Has anybody tried this combination? I see where Hogdon has data for the 257 Roberts and 8x57 for it but no 7x57. I am looking for 2900 fps with a 140 grain bullet.
thanks

H414 will get you there. Cfe 223 is likely too fast to be optimal. Might work though if you willing to work up.
Hodgdon shows 7mm08 data for cfe233 which is portable to your 7x57. 140 at 2900 is not in the range shown though.

I agree with the above post. The 7x57 has about 4 grains more usable case capacity than 7mm-08, given a similar chamber throat design. You’ll want to consider your particular rifles chamber throat or freebore length, as 7x57 varies A LOT! If your rifle is a strong modern design, 7mm-08 data is a good reference to work from, and I think 2900fps with CFE223 is not beyond the realm of possibility. Hodgdon 7mm-08 data with the 139 grain Hornady gets about 2850fps. That bullet has a very short baring surface, though, and you shouldn’t expect to get that speed with other makers 140’s.

Thanks - my rifle is a late production Zastava model 98 currently in 30-06. If I were to specify the throat when rebarreling should I specify longer for increased freeboard to keep pressures down similar to the Weatherby magnums?

Standard 7x57 throating is long enough for any need.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Standard 7x57 throating is long enough for any need.

Unlike the 7mm-08, there is not one standard for 7x57 throats, but several. Until fairly recently, most mass production sporting rifles were using the ancient very long throated military spec chambers. Newer rifles from the likes of Ruger and Winchester have throats more similar to the 7mm-08 and 280. Depending on how much money you want to spend, a call to Dave Manson might prove very fruitful. He can make you a chamber reamer optimized for your requirements, and chances are, he’s already been there and done that. Not to disparage all of the knowledgeable folks here on AR, but you might ask John Barsness this question in the “Ask the Gunwrighters” section on 24 hour campfire. It is doubtful that there are any flavors of 7x57 that he has not played with. Ray Atkinson could chime in as well.

Sorry, no experience with the CFE224. Use the correct data. 7mm-08 is a different animal than a 7X57.
My 2000 printed Lee (my go to) gives a range of 48-52 grains H4831 for either 140's or 150's.

My go-to powder for all my 7X57's has been H-4831 available everywhere as is the data. I use that stuff in everything from 150 grainers to 175's for a barrel twist rate of 8.66"-9"/1
This powder is perfect for this case in my opinion because I like the way it fills the case or with longer/heavier bullets compresses the powder slightly.
Overall length is best determined by the magazine length first not throat depth. I still load mine within .050" of the lands by habit. But, have found it isn't as important as I thought.
Let your barrel twist suggest a bullet weight. Faster = heavier.

Thank you CO Matt for the update on Ruger and Winchester. I was unaware. When I said Standard I was referring to the ancient military throat. That one had room for anything.
Ray Atkinson speaks of long throating his 7x57's but I am sure he will chime in to tell us what that is.

H414 is a marriage made in Heaven in the 7x57, an toss the book away and work up a max load..The book is weak on a good action 7x57, the reloader boys are afraid of the many old mod. 95s 96s, falling blocks etc and under load the 7 and 8 mms to a ridiculas extent..The 7x57 can approach the .280 and 284 in velocity with like bullets, its one of my all time favorite calibers to hunt with on both sides of the big pond...

Fury01 is right I love the long throated throat and magazine as one finds in the Brno mod. 21 and 22..I set my loads to one caliber deep in the case, that's .284, and in most cases the magazine needs altering but no big deal...I load about 5 to 8 grs of H414 for my max over most" book "max loads, but that is to be worked out with the individual and his gun, I like the 160 gr. and 175 gr. bullets in my 7x57, but the Speer 130 and 145 are fantastic on deer sized game..Ive used these loads for about 60 years now. shot deer, elk, bear, Javalina, and African PG many times..Its just a fine caliber.

