I have the feeling a man is not whole without at least one 7x57. I have a Turkish rifle blank that I have been saving for a special project. I have access to an exceptionally clean 09 action complete with bottom metal or a pre war Model 70. Once the 09 was dressed up, the cost would be about equal for either action...which one would you pick?

Easy, the Argentine 09.

Had you said 270, 280, or 30-06 then pre war.

I have a nice G33/40 that is destined to be a 7x57. It just doesn't seem right to to Americanize it.

I like 7x57s to be light and slender, hence I avoid large ring receivers.

my choices for 7x57 are in the following order; Mexican, Brno 21,G33/40,pre64.

Dear Singleshotguy:

I am building an 8x57 on a pristine 1909 Argentine.

The 1909 feeds the 7x57 family of cartridges like greased lightening. All you have to do is use some 400 wet sandpaper to get rid of the rough machine marks under the feed rails, and you are ready to go.

The magazine and follower are set up perfectly.

The only issue will be the extractor, since the original 7.65x54 Argentine cartridge had a slightly larger rim diameter.

Sometimes all you have to do is swap extractors, and the bite will tighten up on the rim.

Answer: I'd use the 1909.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Hmm. What exactly needs to be "dressed up" on the 1909?

A pile of pooh is a pile of pooh IMHO! Remember that silk purses can't be made out of sow's ears.

The 1909 is a good chassis - Holland and Holland favoured them. But unless it is literally as good as the day it was issued I would take a second look at that M70 action.

I appreciate the comments, gentlemen....when the Mausers are worked over by a metalsmith, and stocked in American classic style, they tend to look alot like a Model 70 when finished anyway....and that's not a bad thing!

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Easy, the Argentine 09.

Had you said 270, 280, or 30-06 then pre war.

I have a nice G33/40 that is destined to be a 7x57. It just doesn't seem right to to Americanize it.

I have to agree. I picked up a clean, complete 09 @ auction for $125. I have no idea what I want to build or if I will, but I have the action just in case.

Hate to be the odd man out, but...

I built a .257 Roberts on a 1909 Argentine (DWM). Brand new action, very nice. Except, I find the lock time on the Mauser too slow. From a functional point of view, I think I'd go for the M70.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
Hate to be the odd man out, but...

I built a .257 Roberts on a 1909 Argentine (DWM). Brand new action, very nice. Except, I find the lock time on the Mauser too slow. From a functional point of view, I think I'd go for the M70.

- mike

I shoot a couple of Ruger #1 too, so lock time on a Mauser is not an issue. A M98 woul dnot be my first choice for a target rifle, but hunting gun, why not?

I may be repeating myself, but my observation is that a lot of punters take a fine Mauser and proceed to spend a considerable amount of money on it trying to make it as close to a model 70 as possible. The 7x57 and Mauser go together like ham and cheese, but if a scoped sporter with a model 70 safety is what you want, then the answer gives it self.

All my customs are on mausers. Nuff said?
Paul B.

From what I have read, all M70’s were made from 4140 steel. Any piece of steel from the 30’s is going to be better than a WW1 piece of steel.

People just look at that fine machining of pre WW1 Mausers and think the quality is deep. It’s not. It is only skin deep. .Metallurgy, process controls were very primitive in the first decades of the last century. Analyses of period materials always have the same theme:: slag, impurities, poor process controls. The M1903 was made from materials that today are used for rebar. Single heat treat receivers are known for fragging. The Mauser receivers were similar plain carbon materials, but case hardened. While the Mauser was a better design, plain carbon steels are inferior to any receiver made of 4140, assuming neither is defective.

We all love old things, but it is my face, my eyes and my fingers around that thing. So excuse me if I want something with some margin.

Go with the M70.

I won't argue with the facts of what SLAMFIRE says but with the relewvance of it to the intended purpose of the item.

For surely if all you are intending to do is shoot 1930s pressure level ammunition at 1930s pressure levels then personally I don't care if my action is "fit only for rebar".

And whilst modern manufacturing techniques may have eliminated the "Friday car" certainly in European made rifles the quality has always been there.

I read Hatcher and all the cases of badly heat treated '03 rifles but have NEVER heard of similar failures in European made military rifles.

So please don't equate US rifle manufacture shortcomings with what was done in Europe.

Unfortunately there is not a world wide requirement that everyone who blows a gun up has to report it. So people can make the claim “I never heard of it, so it must not happen” .

But it is a bogus argument.

There are lots of problems in the world that you never hear about. Those that you do hear about are because some agency or corporation is required to keep statistics. If they were not keep track of the failures you would never know anything at all.

If Hatcher had not documented the problems with low number Springfields, we would all be ignorant of the systemic problem with those receivers.

Ignorance of people blowing old firearms up does not mean it is not going on. Maybe it just means there are less of them to blow up.

There are lots of fan boys who get mad when their illusions of perfection and safety are disturbed

quote:

So please don't equate US rifle manufacture shortcomings with what was done in Europe.

The Titanic went glug, glug, glug three years after the fabrication of Argentine M1909’s . And guess who made the defective rivets? The UK. http://www.titanic-online.com/index.php4?page=319

Of course the Argentine rifles were made by the Germans, and they beat England 4-2, who tied a weak US team, so maybe the lesson to be learned is buy German.

There ain't nothing slicker than a Pre War Mod 70........smooth as a baby's ass!

