I have a hunting buddy that wants to hunt Brown bear after watching the hunt on the history channel.The problem is he has a old shoulder in jury and cant take a lot of recoil. His big gun is 30-06 with a muzzle break for recoil so we were discussing his opitions.I said put a 200gr/220 nosler partition in with a stiff handload and go bear hunting.Need to here from hunters that have hunted big bears with a 06 the man has a extensive hunting carrer of of 50 years.But has never hunter anything bigger than Moose.

Talk to Phil Shoemaker...Brown Bear guide and big fan of the 30-06.

I do not meet your qualifications for responding, but I have hunted grizzlies with an '06 and 200 gr. partitions. No sweat. And an awfully lot of Brown bears were killed with '06s before everyone became affluent enough to own a rifle for every species of game they might hunt.
The advice I would give is simple.

1. Don't hunt by himself.
2. Don't put himself in a situation where he can be surprised up close by a Brownie, ever.
3. Don't shoot at the bear, shoot at a specific part of the bear.
4. Once his bear is down, shoot it at least once more FROM A DISTANCE BEYOND ITS QUICK TRAVERSe ABILIY before even going any where close to the bear, just for grins (and his own safety).
5. Go with a fully equipped, well experienced , highly recommended licensed and insured guide, not a cheapie or just a well-meaning friend.
6. Make his hunt a long enough one (enough days) where he can pick his shot and pass others up, no matter how big or small the bear.

Following those guidelines, I think the '06 is quite adequate, though of course if he could handle it I think he'd be a lot better off with a .338 Magnum. Maybe with a really good recoil pad and an equally good muzzle brake he could handle a .338 Mag? He could practice with lightly loaded ammo and only use the full power stuff enough to ensure proper sighting in, and of course on the hunt itself.

And if he can't afford to do it right, don't do it at all.

Cheers, and happy bear hunting.

Why not try a 9.3 X 62. Load it with a .286 grain TSX or Nosler Partition to moderate FPS. Recoil will not be worse, likely less, than a 30-06 jacked up with heavy for caliber bullets and a "stiff load". JMHO.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

The man has many rifles and some that would kill anything. But a motocycle reck left him with a bad shoulder a 338 which he has and 416 rem are out of the question he now shoots a muzzle breaked 243 for most of his lower 48 hunting and some Alaska hunting as well(caribou)Like I said he can handle a 30-06 with a muzzle break As the biggest rifle to shoot.Albert C he can hunt anything he wants as far as what he can afford.His bucket hunt is Brown Bear he don't care about Africa.Hunts elk, moose and and many hog, and black bear, deer hunts I just do a lot of hand loading for him and have shared a campfire with him a few times.I think if I can get a 220 at 2500 fps from his old mark x mauser with a 24 inch barrel it would kill a ol bear keep shoots to 200 yrds.

Mr. Shoemaker goes by 458Win here.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Talk to Phil Shoemaker...Brown Bear guide and big fan of the 30-06.

And from my limited view, Phil is someone he should hire as his guide/outfitter. As your friend is an inexperienced Brownie hunter, there is no telling in advance how he will react when he meets his first Brown bear.

Phil will be able to provide him with advice fitting his experience and armament, and help him keep himself out of trouble.

And I do think the '06 is plenty for an EXPERIENCED brown bear hunter or Alaskan woodsperson. For an inexperienced brown bear hunter, a more potent chambering very slightly increases his options as to where and how he hunts, IF he can handle it well and is alert to his surroundings.

I hunted Alaska for 27 years. Alaska requires a guide for all non-resident hunters and brownies. His guide should be his guide on cartridge selection. But since he owns a .338 I would recommend a handload matching the recoil of his .30-06. The larger bullet weight of 250 grains will work better than the '06 yet recoil can be the same. Assuming of course someone can handload for him.


BTW I used a .45-70 to take my 8.5' brownie.



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i shot my Brown Bear with an 06 ...59 gn of MRP behind the 200 gn nosler not a problem ,got full penetration and exit... the only thing diffrent i would do is to use 54 gns of R17 behind the 200 nosler for the same velocity
Daniel

I have used the 200gr in my 06 for over 40 years speer and nosler partition on elk I have also taken moose to with great results. My old friend who wants to brown bear hunt has always been a 338 man but a injury has got him to shooting a 06 with a custom muzzle break to reduce as much recoil as possible. He has seen me hammer game with the 06 for years.just have never used a 220gr and for big bear it might be a better option.

