My dad would like to hunt coastal brown bear at some point before he gets too old. He would want me to load bullets for him. The heavy bullets available where I live are the nosler partition 220 grain, the barnes TSX 200 grain, and the swift A-frame 200 grain. Which one would be best, or would they all work fine? I'd hate to purchase all to determine which one shot best. I'm hoping to load one and have it shoot decent. I'm not even sure if this hunt will ever pan out, but in case it does I'd like him to have the best bullet for the hunt. Thanks.

CK

This is probably gonna draw a lot of flak but - I lived in SE Alaska for 30 years and did a little BB hunting. I would consider the 30-06, loaded with the heaviest bullet you can find, to be barely adequate for the big browns and grizzleys. In the hands of a novice I would not consider it to be even barely adequate.

The longer I lived there and the more bears I saw, the bigger my rifle got.

JMHO

Ray

I figured it would draw flak. I suggested that he get a larger caliber, or even use my 338 win. Maybe I'll stress that it is definately not adequate, and try to convince him to purchase a larger gun. I use any excuse I can to buy new guns, but he is old fashioned and thinks that his 06 is perfect for everything.

I´d recommend a 9,3x62 as the recoil is very manageable and it hits hard enough for bigger and meaner critters.

If I was to choose from the bullets I´d take the A-Frame.

The swift A-frame 200 grain is my choice given I'm going to use a .30-06....and a hope and a prayer that my guide is carrying something a bit bigger in case the need arises.

vapo

For an experienced guy like you, an '06 will do OK. But your guide will probably be carrying a 458W or something bigger and he will also put a slab of bacon in you back-pack as insurance.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
vapo

For an experienced guy like you, an '06 will do OK. But your guide will probably be carrying a 458W or something bigger and he will also put a slab of bacon in you back-pack as insurance.

Ray

Great humor....please note that I said given I was using a .30-06....which is what the thread presumes.

Given my druthers, I'd take the advice of cewe

I lived in Alaska 25 years, and hunted brown bears extensively... I have never used 220NP's, but in every other case, 200 grain bullets out performed 220's every time. The 200's get a bit more needed velocity and still drive deeper than 220's will...

For big bears in a 30-06, i'd use 200NP's or 200 Swifts... and that's what i consider the mininum for big bears...

DM

I would shoot the 180 grain TSX, no need for a 200 grainer in a TSX. It will out penetrate the 220 Partition.

Barnes TSX all the way.

200 gr. Barnes TSX.

Also have him carry a big can of bear spray and know how to use it.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a TSX, TTSX, Aframe, or partition.

I'm in the camp that believes the .30-06 is suitable for big browns, but I'm no fool and I pick my shots wisely. I've had to pass on shots that if I'd had my .458 WM along I would have taken in a heart beat. I also agree with DM that the 200 does better than the 220 in an -06. My choice in the -06 is the 200 Swift; it seems to keep it's front section intact more often than the Nosler Partition.

FWIW, my wife took her coastal brown with one shot from her .300 WSM with a 200 TSX. The bullet went through the heart and out the off shoulder at 105 yards, never to be seen again. The bear dropped at the shot and never got back up. According to Barnes #3 using my preferred RL-19, the difference in velocity between the -06 and WSM is about 125 fps. In my book that is negligible.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
I lived in Alaska 25 years, and hunted brown bears extensively... I have never used 220NP's, but in every other case, 200 grain bullets out performed 220's every time. The 200's get a bit more needed velocity and still drive deeper than 220's will...

For big bears in a 30-06, i'd use 200NP's or 200 Swifts... and that's what i consider the mininum for big bears...

DM

This is wise counsel. If he won't use your 338 (better option), go with the NPs or the A-frames. I like the Partitions.

one bear camp i was in had a rather inexperienced guy using an 06. he shot a bear 11 times and lost it.

If I were using my 30/06 for brown bear I would use the nosler 220 partition. but I would want back up also.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
one bear camp i was in had a rather inexperienced guy using an 06. he shot a bear 11 times and lost it.

Hitting a bear in the toenail, tail, ear, etc don't usually make sloppy joes....one must actually hit something solid.....

When one actually sees one of the large brownies, he quickly gets the desire for something a tad larger than a .30-06....maybe a .375.....but if he didn't sack any bear with 11 shots from the ole .30-06 then he wasn't going to sack it with a .458 either.

Someone once shot a bull ele with a .22 from a Walther PP, the story was in a safari book (can´t remember which one though) and as I remember it the case was well documented.

So a 30-06 will nail anything on earth as long as all variables are in check.

That said I´d personally prefer soemthing bigger for bear...

I would think that a .30-06 with a 200 gr Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, or a Barnes TSX bullet would be adequate for a big bear. I would go with a 200 gr Swift A-Frame in the .30-06.
I would prefer to use a 9.3x62 with a 286 gr bullet.

A lot of guys prefer the 220gr Partition for this kind of work, and I'm inclined to agree with them. The penetration of that bullet seems to defy its ballistics.

