeptical about using lead bullets after observing meat. It takes on an off colour and everything looks shredded.

Looking at mushroomed bullets that have lost 50-80 % of their weight also shows the tremendous power and literal vapourization of the metal. It doesn't vapourise, yet the microscopic fragments that explode deeply into the meat is a fact. Cutting out the obvious pressure damaged "shot up" is not enough and not safe. The fragments go much farther.

That lead in the meat BS was disavowed by ND's game Dept.

They had banned giving meat to food pantries, etc, but have reversed course after further loking into the issue and discovering that is was BS.

BTW, turned out the good Dr was a bunny hugging, anti gun leftist.

JPK

In support of JPK there is this NRA American Hunter update.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills - with good old Lead Core and all Lead Bullets.

I must be a dead man walking 'cause I've been eating wild game all my life (so far). And that includes ducks and quail and rabbits and squirrels that you had to chew "tender" cause you might gnaw down on a piece of shot. No telling how many #71/2s I've ingested in my life.
I think the good doctor needs to review his oath where it sez "do not harm" and think about all of the good protein he has deprived poor folks of with his outcome driven, bunny-hugging end run. Don'tchathink?

Thank you Hot Core. There is also additional info from the ND gmae dept. Don't have the time right nw to dig up links, but the gist ended up the game shot with lead core or cast lead bullets is fine and the DR was an anti hunter.

BTW, who the hell eats lung?

JPK

i used an 06' for deer/elk for years, then went to a 300winmag, then to a 300wsm. i've been back to the 06' for the last 3-4 years for one simple reason - i couldn't tell the 300 mags killed em' any deader, any quicker, than the 30-06. and less recoil too. you look for that as you age!

In terms of effect on game using the same 180 grain bullet will produce very similar results for the two calibers. All 300mags should use bullets 200 grains+ otherwise its pointless shooting them.

To achieve more knockdown power you have to use a heavier bullet travelling at sufficient velocity. We shot over 20 animals in Namibia roughly half od them were shot with a 300WM and the other half with a 375 H&H. There was a huge difference in the knockdown effect between the two calibers.

I would describe the effect between using an ice pick v/s a hammer on the game. Although both killed the game, the 375 H&H just flattened them. This all becomes even more apparent on badly placed shots....as will surely happen if you hunt long enough.

"all 300mags should use 200grain+ bullets"
Exactly! The magnums were developed to send a greater weight of metal downrange at a still useable velocity.

FWIW, here`s my opinion:
1. Buy/build a rifle you really like and that fits you. Whether it is an 06 or a 300WM is secondary. Give it good optics, mounts and if like open sights as backup.

2. Handle the rifle, get aquianted with it, so you know the balance and can handle it in pitch darkness.

3. Practice, not just at 100 metres/yards or whatever, but at ALL distances you think you will need it at. Be sure to practice so much that you learn to know your own limits.

4-10. Repeat No. 2 and 3 during offseason. When the barrel gets worn out, replace it.

If one do this, it is MY opinion that you can take (legally) all game, except for Africas Big Five. And they too, have been taken with smaller calibres then the mentioned ones.
If I go hunting with friends, I would much rather have company with a fellow who knows his 6.5x55, than the guy who bought his 300WBY last week....

An old phrase, but oh so true: "Beware of the man with only one rifle, he probably knows how to use it".

We all go thru phases...had I been smart, I would have kept my stock rem 700 in 30-06 that was an honest 3/4 moa gun and never bought another rifle other than my 375hh...

I think 5 years from now you are going to be saying:

Do I really need this extra recoil?

How many shots do I really take beyond 250 yards?  

+1 Went from a 46" rifle in 300 Win to a 40" rifle in 308 3 years ago. Extra weight, size and recoil was not worth it when I never shoot over 300 yards.

IMHO There is only a difference between the 300 mag and the 30-06 when the distance gets beyond 300yds. Inside that they are about equal, I mean, put the bullet where it should be and both will kill the animal. I've taken impala, warthog, tsessebe and whitetail deer with each. My personal choice is the 30-06, but if the 300 mag (WM, WBY mag, RSAUM or WSM) lights your fire go for it. Bottem line they both work if you do your part. Now if you anticipate having a shot longer than 300 yds than go for the mag.
As for heavier bullits, if I need more than 180 gr, than personally I'll go to a bigger caliber.
Just my 2 cents, worth what you paid for it.

TerryR

Whatever tickles your fancy... My 300WinMag works for me.

I have shot a majority of animals in my 30 years of game-getting life 300 win mags(model 70 xtr and Vanguard). They all expired. Both guns worked just so and they fitted me so I was very confident with them.
I have noticed, however, that if you shoot a magnum long enough in the mountains you will get scope-eye. I generally hunt alone and so I decided to go to an 30/06. The ammo prices also figure into the equation.
I don't reload because of space but the differences between guns would be less if I did. I do know that I can shoot my 30/06 more than I can my 300 mags because of ammo prices this in turn makes me more confident of my gun and turns into results that are more intune with hunting than shooting.

Sincerely,
Thomas