The 30-06 has been killing the big bears for years..A 180 gr. Nosler is popular with the locals and ranchers..I would opt for a 200 gr. Nosler at about 2600 to 2700 FPS and never hesitate to shoot any bear..I know it will even work on Cape Buffalo, just not recommended as a rule. I also know many Africans that shot their first Buffalo, Lion and even elephant with the 30-06. Place the right bullet in the right spot and it has a habit of making believers out of most of us. The only nay sayers are those that have not actually used it on the big stuff..Just my opine and my heads made up!

Is a semi auto an option, Browning for example, seems like a few 30-06's ought to equal one or two of something heavier and there just might be a bit of recoil reduction as well???

How'bout a handgun as back up. Its kinda hard to beat a Freedom Arms 454C; but if hes really worried about charges, I might opt for a Glock 10mm. The 10mm isnt quite the same as the 454C, on the other hand a full mag of 10mm, changes a lot of minds (2 and 4 legged).

AND as others have said a guide isnt just there for directions; hes also there for added FIRE POWER

I shot my Brown (9'2") at 7yds in a cottonwood and alder thicket with a 338-378 Wby. I would talk to the guide since the guide's area might work for the 06 or might not. I would definitely prefer the 338. I shot a Brown in self defense in 1997 on Kodiak that charged us from less than 25yds. We put two 300gr Partitions in it from 375H&H's at less than 25 feet.

The 30-06 was the hand's down most popular caliber for Alaskan guides until well into the 1960's and there are still a few guides today who use it by choice.
Even the famous Kodiak guides Bill Pinnel and Morris Talifson recommended it in their brochures and the current world record Kodiak was killed by a hunter using the 30-06.
With the bullets and powder available today it is an even better choice.

I had an opportunity to visit with an old time elephant hunter this past spring. Some memorable quotes by him apply to your question about bear.

Asked him how many elephant he had taken? He said "I do not know, less than a 1000."

Asked him what the perfect rifle was for elephant? He said "I took most of them with a 30-06. When I finally could afford another rifle, I got a 375. 375 is plenty rifle for elephant."

My father lived in Sitka in the '50, had a part time job as an assistant guide (carry heavy stuff) and I have his 06. A Model 1917 with a very 50s custom maple stock, with the deep magazine will hold 7 +1, 20" barrel. In the pocket on the case there is am of box of 220 grain round nose. I have shot it a lot but not that ammo.

Game seems to be getting harder to kill if one reads too much. In 100 years we will need an RPG to hunt duikers.

Mark

Just because a cartridge will kill a Brown Bear very time doesn't mean it will kill it quickly enough at a range of three or four feet in the willows to be a good Brown Bear cartridge for all circumstances. Assuming a man can handle it well, a bigger cartridge gives a little more leeway in the kind of foliage a man should feel safe hunting in.

I'm a large bore for brown bear guy. However I know lots of residents that have killed their brown bear with the 30-06 and it worked great. . As long as he consistently shoot it well from the positions he will encounter. Like off hand or from a tree or stick restand he is very familiar with the rifle it will work. I wouldn't go crazy getting the last fps possible. My 2, favorite 06 bullets are the 200 gr TSX and 200 gr Swift A Frame. At 2500 fps or maybe a little more they expand and penetrate well.

It he hasn't been shooting the rifle much recently, well, I'll just hare what I'm doing with my wife and her 308 getting ready for caribou season.
I'm loading 100 gr. Speer half jacket 30 Carbine bullets over 9 gr of Unique. It gives her very good practice with her rifle without the recoil. Recoil grows with bullet weight and if your friends shoulder is tender a lighter bullet like a 165-180 TSX that he shoots really well is better than a heavier that he flinches with.
For blasting and getting ready for the hunt the 100-125 gr bullets at 1600 fps or so will help him to hone up his shooting with the rifle. You may be able to find a good Blue Dot load with maybe the 125 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip or similar bullet.
If he has a good guide and is good with his rifle a tough bullet at a good velocity will work. Like a 180 gr TSX @2700 fps ect. Hopefully his guide will keep the shot at less than 100 yards.
WaterRat's wife killed a nice bear a few years ago with her 300 Savage 165 gr Nosler Partition if I remember correctly. It worked very well.
There aren't alot of guides as skilled at killing brown bear as he is but it shows that it can be done.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Just because a cartridge will kill a Brown Bear very time doesn't mean it will kill it quickly enough at a range of three or four feet in the willows to be a good Brown Bear cartridge for all circumstances. Assuming a man can handle it well, a bigger cartridge gives a little more leeway in the kind of foliage a man should feel safe hunting in.

