I have a new X-bolt in 308. I'm using some old loads my dad had for YEARS: 43 gr of IMR 3031 behind a 150 gr bullet. Hand Loader magazine had an article last month on developing an accurate load for the 308, going through nearly all the variables. (ALL would be rediculous and unreadable in an article) The author went with Varget powder. I don't have Varget, but I have 3 other IMR powders that give good velocities with goodly-filled cases (don't like a load compacted much). One of which is IMR 4320. Another might be IMR 4895. I can't remember now. Should I get the Varget? Would it actually make THAT much difference in what I find with 3 different IMR powders?

I think so.
I have 3 .308s and have loaded for others in the past.
I would love to find a powder all of them like, but no luck so far.
My newest is a kimber and using a 150 grain speer hot core bullet , My groups with varget are about 1.5 inches but with IMR-4064 they shrink to about half that size.
My lever action 88 winchester likes RL=15 and my 1953 vintage model 70 seems to like W-748.
You might het lucky and find somthing quick, and one thing really cool ablot the .308 is that its almost guarenteed it will like somthing real well.
Keep me informed on your X-Bolt please.
...tj3006

The simple answer is maybe/ maybe not.

If you are happy with your load why change. Just because varget worked in his rifle doesn't mean it will work in yours.

As to IMR powders being basically the same while their formula gives them the same energy per gr of weight their grain size and coating gives them a much different burn rate. 43 grs of a slow powder might be fine while 43grs of a fast could blow the case up. 3031, 4320 and 4895 ARE NOT the same powder and should not be interchanged.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
The simple answer is maybe/ maybe not.

Very true. One guy tests one rifle w/ several powders & says it's Varget. Good for him, doesn't mean your rifle will like it. I tried Varget in a couple of diff. carts, including 308, & got so so results. Your rifle will let you know. Use the powders you have. 4895 has always proven a winner in the .308. 4320 is a bit slow for 150gr bullets but will work as will 3031.

I always asked around to see what other guys were using. And I could come up with real tight
shooting load. I would go to a gun smith he would give two or three loads to try out.

If it matters, I have had to bounce around with a lot of powders to find an accurate reciepe for the smaller cased cartridges, BUT from .243 to the .460 Weatherby, I have always been able to find a accurate loading using IMR4350. It seems the most accurate loads for my .243, .7mm-08, .308s, 8x57, .30-06, .338, .375 H&H, have all shot best with it.

I looked for opinions awhile back for my 308 and Varget was recommended for 150s and IMR4064 was recommended for heavier bullets.

I did just that and they were right. I have my 150 btips over Varget and they shoot very well.

47.0 grs. of H380 behind 180gr Sierra SpBT's produced .64 inch groups in my Browning BBR (Predicessor to the A Bolt). I have not seen a group over an inch with this combo.

Mark

quote:

How much does powder really matter?

Just my opinion but only after you know that you have an accurate rifle

Bullet -------------55%

Powder -------------20%

OAL-----------------10%

Brass selection------8%

Primer---------------7%

Good, uniform loading technique a 100% must!

These are numbers that are not sacred but are given to you to give you an idea of one guy's opinion. roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

I always liked WW748 for silhouette shooting in 308s and 7mm08s. You may get higher velocities with other powders but we were looking for minimum velocity variance load to load and 748 won out with typical variation 10 to 15 FPS. Use magnum primers for best results.

I am fortunate in that my.308 seems to like most anything I feed it. Varget and RL15 shoot to the same POI using the same bullet,brass,and primer. Just lucky, I guess.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Bullet -------------55%

Powder -------------20%

OAL-----------------10%

Brass selection------8%

Primer---------------7%

Good, uniform loading technique a 100% must!

... to give you an idea of one guy's opinion. roger

That makes a lot of sense!

Is there a design feature to look for in a bullet when selecting a 'likely' candidate? Like when I go into the gunshop looking for a stating point - I am only going to buy one box of bullets at a time, so....

You qualify your 'opinion' by saying; "but only after you know that you have an accurate rifle". That makes sense. But now if a fellow has a rifle that doesn't normally shoot too good, is there a choice of powder and bullets that might improve the odds? Round nose bullets for example? (They might be less sensitive to overly large throats or something - maybe less sensitive to a bad muzzle?) Spire points v/s spitzers. Slow burning powders v/s faster. Less muzzle pressure to destabilize the bullet at exit? Millions of questions?

(On these forums I get to talk to the folks who have been there and done that - it's great!)

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

How much does powder really matter?

Just my opinion but only after you know that you have an accurate rifle

Bullet -------------55%

Powder -------------20%

OAL-----------------10%

Brass selection------8%

Primer---------------7%

Good, uniform loading technique a 100% must!