If you wanted an alternative, I'd say the 200gr TSX would be damn fine, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
A lot of guys prefer the 220gr Partition for this kind of work, and I'm inclined to agree with them. The penetration of that bullet seems to defy its ballistics.

If you wanted an alternative, I'd say the 200gr TSX would be damn fine, too.

Hit the right place and even 6.5x55 will do.
In 30-06 partition or Barnes are great but Lapua Naturalis gave me even more.
It's not all about calibre, the bullet placement is more important.

for years I have used the 220 grain in the .30-06 and very little of the 180's-a very good penetrator for moose to grizz. I have a couple of boxes of the 240 grain PP Woodleighs but have not done any real life tests perse', on paper them bullets are not only accurate but consistent. I tend to lean toward a heavy bullet and in close shooting for bears and/or moose-a hunters skill and success is dependent on that among other factors too.

After reading here in the AR I had bought some 4 boxes of the 200 grain Partitions and a couple of boxes of the TSX as well and the 200 GS bullet for the .30 caliber. I first used the GS's and both of course did well on black bear and moose this fall-always an exit.

I suspect that the choice of the aught six is due to familiarity and that is a plus along with the bullet choice-200 grain plus is a must for big tough critters.

just my .02-for what it is worth.

I wont use the "E" word. But I do believe that in reguards to large slugs from an 06, there comes a point where there is a fine line between a smaller wound channel as a result of very low velocity and enough penetration with a lighter one. See the above thread suggesting a 200 grainer over a 220.

Personally I think you should talk to your dad about the old school alaskans who would bore out their 06'es to a Whelen because they found the 30 cal lacking, talk him into getting one, or a 338-06, load 'er up with 250 grainers and go hunting.

Started to use TSX in both 243w and 300WM and it's kill performance has until now been very impressive on roe buck and fallow for both calibres. I’ve earlier tried A-Frame in 300WM and they are definitely not that willing to expand as the TSX are.

Go TSX, that’s a true killer I load 180 grain TSX for a friend with 30-06

There is a fine line where going too heavy for the capacity of the case might result in low velocity and possible poor performance. Sure many people have done it, but my guess is these are very experienced bear hunters who most likely LIVE in Alaska, so they have the chance to pass on poor shots, have more time to hunt, and can always try again next year. For someone who is paying for a guided trophy hunt, why spend 10-20 thousand dollars on the hunt alone, let alone transportation, trophy prep and the like, on "possible" and "marginal". I also guess that a guide is going to give you a good chance of getting on a very large bear. Now that most big game seasons are coming to a close, many larger caliber rifles can be had for good prices, swap the scope off his '06 and call a 3-600$ new rifle VERY cheap insurance against the possible 25k spent overall on the trip.

use whatever rifle that you are comfortable shooting shot placement is more important than caliber. you can kill a bear with a ball pein hammer if you hit it in the right place

A bear with a ballpien hammer, Now THAT would be something to see someone else try to do!

The mental pictures are forming already,

When you realize the danger a bear can do to you if conditions are not ideal, I would recommend a larger gun. Yes the 30-06 can do it, but a bigger diameter bullet moving as fast will do it better.
Good hunting, and good luck on your bear hunt.
Graham

There is nothing wrong with any of the bullets you mentioned for use on large bears. Before Nosler started making their 220 partition I used the 200 partitions for all my guiding; including brown and grizzly bears. I found they gave as much penetration as my 375 and if the bears died any slower I never noticed it.
The 30-06 was the first choice for hundreds of Alskan guides for over fifty years and was used to kill the world's record bear on Kodiak.

ANYONE WHO CLAIMS THE 30-06 IS NOT EFFECTIVE ON BIG BEARS HAS EITHER NOT USED ONE - OR IS UNWITTINGLY COMMENTING ON THEIR MARKSMANSHIP

When Phil speaks, I'm one who listens. My only experience with 700-pound and larger animals is with African plains game, where a 250-grain Barnes TSX from a 9,3X62 did very fine work. I'd probably pick the 200-grain TSX in a .30-06 for bears, loaded as fast as possible, and be glad for the guide's .375 ...

thank you 458 for bringing some "reality" to this thread. i lived and hunted in alaska for several years and noticed the majority of bear hunters i ran in to (almost all were locals)were either using an 06' or 300 win mag. there isn't a bear in the world that an 06 with a 180/200 partition can't take.

.30-06 is an okay choice provided the person handling the rifle has practiced with it and taken it afield. Any of the bullets will do, I prefer the A-Frame myself as I find they expand a little more than the TSX in personal experience.

I would go to something larger given the choice. If recoil is an issue, there is always the .338-06/.35 Whelen/9.3x62 options, any of which will leave a lasting impression. Of course the .338 WM is about as good as it gets for an all-arounder if he can handle it.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeyB:
.30-06 is an okay choice provided the person handling the rifle has practiced with it and taken it afield. Any of the bullets will do, I prefer the A-Frame myself as I find they expand a little more than the TSX in personal experience.

I would go to something larger given the choice. If recoil is an issue, there is always the .338-06/.35 Whelen/9.3x62 options, any of which will leave a lasting impression. Of course the .338 WM is about as good as it gets for an all-arounder if he can handle it.

