I got quite confused with the recent rules about flying abroad with firearms then the cancellation of those rules, so let me ask from scratch; as someone who has a dual citizenship and owns firearms in the US, I am willing to take one of my firearms back to Europe where it will stay. Preparing the importation license and customs forms back home is quite easy, but wondering about the part concerning the USA's end.

On my departure, I assume that I will have the gun securely encased in airlines approved hard case, no ammo, will inform my airline, and will go through the inspections before it's checked in. Is that all I need to do, or do I need to go through extra steps or fill forms telling them that the gun is not coming back to the USA again? Does that make me an exporter or requires certain certifications?

Thanks in advance.

I would get hold of a firearms exporter and ask for more information from more of an expert.

Once the gun is in another country.....there is nothing to require you to bring it back....so just leave it there and get on with other things.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Once the gun is in another country.....there is nothing to require you to bring it back....so just leave it there and get on with other things.

Agreed.
There appears to be no mechanism from the US side that requires you to bring it back if you leave the country with it.

I have had the same question as the OP.

With the old 4457 forms one could take one's rifle and decide in the future whatever to do with it.

If the new system is put in place, then theoretically, one would need to renew the temporary export every four years. Bother, bother.

For now, the form 4457 suffices.

I'd read ITAR and EAR before I left any firearms overseas. That makes you an exporter and subject to stringent regulations and exorbitant fines for non-compliance. I don't recommend getting legal advice over the internet.

The firearms remain 'in possession', they are not exported to anyone else. Some of us are what are called 'ex-pat' residents.

i've done this many times with moving guns between the US and Germany. Bottom line, as long as your duel citizenship is intact there is no restriction on how long the gun remains out of the USA. If you ever drop your US citizenship just make sure you have legally imported your rifle to your new home and you are fine.

Depends on the country..You don't have to bring it back as far as US law goes, and you only need proof of ownership to return with it. Proof of ownership can be a simple receipt or a US Custome form 4457.

However normally your required to properly register the firearm such as in Africa, and may need some documentation at some point in your life..I think I'd just tell'em it fell in a river full of crocs! (just kiddind)

You did fail to state the country in question. Keep in mind its very easy to find yourself in deep dodo by some of the suggestions given on the internet..We have an administration right now that pays little heed to the law or the constition and does whatever suits them, and might file a Fed case on you for gun running or even general smuggling. I would meet with a US Custom Agency or the US Atty's Office where you live, and have a clear understanding in writing as to what you can or cannot do.

Let me repeat! Don't take legal advice from the internet. Read, or have an expert explain the relevant EAR and ITAR regulations. I've read them and taken a class and I still don't know the definitive answer to this question.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Let me repeat! Don't take legal advice from the internet. Read, or have an expert explain the relevant EAR and ITAR regulations. I've read them and taken a class and I still don't know the definitive answer to this question.

The irony of the thing is that there are no "experts". ITAR is interpreted and enforced differently depending the airport, Customs Officer you run into. 4-5 years ago I wanted to take one of my bolt action rifles to Hungary and keep it there permanently. Couple of weeks before traveling I went to the airport's Customs Office to declare my intentions. The young officer searched her manual and stated that I wouldn't need any export licence. Needless to say I was all excited about the ease of the whole process. On my traveling day at check in counter I was instructed to go to Customs and declare the rifle. An older, well seasoned officer was on duty. Basically he told me if I took the rifle without a valid export permit I would be arrested on spot for illegal firearms exporting. Of course you can take your guns anywhere by filling out form 4457 and don't bring it back. Then "You have to ask yourself a question: do you feel lucky" (Clint) so it never comes back and bite you on the a$$.
It seems there is not a simple way to do this- as it stands now. You either go through a whole slew of trouble to get an export licence, or go through a firearm exporter. The last guy I called quoted $300 per gun.

If you take it OUT of the US with your 4457 form and don't bring it back who gives a rats ass in the US? No one. The trouble will be on the other end, the country you are bringing it into.

I do this on most of my trips to Namibia. I talk to my PH's and find out what they want me to build them. I have taken as many as three and not brought them back. All done legally. Last time we used a Lawyer in Windhoek and it went very smooth. Plan on spending as much as a day doing the paperwork run around. The US doesn't care, at this point, if you don't bring them back..........Tom

Tapper: If the "US doesn't care ... if you don't bring them back" why did the State Department publish GUIDELINES FOR THE PERMANENT EXPORT,
TEMPORARY EXPORT, AND TEMPORARY IMPORT OF
FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
U.S. MUNITIONS LIST CATEGORIES I AND III?

Good question. The answer is they do care.

Adrian 4444: The Arms Export Control Act of 1976 granted the President the authority to regulate the export of firearms. The International Traffic in Arms Regulation created the United States Munitions List. Firearms are a Catagory 1 listing (Code of Federal Regulations Title 22 - Chapter 1 - Subchapter M - Part 121). As others have advised on this thread, you should seek competent legal advice before doing what you have proposed. Just because others have admitted to what may be a violation of Federal Regulations on an open forum, it may not be advisable to follow their advice.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Good question. The answer is they do care.

As I said, "THEY DON"T CARE AT THIS POINT". If Obama gets his way then they will.

You're all correct.

The laws are written to control export in general, so personal, private rifles tend to be handled "as exemptions." Tehcnically, taking a rifle out of the country for the purpose of not bringing it back needs an export permit. On the other hand, if a person lives overseas and later decides to sell or give the rifle to a friend, that is currently under the radar and falls between the cracks, as the rifle is more than likely already legally in the system of the foreign country, customs paid (something not true of a 4-week hunting safari). A person would need to get a foreign export license of the foreign country to bring it back to the US on its non-expiring USCustoms-4457, and then get an export license, possibly followed with a new import license to the foreign country. Extremely complicated, because the laws are not written for that case. That is why the new laws that have been mothballed had the personal exemption clauses in them. But somewhere in the legislation boilerplate there is a requirement to renew the personal exemption every four years, with no provisions for inheritance, replacement, theft, repair, etc., since the rifle(s) of US citizens for their personal use is not the primary intention of the law.