All the client needs to do is kill the bear. The guide needs to be able to STOP the bear. . I know of alot of failures of 30 caliber rifles on brown bear I don't know of many from 416 s and 458 s. But the fact is the client just needs to be able to shoot well with the rifle he has with him. I killed a black bear one time with my 223 with a 55 gr fmjbt. 1 shot instant kill.. I don't reccomend that load. But it was what I had with me and it worked. On a guided hunt the guide needs to do all the stuff that us residents do except pay for everything and shoot the bear. For close range bear problems its the guides job to dump the bear.

I wouldn't hesitate using 30-06 with good bullets, it will work just fine.

I'd personally opt for a 338wm in a heavier gun, 26" (or longer) barrel, recoil reducer and magna porting. Recoil should be similar or even less than the 06. Mine has a 27" Krieger #5 heavy sporter barrel and with hot loads it's a pussycat to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Rub Line:
I wouldn't hesitate using 30-06 with good bullets, it will work just fine.

I'm not a bear hunter....having said that, there are few things on the planet earth that the .30-06 won't handle nicely.....or at least very few things I'd not be willing to hunt with a .30-06. Bullet selection and shot placement are still the keys to killing anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Just because a cartridge will kill a Brown Bear very time doesn't mean it will kill it quickly enough at a range of three or four feet in the willows to be a good Brown Bear cartridge for all circumstances. Assuming a man can handle it well, a bigger cartridge gives a little more leeway in the kind of foliage a man should feel safe hunting in.

All the client needs to do is kill the bear. The guide needs to be able to STOP the bear. . I know of alot of failures of 30 caliber rifles

Good theory. And works fine if the client restricts his hunting to areas where the guide can do that, as I suggested.

BUT not in the alders, willows, or other thick cover. What does he do when he almost steps on an irritated brown bear, and he happens to be between the guide and the bear?

That's not a reason to not use the '06, but it IS a reason to restrict where it used on a hunt....or to restrict the hunt so that the '06 and guide are always adequate.

During my 27 years living in Alaska I hunted SE Alaska twice and Kodiak Island about 20 times. I shot one nice brownie, was there when five others were killed and saw them up close about 18 times hunting deer on Kodiak. I used a .45-70 Mauser, one shot one dead bear. My partners used magnum rifles, from a .300 Weatherby to a .416 Remington. Brown bear are not bullet proof, and under the right conditions can easily be killed with a .30-06. Hunting bear can be very different than carrying a rifle for protection. The latter requires more stopping power since the carrier may not be looking for game and may be surprised up close with little time to react.

For a bear protection firearm the ADFG study choose a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. This is not for hunting but for protection. Data supports pepper spray as the best bear protection, period. For hunting I and most Alaskans prefer something over .308" in diameter if hunting in close cover. My personal choice was a .338 Winchester with 210 Noslers. Never used it on brownies but it worked very well on larger moose.



.

I don't think of a 30 06 as having real stopping power. Depending on terrain and cover, wouldn't it be wise to have real "stopping power" in your hands? Just asking...

Most of the time an 06 will keep you from getting chewed on. You may need lots of bullets, but not getting chewed is just that. The op asked if his friend could satisfactorily go on a brown bear hunt with his 06 . I think he could. . If he shoots it well. . Would I hunt brown bear with an 06 . NO!!!
If it isn't at least a 410 dia bullet at over 4,000 ft lbs impact energy then I'm probably NOT gonna pick a fight with a brown bear. . But that's just me and what I have confidence in.
If anyone wants a rifle that will flatten brown bear when things go wrong. Then they need a big bullet going pretty fast. Because you can't depend on the bear being accommodating to let you get in a cns shot. 5,000 +ftlbs impact energy has proven to solve pretty much all brown bear problems. But like I said. Solving the problems is the guides job. The client just needs to put his bullets thru the parts that will kill his bear, hopefully quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
I don't think of a 30 06 as having real stopping power. Depending on terrain and cover, wouldn't it be wise to have real "stopping power" in your hands? Just asking...

"Stopping power" is 98% bullet placement- and a rifle that you shoot well, even if it's "only" a 30-06, trumps a big bore that you "almost" shoot as well.