Oooops, to answer your question CFE is a great powder in the 7x57..and it will beat H-414 in velocity in every case by a substantial margine it seems so far..The reason I havn't mentioned it until now is Im still playing with it and I have so much 7x57 ammo loaded that H-414 it's not in the cards as yet...If I were working up loads in my 7x57 which I have I would switch to CFE223 and run a 140 gr. bullet upwards to 3200 plus FPS plus a little more, as I have done that, but for a hunting load 3000 FPS is all I would want, and I can almost do that with H414, almost...CFE seems a little better, but Im still playing with it in several calibers..Hard to be dead right without pressure equipment, and I have to fly by the seat of my pants, so approach such things with caution, the reason I won't quote loads.

I have a 7x57. In the Load From A Disc program they do list CFE223, never heard of CFE224. In the 7x57. You can reach about 2800 with a 140 gr by there loads. This isn't pushing to hard.
I stay around there. It's in a 1912 Mexican Mauser. I can load to just a bit over 3 inch COAL. It does have a long throat.
If I want to push a 7 mm bullet faster I use my 280. It's in a Remington 725. It can reach closer to 3100 fps with 140 grs. I could push them a bit farther but that's more than enough.
Leo

Speaking of 7X57's, it's time to eat a little crow. Apparently I had not worked up any loads for 150 grainers using H4831 as previously stated in this discussion. Sorry I had mis-stated.

I just put together a group of 150 grain coated Nosler silver tips (Combined Technologies) for my latest rifle (Model 21-22 custom Brno) using 48, 50 & 52 grains of H4831 powder. 52 grains was too much volume for the case. The powder ran 3/4 of the way up the neck. I didn't feel comfortable with that much compression, so I backed off the max to 51 and tapped the case to settle at 1/4 of the way up the neck. COAL is 3.2"
So, the max for the H4831 is 51 grains.

I did a lot of research using several dozen 'books' and most all of them varied considerably for max loads on the 7X57 using H4831 or 4831 powder. It was almost like you could tell when someone sued them because the max loads dropped then rose up then dropped. With all due respect, I think the book loads aren't the same from book to book. Still stickin' with my 2000-2003 Lee. These Max loads are truly max and anytime I went beyond the published max, groups expanded very quickly and signs of primer bulge appeared. NOTE: These max loads are for modern and/or high quality firearms.

Shoot often, shoot well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
H414 is a marriage made in Heaven in the 7x57, an toss the book away and work up a max load.

Thanks for the replies -
Leo - does Load from a disk list estmated pressures?
Custom - would IMR4831SC help to get more than 51 grains in the case without compressing?
Moe

Mo: I tried 52 grains of H4831SC and the volume was about the same as the H4831. IMR4831 is similar in density to those, actually even less dense. The benefit of SC powders is metering is greatly improved with the shorter kernels.
density chart

Atkinson: Might have to get a pound of H414 to try out. Very dense volume. Thanks.

CB

Let's see...Isn't H-414 identical to W-760?
I may have to give it a try. I'm not getting the velocities I want to expect out of RL-22 or H-4831.

Yes they are identical formulation. You can expect to get the velocity you want with 414...

Load From a Disc does show estimated pressure.
7x57 Sierra 140 gr GK with CFE223 gets 2650fps, with 42.1 grs at 46058 cup. This is an 85% load density load.
If you go a 90% load density you get 2807 fps with 51594 cup. They list this as high pressure.
They don't list H414 or either 4831.
They use the same 50k as the point of high pressure.
They don't always list the powder you want to use.
They do have an ok exterior ballistic program. You can choose the range increments, sight in range, and max distance.
You can then select velocity, energy, or wind deflection at those distances.
They o list a lot of wildcat cartridges. I think you can even input your own case dimensions, so you can create your own case.
I haven't tried that yet.
It does have a good selection of bullet manufactures, even some cast bullets. It don't seem to like pistol cartridges, maybe I just need to play with them more.
It can do a lot more than I can think of.
I think it does what it does at a good price.
Leo

Not to throw this thread off track but years ago (I cannot remember the rascal) a noted gun scribe stated 'Just fill the case with as much 4350 as you can and stick a 140 gr bullet on it and go hunting". Pretty much what I have been doing for over 40 years. I get ~2850 in a 21" barrel, only rifle I have ever shot over a chronograph. Todays powders you should be able to do better. Velocity is overrated, accuracy not so.