This would be a real interesting discussion if it were a G33/40. Argentine's ain't that special.

Obviously, one can find examples of shoddy Mausers with poor metalurgical properties and this is also the case with P-64 Mod. 70s, as I have witnessed in 40+ years of using them.

It is a peculiarly English AND American conceit to equate supreme quality in firearms with their nationality of manufacture and this is simply wrong.

To say that American military rifles were sometimes defective and then that this never happened in Europe simply staggers one's imagination in it's presumptuous ignorance. The Mausers made as we Allies fought our way into Nazi Germany are one well documented example and there are others.

Did/do the British make SOME superb firearms, of course they have/do AS DO the Americans, Belgians, Italians, Czechs, Germans, Austrians, Swiss and, even the French.

Where bolt action rifles are concerned, sporters in particular, the Brno 21/22 and ZG-47 models from Czechoslovakia are superior to anything else I have ever used or seen and the finest American custom rifles, based on German designed actions, will equal or exceed anything made anywhere.

As to ...slick..., having lots of P-64s, including unfired pre-wars in my shooting experience, I will flatly state that a commercial Mannlicher-Schoenauer, especially by one of the great British marques, is slicker and stronger, but, seldom quite as accurate.

What the RMS Titanic's tragic wreck has to do with rifles is beyond me, but, jingoism has never improved gunmaking, rather the reverse.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

This old argument has been reiterated ad nauseum, but I will wade in one more time.

1898 Mausers based upon my research were not made from simple carbon steels, but a high tensile strength, low alloy assay that was case hardened for wear purposes and ease of function.

The two Mauser actions that I have used to build rifles, one in 6.5-06, using a 1908 DWM Brazilian and the other in 7x57 AI, using a WW-I Brno had performed flawlessly. No setback after 100's of rounds and no mechanical failures. This is also true of the millions of 1898 Mausers out there that are being used in some cases after almost 100 years.

I've owned and shot 6 or 7 pre-64 Model 70's. They worked flawlessly, too.

Even today, bad heats of steel make it out the door.

Ask yourself this, how many Springfields, Mausers and Enfields failed in the fields during WW-I and WW-II?

Also, how many German Mausers and Mauser based British firearms have failed in the 100 years of hunting with them in Africa and around the world?

There are always exceptions, but it appears pretty obvious what the "rule" is concerning all these rifles.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I'm no expert on all things but any miliary rifle has military tolerances - good but not great. From what I understand about M70s is they were machined on some loose mills and lathes so final fitting of parts had to be done by hand, using files, making them a sort of semi-custom item even tho they came from a factory.

Considering the bottom metal and trigger, greaty safety, no left side thumb cut, ease of scope mounting and faster lock time, I would take an old Win every time over any military action at all.

quote:

Originally posted by the skirt wearing kutiee(aka dewee):
...having lots of P-64s, including unfired pre-wars in my shooting experience, I will flatly state that a commercial Mannlicher-Schoenauer, especially by one of the great British marques, is slicker and stronger, but, seldom quite as accurate. ...

HC, nobody here listens to your pathetic drivel and you only encourage those who actually initiated a thread about your obvious lies and braggadocio in this section of AR, to continue attacking you.

Why, any SANE person would behave here as you do is beyond me, but, I will say that ypu have and continue to make a total fool out of yourself and I think you will never be able to gain respect or credibility on AR.

Read the reference link in the gunsmithing section about recarburizing/heat treating. The 1909 will last longer than you without heat treating when used with low pressure loads. If you want to shoot the hotter Euro loads or handloads, sent it out for heat treat/recarburizing. Model 70's are nice, but there is nothing more elegant in my eye than a mauser 98 done up in the pre-war german or English style. I especially like Rigby's light weight style. The 98's safety features are outstanding compared to the pre-64 model 70. The model 70 is "stronger", but a pierced primer or ruptured case head might get your face/eyes peppered. This is not likely with a 98 mauser. I vote for the Mauser in this case. I do like model 70's. I just like mauser's more. Oh, by the way, the mauser's lock time can be increased with a variety of aftermarket parts.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Unfortunately there is not a world wide requirement that everyone who blows a gun up has to report it. So people can make the claim “I never heard of it, so it must not happen” .

But it is a bogus argument.

There are lots of problems in the world that you never hear about. Those that you do hear about are because some agency or corporation is required to keep statistics. If they were not keep track of the failures you would never know anything at all.

If Hatcher had not documented the problems with low number Springfields, we would all be ignorant of the systemic problem with those receivers.

Ignorance of people blowing old firearms up does not mean it is not going on. Maybe it just means there are less of them to blow up.

There are lots of fan boys who get mad when their illusions of perfection and safety are disturbed

quote:

So please don't equate US rifle manufacture shortcomings with what was done in Europe.

The Titanic went glug, glug, glug three years after the fabrication of Argentine M1909’s . And guess who made the defective rivets? The UK. http://www.titanic-online.com/index.php4?page=319

Of course the Argentine rifles were made by the Germans, and they beat England 4-2, who tied a weak US team, so maybe the lesson to be learned is buy German.

You can blow up a 98, but that ain't a 98.

It has to be a mauser if 7x57. If you are going to do a .270 then a model 70. IMHO!

I would like to thank all of you for your comments and opinions. It's going to be 09 Argentine. An English blank with a honey colored background and lots of black marble.
I'll post pics in the "Custom" section when finished.
Again, gentlemen, I appreciate your input!