This very topic was thoroughly discussed on 24HCF a few weeks ago. It went on for quite a few days and finally broke down into the predictable name calling session.
The bottom line is 458Win has been solid on the 30-06, a premium bullet with good placement will get your big bear. Seems to me we have a lot of big magnums in gun safes that are not needed.
Course no one would deny anyones desire for a big magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by M774now:
Course no one would deny anyones desire for a big magnum.

I will be the first to agree with that.

So PHs carry 30 06 as a back up...placement being most important???

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
So PHs carry 30 06 as a back up...placement being most important???

In the past many did and even today there are those who still do. And with today's bullets it is better than ever.

And to answer your question -- Yes, shot placement is the most important factor in stopping power.

And if a bear comes at one from the right side 4 feet away in the bush, how good is the hunter's shot placement likely to be...especially if the hunter is right-handed and is taking a step with his right foot forward at that instant?

And for all you guys who claim hunter safety is the guide's responsibility, give us all a break from that "he's my nanny" point of view, please, please.

The primary person responsible for hunter safety is the hunter himself. It is absolutely impossible for any guide to always cover 360° around the hunter, especially in thick tangles found in rain forests like those of western Alaska.

It is his job to put the hunter in a position to find & see the game being hunted, and to advise the hunter of what constitutes safe behavior considering the hunter's capabilities and armament. That includes telling the hunter where he should not go and what would be the safe tool for the job all things considered.

But he CAN'T control 100% of the client's actions, nor that of the game, 100% of the time.

It is NOT the guide's job to do the impossible.

None of that changes the fact that someone has to correctly place a bullet. And that placement trumps power.
I know too may folks who were using large caliber rifles, but who misplaced their rounds and ended up getting stitched.

30-06 will not kill a brown bear. Get some spray paint or a brush and bucket of paint and paint it some other color and it will work great.

And this just keeps going.

I'm a thoracic cavity 458 or 416 guy. They have always worked perfectly for me. But I can garrentee anyone that a bear that jumps at you from 10' or less already has you. I don't care it you have a mini gun pointed at it. .
I've never had that happen and doubt anyone here has. And I couldn't even guess how many thousands of hours in close proximity to brown bear has been spent by AR members. . Apparently Glen Morgan, an assistant guide that has gone to the happy hunting grounds, had a 9' bear jump at him . He told me he knew the bear was close and happened to have his rifle pointed in the right direction. He hit it in the head with a 500 gr spitzer soft point Barnes Original out of his 450 Watts. The bear landed on him but he was able to get out from under it. Its head was pretty well destroyed. . He was an experienced guide following a wounded bear.
But. That is an extremely rare occurance.

How about a full auto Thompson .45?
Not much recoil with these!

n't

quote:

Originally posted:
None of that changes the fact that someone has to correctly place a bullet. And that placement trumps power.
I know too may folks who were using large caliber rifles, but who misplaced their rounds and ended up getting stitched.

Not one person here, including me, has even suggested that putting the bullet in the right place isn't the best way to kill ANYTHING, Especially if you are using a relatively small cartridge for the game being hunted.

But putting the bullet in the right place isn't always possible. Then a bigger cartridge may not keep you from getting mauled, but it may divert the animal from concentrating just on you...and may hurt him enough that mauling is all that will happen to you.

And though it may be absolutely true that some guides still carry '06s as their primary stopping rifle, far more don't. Why does one think the .338 Win Mag is so popular in AK?

Anyway, enough of this. Nobody suggested he not go, or that he not use an '06. What was suggested was that he use discretion in when and where he uses it. And that is still what I suggest. But in the end everyone still has to do his own thing, so fine...carry a .257 Roberts or a .470 Nitro if that is what turns your crank.

Won't make "no never-mind" to me, as we used to say down south.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Why does one think the .338 Win Mag is so popular in AK?

On the whole, It would be a safe bet that seasoned locals and guides operating in AK are better shots with a.338win than the visiting recreational hunters.

Some hunters are 'over gunned' in the sense that they cannot properly handle and utilise the power they sometimes choose to carry.
Where in fact a .30/06 . 220gn or 35Whelen 225gn would be more suitable.

I didnt set up a.338win for increased killing effect up close with 250-300gn bullets, but instead it was to send out 200-225gn bullets with flatter trajectory and retained momentum
for the selective well over 300yd shot opportunities on game....Todays modern lighter[less recoiling] premium bullets are most versatile, they can well handle the job up close or far.