This goes for any and every weapon you hunt with and this is especially important when hunting game that bites back. A shot in the foot with a .505 Gibbs will get you eaten, so placement is always king.........no matter what the caliber of the weapon you choose.......

Phil Shoemaker a Bear Guide in Alaska had this to say about the 30-06

Quote:
458Win
Campfire Regular


Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Circle Hot Spring, AK

Offline
If my new rifle is done I will be backing him up with a 30-06 and 220 Nosler Partitions.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker

" The problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell



Quote:
458Win
Campfire Regular


Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Circle Hot Spring, AK

Offline
The bears today are no larger or tougher than the bears of 50 years ago when the 30-06 was by far the most popular rifle carried by Alaskan guides. Andy Simms and Hosea Sarber and a hundred others found nothing wanting with the 30-06 then, and now, with the bullets we have today, the 30-06 is even better.

Contrary to some opinions, guides who recommend 30 calibers for bears do so to insure that they do not have to shoot their client's bears.

ANYONE WHO CLAIMS THE 30-06 IS INNEFFECTIVE HAS EITHER NOT TRIED ONE - OR IS UNINTENTIALLY COMMENTING ON THEIR MARKSMANSHIP.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...t/all/gonew/1#UNREAD


Since Phil is talking about Alaskan Brown Bear, I believe that the 30-06 will more than be up to the task of taking a Black Bear, no matter what the color phase happens to be

The Nosler Partition 150-grain has worked for me and some others on big bears fired from the .270 Win. I note that many a polar bear has succumbed to the 6.5X55 using 160-grain softpoints.

The '06 should be OK in 200 or 220 grain for your father. But I assume he'll have backup! How well does he shoot your .338?? That's a much better choice!! He should use what he shoots best with!!

The 200-grainer can reach close to 2700 FPS when used with 59 or more grains of H4831 or RL 22. This load has to be approached with CAUTION. I assume the temp will be in the 40's or 50's during spring bear hunt season.

I also assume that your father will have backup for hunting these huge creatures. I would NOT hunt them alone!

If i were going hunting for those big shaggys i would not stop with an 06 i would have to take 338 375HH or what ever i could handle effectly.
Old Timer

In one of Phil's recent articles (I'm not at home so I don't remember the magazine or article name), he said something to the effect of there being three things in life where one immediately becomes an expert after their first time...bear hunting, sex, and African safaris. He also mentioned great debates over the size of the equipment needed for these three endeavors. Nothing could be truer.

When evaluating advice given on this subject, please pay attention to the first hand experience of the person offering the advice. I'll be the first to admit that there are plenty of inexperienced hunters in Alaska, but I think you have a better chance of getting good advice about bear hunting in Alaska from a person who lives in Alaska than you would from someone who has only hunted there a handful of times.

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
use whatever rifle that you are comfortable shooting shot placement is more important than caliber. you can kill a bear with a ball pein hammer if you hit it in the right place

I bought a case of ball-peen hammers to shoot out of my Rifle, but I can’t find any loading data for it….


Vg

Having seen the damage my buddies 06 with 165gr Hornady interlocks does to a Bull Moose, and knowing the partition bullet like I do its a no brain er that the 06 and 200gr Partition can handle the job.
Its a lethal combo for sure.
Put that combo where it counts and its all good.
There is absolutely no magic to it a Bear is mortal like you and I, if you put a nasty little pill in his vitals he goes for a dirt nap end of story.

My KISS list.
Don't take iffy shots, stern shots should be considered off limits (unwounded).
Rest the rifle when you shoot.
Know your limitations/equipment.
Get completely familiar with your rifle, don't take a new/unfamiliar rifle on a hunt.
Scopes are good but a lower power variable like a 1.5X5 or 2X7 in a hi quality brand is the way to go in BB habitat.
Get close.. 100yds is far get closer.
Zero at 100yds. Fire your rifle at 25, 50 and 75 yds etc. and note the poi. Know the trajectory to 200yds.
Study Bear vitals so you know your shot placement.
Practice shooting from different positions.
I have prolly killed more game from the kneeling position with hasty sling than any other way with prone a close 2nd. I am a huge advocate of using anything solid and handy as a rest and then work down from there. Standing offhand is the last resort. Use your sling it will help you.
Always but always.. function test the intended ammo "every last cartridge" before you take it hunting with you.
Works for me. ;>
Good Luck

I also lived and hunted in Alaska for number of years and '06 w/ Remington CoreLokt 220gr worked well on black, griz, brown, moose, caribou, whatever quite well. Also used 375HH and both did the job fine. Fortunately never found my self in position to stopping some sort of rush from bear or moose and perhaps I was lucky, but shots were in range of 100 yards or so (did not want any closer!) and have a lot of confidence in the '06 w/ that load. As mentioned before, can't shoot the bear in the leg regardless of caliber and expect him to give up and die.

If I were you, I'd go with the 220 gr PT. If it were me, I would use my 338 RUM with a 250 gr PT at 3024 fps.

JD338