These are numbers that are not sacred but are given to you to give you an idea of one guy's opinion. roger

I'd say bullet 80%
powder .......10%
all else.......10%

using Varget for 150s is not a bad idea and IMR-4064 for 180s is good too but I could live with IMR-4064 for my total .308 needs!However, if I had 4320 and 4895 on hand I could live with what I had!

I would disagree with %'s pertaining too any of those items . NO DATA for supporting a hypothetical

scenario or theory . Pure speculation at best .

For all intense and purposes a boat tail or spire point should shoot better than a round nose .

In some guns they do in others they don't so there goes the 55-80 or 62.3 % bullet theory .

If I had the answer I would be Super Wealthy !. Not Gates or Buffet wealthy but REAL WELL OFF !.

Two rifles same manufacture same day may or may not like the same bullet powder cases or primers

combination . It's a Mystery in which every reloader delves into Heart and Soul to unlock .

Ain't life Grand !!!.

There are several great powders for the .308, any of which may prove to be good in your rifle. Varget is a good one, as are 4064 and IMR 4895, and several others. I would try what you had first, and if that doesn't work then go try something else. Try some simple cup and core bullets first, I like Sierra and Hornady. Don't be afraid to try a 165 instead of a 150 either, the 165's work pretty well in the .308 also. The .308 in general is not a finicky cartridge, it should be fairly straightforward to find a load it likes.

I think the answer is ... depends on the rifle.

Have seen some rifles that are just not bad with almost any powder. Have seen others that are finicky about powder!!!!

Sometimes it takes a while to find the combination of components that yields the desired accuracy. Sometimes the first load is good enough!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:



But now if a fellow has a rifle that doesn't normally shoot too good, is there a choice of powder and bullets that might improve the odds?

Prior to starting bullet-powder selection Clean the barrel A WHOLE BUNCH. Than make a thick slurry of BON-AMI and Hoppe's #9.( or any other solvent of choice) swab it for about 1/2hr. Than clean it so all or almost all the BON-AMI is gone. Lightly oil.
Use the same mag. primers and cases throughout your testing.

Select as many Known for quality bullets you can put together, in the range that your rifling twist will stabalize. --- Select one of the slowest burning powders suggested in the maunals for that cartridge. ---Load a 6 to 7% reduced from max load for the heaviest bullet you will use. The intent is to use the same load for all weight bullets you will be using and hopefully the bullet weight spread will not be too great.----Load perhaps 6 or 7 of each bullet,(set the oal .020" from the start of the rifling,)*1 for each bullet, and head to the range.

*1 Keep this standard during the testing.

Hopefully from your range results you will find one bullet that performs better than the rest. This than will be your standard bullet for the rest of the test.

Now you will load as many powders as you want that are listed in your manual for that weight bullet. Again it is suggested that at this point you use 6 to 7% reduced loads.

Your range results should indicate 1 or 2 powders that give somewhat better performance. At this juncture you may want to incrementally vary your powder charges to search for max. loads and best group. Now you look at what you have. and with what you started. Was there an improvement? If not you are probably shooting a 25-.303. roger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc224/375:
I would disagree with %'s pertaining too any of those items . NO DATA for supporting a hypothetical

scenario or theory . Pure speculation at best .

For all intense and purposes a boat tail or spire point should shoot better than a round nose .

In some guns they do in others they don't so there goes the 55-80 or 62.3 % bullet theory .
QUOTE]

WOW ! I guess we just miss the boat VD. Sure is nice to be enlightened by an expert.

quote:

If not you are probably shooting a 25-.303. roger

I didn't see it coming!

Actually, so far the 303-25 seems to shoot quite well - with someone else’s reloads. (I took a chance there, but the previous owner had been shooting them and they seemed OK).

The reason I thought a round nose might have better odds is that there would be more bearing surface and the bullet might engage the rifling earlier in the case of a long or oversize throat.

Interesting too, the reduced and constant, load method of bullet 'selection'. I was under the impression that the powder might need a fair pressure to ensure consistent combustion and was wondering whether this was where the choice of powder might be important - some chambers might 'release' the bullet too easily to develop sufficient early pressure rise. Another possibility is barrel harmonics and the way the bullet accelerates and the pressure rises may adversely affect barrel vibration. All just speculation on my part!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

If not you are probably shooting a 25-.303. roger

I didn't see it coming!



The reason I thought a round nose might have better odds ***The idea that BTpsp bullets are more accurate than RNs has not been what I have found to be true. Some RNs and FPs are surprisingly accurate. In Fact often I found that flat base bullets are far more accurate( repeatable) than BTs
A batch of 110gr. RN carbine bullets has proved through the years to give exceptional accuracy in a number of .30 cal. rifles.


