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For you pronghorn hunters that use a .270 Win., what bullets do you find best? I suppose most use just about any 130-grainer that shoots accurately in their rifle. But are there other, lighter, .277" bullets that kill effectively and provide flatter trajectories? I notice that Hornady have a 120-gr. SST bullet, and Nosler have a 110-grain Accubond. I suspect that the latter 110-grain bullet was designed more for the 6.8 SPC than the .270 Win., but has anyone used it in a .270 Win. on pronghorn? Both these lighter .277" bullets produce very flat trajectories at velocities possible with the .270 Win. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | ||
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I have wondered about the 110 Accubond as well. Honestly though, I have never had any problem knocking over speed goats way out there with 130 grain bullets in my .270...although most of the time I have managed to sneak within 200 yards or less. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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But the lighter bullets will do worse in the wind which is counter productive and believe it or not have a worse trajectory because their BC is so low. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have had great success on pronghorns with the 270 using the Hornady 130 grain interlock at 3100 to 3200 fps. Zeroed in 3" above poa at 100 yds it is 2" below poa at 300 yards. That is plenty flat shooting. | |||
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I like many, but my go to bullets are 140 grain Trophy Bondeds. Hornady SSTs, Federal Accubonds, Winchester XPs, Barnes X, etc. and many others in 130 grain are always good as well. | |||
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I think the 130 grain Nosler Partition is about as good as anything. I found the Nosler Ballistic Tip and the Hornady SST come apart too much and can ruin a lot of meat. I have tried the Barnes SST on several animals and am really impressed with it also. Pronghorns are not generally tough animals so about any reasonable bullet will work. | |||
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On the high plains where the Antelope roam, and the wind blows just about every day, probably best to stick with the 130 gr. and most work fine.Ive used he Silvertips, Corelokts, Noslers, Hornadys,Speers, and Sierras to name a few, considering the weight of a trophy Pronghorn, most bullets work, I use the same on Texas Hill country whitetail and even West Texas Mule deer and even African PG..Lighter 270 are pretty explosive, waste meat, and don't hold their velocity at extended ranges and you will get a few very long shots, thats an option only you can decide on... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have used the 270 for years in Africa. Shot hundreds of ani Al’s with it. Used 130, 140 and 150 grain bullets. They all worked without any difference between them. For pronghorn I would use 130 grains. I wouldn’t even consider lighter ones. | |||
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My wife and I have taken over (60) Pronghorns in our hunting career. We use Win. Ballistic Silvertips; (115) gr. in 25-06, and Win. Ballistic Silvertips; (140) gr. in 280 Rem. Just our preference, nothing more. | |||
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No new magic there. 130's for the 270 win. I switched to a 129 barnes lrx for a CA tule elk from the 130 accubond due to the no lead requirement. | |||
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130's in the 270 Win and 140's in the 270 WSM version. You don't NEED a premium bullet but they do keep meat loss down a bit because of controlled expansion. That's all I'd use because they're plenty flat shooting, have respectable SD and BC and you'll need nothing more for deer/antelope. My 2 cents, Zeke | |||
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I get your point, but consider this: the Nosler 110 AB bullet has a BC of .370; the Nosler 130 AB has a BC of .435, with velocities of 3440 fps vs 3125 fps (Nosler data) for the 110 and 130 respectively. Here are the two trajectories with both sighted +3.0" at 100 yards (my standard sighting procedure with any load to be used for longer ranges): 110 AB: -7.30” at 400 yds.; -21.5” at 500 yds. Retained energy: 1419 at 400; 1168 at 500. Wind deflection with 10 mph wind at 90°: 12.13” at 400; 19.79 at 500. 130 AB: -11.25 at 400 yds.; -28.0” at 500 yds. Retained energy: 1516 at 400; 1280 at 500. Wind deflection with 10 mph wind at 90°: 11.46” at 400; 18.60” at 500. So about 4” less drop at 400 yds. for the 110 than the 130, and about 6.5” less drop for the 110 at 500 yds. Retained energy is more than sufficient for pronghorn kills at 400 and 500 yds. for both bullets. Wind deflection is a little more than a half inch more at 400 yds. for the 110 vs. the 130, and a little more than 1 inch at 500. Seems to me that, if we can assume that the 110 AB will not explode violently, it may be the better long-range choice. Nosler claims that the Accubonds need to impact at 1800 fps+ for reliable expansion. The 110 AB retains 1800 fps out to just under 700 yards, about the same as with the 130 AB. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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Well that certainly puts things into perspective. Truthfully, a lot of what we hunters and shooters argue about/discuss has next to no real life impact at 'normal' shooting distances in the field...meaning out to 400 yards. Maybe 500 yards/meters in a rare case. Even though you see a lot of talk about it, true long range shooting for hunters at distances beyond 400 or 500 yards is not really practiced by that many hunters. I personally avoid shots past 300 yards unless the situation allows me to properly dope the distance and winds on an a stationary game animal that is not aware of my presence. I doubt there would be any issues with the 110 blowing up based on the Accubonds I have seen used on big game to date. I have seen them used on everything from pronghorn to moose and bison, in many different calibres with no issues. If a blow up was going to occur it wouldn't be on the long shots anyways, it would be a close range where the muzzle velocity was still up there. On an animal the size of a pronghorn I would not worry about it. Antelope are not hard to kill and they are not very big...so most regular cup and core bullets work fine on them. The Accubond is 'bonded' so I would feel confident that it will perform properly. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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I did not use the 130 in my analysis. I used the 150 ABLR @ 2875 fps. If I am going to be shooting long ranges, I am most worried about the wind and I am going to use a heavier long range bullet. Drop is easily managed. Wind deflection is ~3.5 inches less and ~6 inches less at 400 and 500 yards, respectively than the 110 in your analysis. not that these re huge differences but wind across 400-500 yards is quite difficult to estimate and therefore difficult to determine its effect, so I want to take every advantage to minimize its effect. You may want to consider all the reasons that LR bullets are designed in the mid to upper weight range and with BCs above .45 I personally would not choose a trajectory where I was +3.5 at 120 yards peaking at +4.1 at 175 yards and still +3.5 at 230 for hunting even if I was expecting the potential for a long range shot. That being said - it's your hunt, enjoy. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Shooting at longer distances requires experienced hunters. And experienced hunter hit their targets, regardless of dust SAS long as it reasonable. And only the hunter in question knows what is reasonable, regardless of caliber or bullet weight. | |||
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S. Pender: I honestly don't think you'll know the difference in either the 110 or the 130. The velocity for the 110 looks a little optimistic, while that for the 130 is pretty realistic (I have a .270 with a "fast" barrel which yields an honest 3200 fps with a 130). Regardless of assumptions, more than 300 yards is a very long way to be shooting at a game animal. Yes, pronghorns can be difficult to approach, but you are much more likely to have a 150 yard shot than a 400 yard shot. Use the bullet which exhibits the best accuracy in your rifle, know its trajectory well, and take only reasonable shots. | |||
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All good advice. Frankly, I was just spitballing this idea for discussion. The velocity I used for the 110 AB (3440 fps) was taken from the Nosler Reloading Guide #9 (the most recent) for IMR 4350. They give 3479 fps for W760 and 3498 fps for Norma 204. I've done a fair amount of pronghorn hunting, but usually with a 7 mag. and 140-grain bullets. I agree that it's usually possible to get within 200 yards for a shot, but then there's that 16" buck standing out there at 500 with no chance to get closer....  ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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Yes, I see your point. I have focused much more on bullet drop than wind effects. With the BCs and MVs of these bullets and the same zero of +3.0" at 100 yards, the 150 ABLR drops almost 7" more at 400 yds than does the 110 AB and almost 11" more at 500. I find range estimation difficult at these extended ranges; I don't pack a range-finder on my hunts and probably never will, so flattening the trajectory was my main concern in this thread. The +3" at 100 yards is an old Jack O'Connor recommendation that I have used when expecting the range to be long. How would you zero your rig for this kind of long-range hunting? ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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For the type of long range hunting you are talking about, I would not rely on the technique you are contemplating at all. It's about knowing the range and knowing the drop at that range not whether the drop is 4 or 7 inches greater between cartridges. Consider your own comments: "I find range estimation difficult at these extended ranges; I don't pack a range-finder on my hunts and probably never will" Now lets look at some facts related to your bullet/velocity selection. Estimated Range 380 actual range 420 change in drop 4.8 inches over 1/2 your vital zone and the potential of a wounded animal. That's only a 10% error in range estimation. It gets even worse if your error is 440 vs 480 yards. My recommendation would be: 1) Always carry your range finder 2) Get either a dial turret scope or one with a BDC reticle if you are going to be serious about shooting beyond 300 yards with an 8/9 out of 10 vital hit probability. 3) If you are not going to do either of the above and insist on the 110/3400fps solution - zero at 275 and know exactly what an antelope looks like at 350 in your scope (build a plywood mock-up) and don't shoot beyond 350. At 350 you can hold just below the top of the back line. Thinking about taking shots at 400 to 500 yards without knowing exact distance and without chronographing loads is a bad plan in my opinion. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, I’d be interested in knowing how you would zero a .270 Win. rifle/scope for long-range hunting. With the 110-grain AB, the +3” at 100 yds. setting corresponds to a zero range of 314 yards. A 275-yard zero puts me +2.36” at 100 yds. and -10.31” at 400, -25.22” at 500. So this latter zero produces more drop at long ranges, but does reduce the amount of hold-under needed with the 150-250-yard ranges. Not sure about your Point 2 above. If I have a range-finder and find the range to be 380 yards or whatever, I don't see how either of the scope features mentioned helps much. If I know the trajectory of my load and know the range, the necessary hold-over or -under will be known and can be implemented without twiddling the scope or staring through a complicated BDC reticle. I do chronograph loads and rather than relying on ballistic trajectory tables based on published BCs to tell me the impact at various ranges, I have access to a range that goes out to 400 yards so that I can simply do some impact tests at the various ranges to ascertain the necessary hold-over or -under, at least to 400 yds. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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I already answered your question where I would zero the 270 win. Regarding point 2, for most people it is very difficult to determine what 10 or 18 inches above the back line is at 450 or 500 yards because it requires them to hold on "air" instead of "hair" especially if an animals head is down and there is no reference point. The hold over at 400 is about 3 inches which is not as difficult because it is only ~1 cross hairs width but it is still not necessarily easy for some because there is no "fixed reference" point for the hold. With a dial turret you obviously dial your drop and hold dead on. Similarly, with a BDC reticle you use the appropriate stadia mark for the distance and hold dead on or split the difference between two stadia marks and use the mid point as your hold point. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I would change that to experienced shooters. Frist of buy a laser range finder and a simple multiple reticle scope. Get out and practice. Put a range table on the rifle. Range first shoot second. Making first round hits at various ranges has become a lot easier. | |||
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In my own experience, and observing other hunters, nothing helps accurate shooting like confidence and nothing creates confidence like a rifle that is highly accurate. I would choose an accurate 130 gr bullet over anything else. That said, I too was surprised by the figures for the 110gr AB. For my own 270, it shoots 140 ABs so accurately that I would not want to change a thing. | |||
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I have gotten to be very skeptical about ballistic coefficients, especially shooting at distances greater than 300 yards. Where I have been shooting, CMP Talladega, there is a 200, 300, and 600 yard target. All my 270 Win bullets were stable at 300 yards, but I had 150 Fed Fusion Bt, Speer FB, and 130 Fed Fusion FB and BT tumble at 600 yards. These in print numbers all look good, till you shoot on paper at distance, and find the bullet goes unstable at velocities where it should not.  I am confident the high shots are bullets that tumbled.  The big surprise was 308 Win 190 match bullets tumbling at 600 yards. My velocities were around 2525 fps, and according to the calculators, they should have stayed super sonic at distance. Well, they tumbled. actual velocities during strings next to target image   Before recommending light weight bullets at 500, plus yards, go shoot them. And see if they are stable at distance, or not. Don't trust book values, which are basically advertising. | |||
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That's good information and advice, SlamFire--not to mention some very good real-world data. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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Slamfire you said "I am confident the high shots are bullets that tumbled." I am not familiar with whatever technology is being used for the mark-ups on your targets but did you not have access to the actual targets to see if there were "keyhole" impacts? My apologies if that is a stupid question. BTW what technology/application are you using to generate those target mark-ups? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I’d quit hunting If I had to go through this much mental masturbation to shoot an antelope | |||
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My 270 (Ruger No. 1) likes the 110 grain Barnes TTSX.  But honestly, I don't think that the antelope care. I've shot speed goats with 85 grain partition from a 243 up through a 165 grain Hornady BTSP in my 300 Mag. They all die. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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kda55, That is the point of mental masturbation - excessive analysis of something that doesn't need analyzing looking for incremental improvement where none is needed.  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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There's nothing that could possibly qualify as "mental masturbation" in considering a lighter-than-normal bullet in long-range shooting and hunting. Same process as with any bullet: empirically determine impact at various distances and decide whether the new trajectory shows sufficient improvement over that of heavier bullets and whether that bullet will kill effectively at all hunting ranges that will be encountered. A lot of the fun of handloading is looking for incremental improvement over past practices. Whether that improvement is "needed" or not is up to every shooter/hunter to decide for himself. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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This is the view of the 600 yard range, at closing time, from the upper deck of the CMP Talladega Clubhouse  The 200, 300 and 600 yard targets fold down, so they don't get hit.  Clubhouse behind range  Offhand shooters on the mound beside the club house   Shooters do not go forward of the firing line, and everyone steps behind the yellow line when staff have to go forward of the firing line. The black square objects are rubber blocks provided by the CMP as rests. On the ground are the computer screens which register hits on target  I do shoot Bullseye Pistol Competitions, and at the end of the match, I asked permission to go forward and take pictures of the pistol frames. I might have gotten the range number wrong, so bite me.   