This may be "gunsmithing," but it's a standard action Winchester/USRAC M70 question, and most of those are "medium," so let's start here. I have only one M70 right now, and I wonder if this was a problem with previous ones that I just didn't notice.

I'd like to request some of you do a little experiment with your M70. Pull the bolt back fully, push the follower down all the way three different ways:

1. Push the follower in the middle, then release it.

2. Push the follower down from the rear, then release it.

3. Push the follower down from the front, then release it.

Does it return normally to its upright and neutral position in each case?

In mine, it does not. When pushed down in front, as in #3 above, the rear kicks back up and rear, lodging under the bolt, locking up the whole kit 'n kaboodle. If the magazine is fed that way, the rifle has to be unloaded from the dropped floorplate.

Is mine the only one that does this?

Jaywalker

I tried with both my 6.5X55 Featherweight and my XTR 7mm Rem mag. I tried all three way, several time, with the Featherweight and it didn't do it once. The XTR would kick the rear like you mentioned once in a while with the third way. I found the cause was the follower spring sliping in the floor plate. As a temporary fix I put a little piece of rolled up electrician tape between the spring and floor plate and the problem was fixed. I might have to put a bigger dimple in the spring leaf for a tighter fit against the floor plate.

Sorry, I'm not even going to try.
I can't see the comparison between loading a magazine properly, and jamming one end or the other of the follower full down.
I can't even see how you can load your magazine with what? 5 rounds? and have the ends of the follower as you describe.

Seems to me a bit like sticking your barrel in a tree fork, bending it, and then complaining it stayed bent.

John L.

BCSteve, thanks, I'll take a look at that.

JAL, sorry you don't want to contribute, but I assure you the third way will certainly jam an entire magazine - with or without cartridges, so it's not a theoretical malfunction. The fourth or fifth cartriges don't seem to be a problem, but the first three certainly are. With the first three, the cartridges need not be pushed all the way down - the test is exaggerated to determine if the follower has a tendency.

It is in mine, at least, and the point of this is to determine if the effect is isolated or wide-spread. But, of course, if you're certain of something, there's no point in trying something new, is there?

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
This may be "gunsmithing," but it's a standard action Winchester/USRAC M70 question, and most of those are "medium," so let's start here. I have only one M70 right now, and I wonder if this was a problem with previous ones that I just didn't notice.

I'd like to request some of you do a little experiment with your M70. Pull the bolt back fully, push the follower down all the way three different ways:

1. Push the follower in the middle, then release it.

2. Push the follower down from the rear, then release it.

3. Push the follower down from the front, then release it.

Does it return normally to its upright and neutral position in each case?

In mine, it does not. When pushed down in front, as in #3 above, the rear kicks back up and rear, lodging under the bolt, locking up the whole kit 'n kaboodle. If the magazine is fed that way, the rifle has to be unloaded from the dropped floorplate.

Is mine the only one that does this?

Jaywalker

No, I've had similar problems in the past. Of all the rifles I've owned in the past 35 years, Winchesters were the only ones I've had feeding problems with. Controlled round feeding is not enough to persuade me to change my mind, as I believe it's greatly over rated in the first place. To me, if it isn't reliable, it's useless. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw but I will not own another Winchester. By comparison, my .338 WM in Savage stainless has been 100% reliable, tough as nails and extremely accurate from day one.

More test results?

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
JAL, sorry you don't want to contribute,

The thing is, i was contributing, to maybe stop some newby shooters from mishandling their guns.
Any one can find some way to jam something that moves if one tries hard enough. My point was who would ever need (or think of) to push the magazine spring full down on one end only. Where is the application??
There would be a reasonable and right way to use and load a magazine, and I don't think you are doing it.
John L.

I couldn't get the follower to hang up in any of those positions with my Supergrade Classic.

Thanks, mix3006. I appreciate it. I guess your Supergrade was a standard length action - .270, 30-06, or other?

JAL, yes, I understand your hesitation. As I mentioned, though, the test is an exaggeration of what can be done easily and unintentionally.

It happened to me several times while loading cartridges normally, and it was only later I realized what was causing the malf. All it took with cartridges was to push them down with my thumb placed slightly forward of the cartridge's center. That tipped the nose down, and the follower back up, jamming everything in place. It was only later that I came up with the test, but the test will, 100% of the time, jam my action in place.

A call to USRAC/Winchester gained me the knowledge that the follower was the right length at 3.05 inches. They suggested the follower spring might be slightly weak.

This is merely an attempt to see if the malf is isolated, and it appears it isn't, or if it affects 100% of M70 rifles, and it apparently doesn't, or if it's widespread, and that I don't know yet. Thus, the request for a test.

Jaywalker

BCSteve, thanks, yes, my spring is slipping in the floorplate, too.