I did acknowledge to myself that I desired a.338win much more than I really needed it most of the time.
I actually ordered a .375 to compliment my .30/06, but the guy brought out a .338win by mistake from the storeroom, I looked at both rifles and decided on the 338win instead, glad I did.
Just remember that P.Taylor used .350Rigby with tough steel jacket 225gn SP at 2500mv,to drill all manner of DG in Africa,
He stated it was the equal of the .375HH in killing effect out to 150yd and some beyond, and much nicer to shoot.
Todays modern loaded .35 Whelen can launch a tough premium 225gn near 2800mv....whats not to like?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
n't

quote:

Originally posted:
None of that changes the fact that someone has to correctly place a bullet. And that placement trumps power.
I know too may folks who were using large caliber rifles, but who misplaced their rounds and ended up getting stitched.

Not one person here, including me, has even suggested that putting the bullet in the right place isn't the best way to kill ANYTHING, Especially if you are using a relatively small cartridge for the game being hunted.

But putting the bullet in the right place isn't always possible. Then a bigger cartridge may not keep you from getting mauled, but it may divert the animal from concentrating just on you...and may hurt him enough that mauling is all that will happen to you.

And though it may be absolutely true that some guides still carry '06s as their primary stopping rifle, far more don't. Why does one think the .338 Win Mag is so popular in AK?

Anyway, enough of this. Nobody suggested he not go, or that he not use an '06. What was suggested was that he use discretion in when and where he uses it. And that is still what I suggest. But in the end everyone still has to do his own thing, so fine...carry a .257 Roberts or a .470 Nitro if that is what turns your crank.

Won't make "no never-mind" to me, as we used to say down south.

I believe that alot of the popularity of the 338, is the modern fascination with big guns.

I love mine, and its my primary hunting gun, but that said 99% of the time, its more gun than I need.

Has the fella with the bum shoulder considered trying to shoot left handed (assuming he is right handed)? I know a couple fellas who switched hands because of a bad shoulder.

A 30-06 with a 200 grain Swift A-Frame or similar would be ample to stop a big bear.

I will share my Bear hunting experience to hopefully illustrate the attitude of the hunter when in Big Bear country.----- My brother-in-law lived in Alaska for two years and befriended a Bear guide. He hunted with the guide for two years while there and several friends hunted with them. The discussion of rifles to hunt with was a big topic. Another native from the area of Cold Bay had been killed while hunting with a 30-06, he killed the Bear but the Bear also killed him. He was hunting alone so no one knew the cercumstances except both were found dead very close together. ----- A buddy shot a 8 footer with a 7mm Rem three times, then finished it with 3 shots from a .41 Mag at close range, he didn't enjoy the encounter. My brother-in-law shot a 9 footer at 40 feet in full charge with a 30-06, he managed to shoot it twice in the head and stopped it very close to him, had to clean his drawers. Another buddy killed a 11 and a half footer at 75 yards with a .270 using 130 grain bullets with no problems. Yes it was a true 11 and a half footer, I saw it several times and always was amazed how much bigger it was than my 9 and a half footer. ----- I knew all this history and packed a .300 Winny on my hunt loaded with 200 grain Nosler Partitions at 2900 fps. When I got my shot at 90 yards it was at a standing Bear and a heart shot put the Bear down with one shot. At the shot three additional Bears appeared that we had no idea were there as they were feeding in salmon streams adjacent to the one we had crawled up to get my shot. We were tagged for three Bears and with the three new Bears at 20 yards, 40 and 50 yards the guide yelled G-- D--- shoot Bears. Two more Bears were killed one with 4 shots the other with 5 shots, the fourth left with gusto throwing sod in the air that weighed 5 pounds. I was greatly impressed with the speed-power-toughness of the Big Bears that day. My one impression was that although I packed the .300 I felt like it was a pea shooter compared to the animals that big that close to us. Since that encounter I have been back to Alaska and Canada several times and pack either a .340 Wby, or one of two .358 STA's. Normally it is the later loaded with 270 grain Northforks at 2900 fps. I shoot these larger rifles extensively and have for years just to be able to instinctively shoot them if they are called for. ----- In conclusion the 30-06 will kill a Big Bear if you hit them right. You should hunt with whatever you shoot enough to be an instinctive shooter with. For me it is the bigger chamberings using big bullets going fast. I havn't told that story in a while, but there it is for what it is worth. Good shooting.