These targets locate the bullet through sound sensors. Which are behind the metal frames. The black plastic ribbon is the black you see from the front. There are rollers which advance the rubber strip.  This is the computer screen that is used at the Bullseye Range and the Highpower ranges.  the CMP does not print off your targets. I take a camera and take photographs and annotate them with my range data. Incidentally, between the rifle and the spotting scope is the display for my Chrony Chronograph. When I can, I will set up my chronograph and measure my velocities. And this is the rifle I used on those 270 Win targets. It is a pre 64 M70 with a new, match grade barrel. I brought my Al Freeland stand as that allowed me to adjust the height of the rifle using a sand bag rear. Not only do I not trust what I read in periodicals about long range claims, based on 100 yard groups, I do not believe that three shot groups are any measure of accuracy or consistency. So I tend to shoot ten shot groups, but if I am not interested in anything but elevation and windage data, I will shoot five shots to prove to my self the group is centered. Low shot counts prove nothing about the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle and load, and "averages" are used by shills to make the group size smaller. There are lots of very tight three shot groups in these targets. Shooters just pick the one they want to inflate their egos.  | |||
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Thanks Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Since I've been uncertain about the killing effectiveness of the Nosler 110-gr. AB at .270 Win velocities, I emailed Nosler CS to inquire about this. Here's the reply I got: "AccuBonds have an unlimited maximum impact velocity so you can hunt deer with them at 270 Win velocities." This is not exactly dispositive, but does add a little information. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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I have never had a physics class in my life but that does not pass the sniff test. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I wanted to find ballistic gel test videos with accubonds, and I did find several on Youtube. However, everyone is shooting the things into gelatin at 25 yards, maybe 50 yards. I would expect an expanding bullet to expand that close to the muzzle. But these companies, and their in print shills, claim these things are good to, 700 yards, 1000 yards, etc. What I want to see is the expansion in a tissue stimulant at the 700, 1000 yard velocities. It is highly likely, the bullet won't expand at those distances, it will just make a hole, and maybe not a through hole at that. The real question is, what velocity is the lower limit of expansion? Will these bullets expand at velocities less than 1900 fps?. And then, you can back out, at what distance does the bullet drop below 1900 fps, and that is your maximum ethical hunting distance. If the bullet drops below the speed of sound at 500 yards, and starts to tumble, it is sure not going to hit nose first, or expand "properly". Might cause a horrible, shallow, wound. | |||
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SlamFire....I can honestly say I have NEVER seen a range and club house like that in my whole life. Incredible.  Sorry for the slightly off topic comment. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Well, as I said, not dispositive. Actual hunting results at various ranges are needed with this bullet. I think the Nosler rep was saying that the AB will expand and remain intact at any maximum impact velocity. That was my main concern with the 110 AB. Nosler claims that Accubond bullets need to have impact velocity of at least 1800 fps (the bare minimum) for reliable expansion. The .270 110 AB, at the MV I started with, shows 1800 fps at just about 700 yards. At 300 yards it shows velocity close to the MV of the 6.8 SPC. So if it stays together at short ranges (as Nosler claims), it should perform just fine out at 400-500 yards. However, I’d like to see some game field reports with it. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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I'm sure the Nosler rep's reference was to the highest velocities achievable in currently available hunting rounds. I lent a friend a .30-06 loaded with 150 grain Nosler Accubonds to 3,000 fps MV. He shot two South Texas bucks (fairly large for whitetails) at around 50 yards. Both, as I recall, yielded complete penetrations and an immediately deceased deer. This is not the lightest weight in an Accubond, nor the highest velocity, nor the closest target, but I don't think you would experience "excessive" expansion with an Accubond in any other than the most extreme circumstance. By the way, last year my son took a very large cow elk at a range of about 70 yards with his "deer load", a .30-06 using 150 grain Ballistic Tips at 3,000 fps. (He had neglected to pack his 180 Partitions for the trip.) The shot broke the near shoulder and penetrated to somewhere in the vitals such that the elk piled up 30 steps from where she was standing when shot. My experience is that the solid base of jacket metal on both the BTip and the Accubond promotes significantly deeper penetration than might otherwise be expected. I've never had either fail to do the job. | |||
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For a Missouri guy I'd say I've killed my fair share of Antelope. Probably a few more then most folks from the "Show Me" state. I hunt most all game...America and even my only trip to Africa with a 150 grn .308 dia bullet traveling at 2900 fps. Sighted in zero at 250 I don't use holdover. I converted to ranging and twisting years ago. Poor BC be damned..... I still seem to kill stuff with my old rust -06 ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Thanks, Slamfire. Very useful info. I just keep learning! | |||
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