It doesn't look as if I'll be learning how widespread the problem is, though. Maybe I'm spending too much time on these fora, as it appears my interests diverge from the norm.

Jaywalker

Now that sounds like an admission that you may be abnormal, so I hope you stick around to raise the standards here on AR. I see you were on the African forum re the double rifle troubles. Now there is a place to keep out of.

Anyway back to topic, I wouldn't be supprised if all my magazines played up if I gave them any excuse. A Zustava I use I'm flat out getting the spring and follower to go back in when closing the floor plate. When loading rounds I've jammed them by getting them too far back, and I've found I have to push 'em down near the rear of the case.

My M70 is the opposite and I need to push the 458 W.M.'s in from up near the heavy bullet.
The M94 Win. will spit the rnds back out at me if I don't hold 'em just right, envarably rips my thumb nail, and then tries to jam as the last one in tends to sit on the front of the loading gate. Now I'm a wake up I just poke it a bit further in with my pinky until it clicks in properly.
I was telling a friend that Ruger 22 mags never jam, when yes you guessed it!!
So the point of all this is I just learn their little peccadilloes and them humour them.
John L.

JAL,

I have to respectufully disagree. If I have one rifle, I can learn its foibles all right, but any more complicate the problem too much. "Muscle memory" has betrayed be before this, searching for a safety lever in the wrong place, for instance.

Based upon BCSteve's correct analysis of the problem, I corrected mine by increasing the dimple in the follower spring.

Unfortunately, without data as to how widespread the issue is, my phone call to USRAC/Winchester about the problem sounded - even to me - like a crank call. They agreed to notify the QC Department, but since I could only cite two or three instances, I don't believe they'll take it seriously. I could have used some AR support on this.

Jaywalker

It was a completely ligitimate question and deserved our research and answers. I've also had obscure problems with firearms and needed/wanted to know how widespread they were.
I've not had feeding problems with a M70, but that's certainly not to indicate they don't exist for others.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
even to me - like a crank call. I could have used some AR support on this.

Jaywalker

Respectfull is good. I was hoping you had a sense of humour anyway.
Your original "test" I thought was a bit extream, and I thought it was toned down a bit on the Gunsmith site.
A point I might make is that you may find on YOUR rifles, a manner of loading the cartridges the same way that suits all your rifles, which is usually near the centre of the rounds and not way up one end or the other.
A better way to describe it may be that I think one is supposed to push the cart down a bit with up to 3 fingers and to keep the cart. level.
IE it may be better to learn to load a magazine correctly rather than be finding minor quirks useing bad techniques.
Anyway I'm glad you've solved your problem with the help of an AR member.

And Bobby also, I don't think AR exists to form a lobby group to hound manafactures, or to pat each other on the back. I'm maybe playing the devil's advocate here, but all points of view can sometimes be helpful. Also I didn't think it was a feeding problem so much as a LOADING problem, and self induced at that.
Just my two bobs worth.
Regards all,
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
This may be "gunsmithing," but it's a standard action Winchester/USRAC M70 question, and most of those are "medium," so let's start here. I have only one M70 right now, and I wonder if this was a problem with previous ones that I just didn't notice.

I'd like to request some of you do a little experiment with your M70. Pull the bolt back fully, push the follower down all the way three different ways:

1. Push the follower in the middle, then release it.

2. Push the follower down from the rear, then release it.

3. Push the follower down from the front, then release it.

Does it return normally to its upright and neutral position in each case?

In mine, it does not. When pushed down in front, as in #3 above, the rear kicks back up and rear, lodging under the bolt, locking up the whole kit 'n kaboodle. If the magazine is fed that way, the rifle has to be unloaded from the dropped floorplate.

Is mine the only one that does this?

Jaywalker

Is yours the only one? absolutely not. I have owned four model 70's. Two were actually the old 670 with the post 64 push feed action in 30-06 and one was the more modern version of the push feed action which comes with the tupperware stock and a 3-9X32 simmons scope with bases and rings. The last is the bargain basement Win bolt rifle, purchased at Walmart for 300 dollars complete and was chambered in 300 win mag.

I never experienced any of the problems to which you refer, with the push feed actions. Believe me, I put thousands of rounds, consisting of every possible bullet configuration through the 670's with never a malfunction, if it were possible to make it misfeed, I would have found a way.

Unfortunately the same can not be said for my 1990's era model 70 classic with CRF in 264 mag. One must be very careful with each round inserted in the mag to make sure it is level and touching along the full length of the feed rails. Otherwize either the front or back of the round would be depressed and a jam is inevitable.

The magnum magazine only holds three rounds, and it is possible for the cartridges to be tilted out of alignment even with three in the mag.