MR-2000 would be a good one but it has no data I'm aware of.
rl-19 works well
I'm using 51grs in 257 Roberts_+p Winchester cases to get 2750 for the short barrel on the ruger tang safety and just over 52grs in the Ackley with Remington cases to get 2880.[both with the Hornady 139's]
plenty of more room in the Ackley I have taken it up over 3-K with just over 55grs of 4831-sc.

the plain X57 could get another grain in no problem maybe even 2 or 3.
they just don't need it IMO.

In my long throated 7x57 or my Brno mod. 21 Ive shot the 175 gr. Nosler with 48 grs. of H414 in all my 7x57 over the years with long throats and magazines, and its a screamer and as good as a hot loaded .280, Im sure the pressure is right up there but its never been a problem in the right rifle, with the 160 gr. my favorite load is 52 grs. and it will compete with a .270 for sure. and I trim every 4 rounds, and expect 10 to 14 shootings and toss them at that, ready or not. 7x57 WW cases are cheap so no use annealing IMO..I also like PPU cases and they are inexpensive....

I DON'T RECOMMEND THESE LOADS FOR ANYONE, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW YOU PERSONALLY OR YOUR ABILITY TO WORK UP MAX LOADS FOR YOUR RIFLE.But this applies to all calibers..ONe should never copy someone elses loads until they have checked them out for pressure, velocity and accuracy..

I will say in the 7x57 and 8x57 you can safely start with max book loads and work up one grain at a time, to one half grain at a time to max for your rifle with H414, As with 4831 your not going to blow up your rifle as you cannot get enough of these powders in a case to blow it up, at worst you might pop a primer, much over reaction in some cases on many rifle powders. save yourself some grief use powders that pretty well fill the case, never use a powder that allows a double charge..

And a good tight action is paramount for hot or at published max or better loads. A rule of thumb for most anything actually, not just 7X57.

Maximum loads vary by publisher and even year to year by the same publisher. Some are hotter than others.

Here's a maximum load comparison for a 7X57 Mauser shooting 4831 or similar burn rate powder & bullets around 150 grains using the manuals I have on hand. Not exactly 140 grain. But close.

Hornady 1967 4831 154 grain spire point-------- 51 grains 2,700 fps
1983 Hodgdon H414 145-150 grain jacketed-------- 48 grains 2,764 fps
1983 Hodgdon H414 145-150 FOR RUGER ONLY -------- 51 grains 2,816 fps
1996/2000 Lee H4831 150 grain jacketed -------- 52 grains 2,662 fps
2003 Lee H4831 150 grain jacketed -------- 48 grains 2,542 fps



And just for giggles, here's a max load for the 7x57 Ackley Improved, which has a much higher case capacity (possibly 10% more, unchecked) than the 7X57.

[B]NOT FOR 7X57 Mauser !!]

1962/1970 Ackley 4350 145 grain bullet 53 grains 3,005 fps
1962/1970 Ackley 4831 145 grain bullet 58 grains 2,973 fps

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I DON'T RECOMMEND THESE LOADS FOR ANYONE, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW YOU PERSONALLY OR YOUR ABILITY TO WORK UP MAX LOADS FOR YOUR RIFLE.But this applies to all calibers..ONe should never copy someone elses loads until they have checked them out for pressure, velocity and accuracy..

Custombolt,
I would have no problem withyour loads in my Brono mod. 21 SR long throated Mausers. were within a grain one way or the other..In the long throat I would shoot your Ackley loads and have..but not in a standard Mauser or whatever..the Ackley and the long throat seem to agree with each other in my rifles..the edge barely goes to the Ackley in my case..