Interesting too, the reduced and constant, load method of bullet 'selection'.

There is nothing magic about using the same load when selecting bullets, even of different weights. Varying the powder charge to coinside with different weights is OK. I just don't do it. Keep in mind you are only looking for a good indication and not optimal repeatability at this point and a grain or two of powder isn't going to give you large variances in performance.
I'm just jealous over your .303-25 roger

Mabey
The best way to aproach this would be to try and get a concensous in witch powders are likly to perform best in farflungs browning.
When it comes to me, The only for powders I can recall giving me satisfaction in reguards to velocity and acuracy Are.
RL-15
Varget
W-748
And IMR-4064.
Somebody here said that they have allways forund somthing that works well with IMR-4350.
I think the same has been true for me, But I only got about 2500 FPS.
There are almost certainly other powders that should work well with the .308, but it I have done well with these and not needed to go farther...tj3006

quote:

A batch of 110gr. RN carbine bullets has proved through the years to give exceptional accuracy in a number of .30 cal. rifles.

I've been eyeing a packet of those. Good price! Just thought they wouldn't work in a 304 bore with a long and loose throat.

No-one has mentioned BL-C(2). Theoretically, it is the top performer in the 303 Brit and second or equal to Varget in the 308 (i.e. highest velocity for the pressure). Isn't that powder supposed to give good accuracy results? (The only thing we are really interested in).

Just how important is the loading density? I hate the sound of powder shaking inside the case. I'm looking over at the Hodgdon manual and I see H4350 is a compressed load in the 250 Savage giving top velocity and highest pressure for the 100gr bullet. In the Swede, H1000 is a compressed load with 140gr bullets giving top velocity and near top pressure. Then I notice that some powders are listed in some calibers but not others where one would have expected them. Is that because they were not found to be satisfactory by the manual developers? Should we be selecting a powder to start with that seems to work in most calibers, such as Varget? (Which is what I did and got Varget/AR2208. Now I want a compressed charge for my 303-25 or at least a tightly packed charge).

I would hazard a guess that the powder dictates the accuracy of the bullet just as much as the bullet does.
I think primers may change the harmonic footprint of the load some, as it is essentially part of the powder charge, but I have found the powder to be the most important factor as long as I picked a bullet with good ballistic coefficient and sectional density.

I am pretty confident that I can get almost any decent bullet to shoot in any gun by trying different powders.

brass and primers play a small part, but the brass just changes the pressures somewhat. I wouldn't hesitate trying any decent brand of brass for any caliber though.

quote:

Originally posted by 33806whelen:
I would hazard a guess that the powder dictates the accuracy of the bullet just as much as the bullet does.

I am pretty confident that I can get almost any decent bullet to shoot in any gun by trying different powders. .

You are a better man than I am. roger

I know

quote:

Then I notice that some powders are listed in some calibers but not others where one would have expected them. Is that because they were not found to be satisfactory by the manual developers?

quote:

Maybe, maybe not. Only that specific book could tell you the inns & outs of their load development program. A good reloading book generally contains a powder burning rate chart and some caveat mentioning that positions on said chart aren't static. A good example would be the 6.5X55 Swede where slow burning powder do well while developing pressures some 20% below their usual average.

quote:

Should we be selecting a powder to start with that seems to work in most calibers, such as Varget?

quote:

I use this approach with military surplus rifles because such loads have a favorable velocity/pressure curve and generally regulate themselves to the original military sights. I would not, however, choose this method for hunting rifles where heavy for calibre bullets will be used. Why drive pressures up without a payoff in added velocity?

My point? Powder does matter, and some cartridges benefit greatly from a careful selection. If you can get more bang for your buck (more velocity where pressure remains constant), why not choose a powder carefully?

I have seen powder choices make a signifigant diffence in the accuracy of a paticular gun.

I guess you could call me a lazy reloader, but I prefer to get good accurate loads with as little load workup as possible. I'll research a given chambering to see what powder or powders are known for excellent accuracy, and that is the powder I'll start with. I've found that approach to typically resulting in a good load after 1 or 2 load sessions.

Occasionally I'll try a powder that I have on hand that is appropriate for a given chambering but doesn't have alot of information about great loads. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

If you don't have alot of time for loadwork, and burn enough gas to pay for a pound of powder for a trip to the range, I'd recomend buying a powder known for great groups in a given chambering. And when it comes to the .308, I'd agree that Varget is an excellent powder, so is RL 15.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
I have seen powder choices make a signifigant diffence in the accuracy of a paticular gun.

Me too.