Ive found that CFE223 is showing to be the best powder yet in the .308 Win..fastest and most accurate, and cleans the bore, and seems to do just that best I can tell..

Well, gees. I thought my Brno 22 custom was my last rifle purchase. But...………
Now I want a 7X57 Ackley.
custombolt

The discussion of using H414 in the 7x57 makes me ask a question. I have been told that Win. 760 powder that was not within Winchester's standards was sold to Hodgden's who then sold it as H414. (And that Win. 296 that did not meet Winchester's specifications was sold as H110.) Does anyone know if this is true? If so, why use H414? Does it make any difference now that Hodgden also sells Winchester powders? I have used Win. 760 in the 7x57 with the 130 gr. Speer and had excellent results. I have two 7x57s, a Ruger #1A and a Ruger M77, both made in the 1970s. Also a Ruger in .275 Rigby, but have not worked up loads for it yet. I have had good luck in the 7x57 with several other powders and bullets. For the 139 gr. Hornady and 145 gr. Speer I use H-4831. And for the 140 gr. Barnes TSX and 160 gr. Nosler Accubond I use IMR-4350. The 1A was my favorite rifle when I lived in Texas for whitetails and feral hogs.

I don't know the History, but I can tell you I use either H414 or WW760 in the 7x57 with the same charge..Its the same powder..I no longer use 4831 or 4350, althought it shows less pressure for the same velocity as other powders, its such a pain at cutting kernals and stiff operations and varies a good deal in powder charges through your powder measure and probably should be weighed..I seldom weigh H414 or ww760, it does not vary at all in my old powder measure..I won a few bucks on that statement locally from friends.

Early on my favorite and most accurate load in the 7x57, at the time was a mod 70 pre 64 or pre war..I used 53 grs of 4831 surplus..It filled the case and of course it compacted, most 4831 max loads did, but at much much less pressure than any other powder, and that remains true to this day..such as my old all time favorite load of that old surplus powder was 61 grs. and some used 62 like Jack O'Connor, to day a max load it 58 to perhaps 59, but the problem isn't pressure its the compaction moves bullets out a bit over night!! then you have feeding problems.. I still have 40 plus pounds of that old stuff and its as good today as ever, but it cuts grains hard and is a pain..Today I use almost exclusively H414 in the 7x57..and not book loads, that are published for old falling blocks and Mausers..

Custombolt,
How about a 8x57/06 Ackley, that's my latest play toy and I shot a couple of big game animals with it and its a hammer, giving a .338 a run for the money with less recoil...Ive about wrung it out and time to move on to bigger and better things so if your hungry give me a call, trades accepted, cash works as well.

Eh. thanks. But it doesn't hit the hot button. I'm definitely going to give the H414 a try though. I seem to be stuck at 1.25" groups in my latest Brno 7X57 toy using H4831. Probably crank up the speed with some H414, see if it likes it. Maybe I am only worth 1.25 groups anymore. Not as steady as I was just a couple years ago. Got plenty of new Norma brass. So, what the hey.

I think you'll like it, its worked in all my 7x57s no guarentees but the odds are good..I use PPU brass and WW brass and fed 210s and get sub one inch in most of the Brnos Ive owned..Been thanking of a rebore for the 8 ackly maybe to a 9.3x62 havn't played with that one in a couple of years. Was thinking of the 375 Ruger but recoil is brisk and the Brnos are so light, hmmm.

At 4700 energy on the 375 Ruger a very dense/heavy stock and possibly a recoil reducer seems necessary.
I'd stick with the very cool caliber .280 Ackley Improved unless the barrel is worn out or it doesn't shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I think you'll like it, its worked in all my 7x57s no guarentees but the odds are good..I use PPU brass and WW brass and fed 210s and get sub one inch in most of the Brnos Ive owned..Been thanking of a rebore for the 8 ackly maybe to a 9.3x62 havn't played with that one in a couple of years. Was thinking of the 375 Ruger but recoil is brisk and the Brnos are so light, hmmm.