The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles How popular (or unpopular) are the Win short mags in Africa these days?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| How popular (or unpopular) are the Win short mags in Africa these days? | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Just curious mostly, particularly about the popularity and ammo availability of the 300 WSM. Thanks. | ||
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one of us |
I took a 300 WSM to Namibia back in 2008, it worked fine on warthog and springbok. My PH didn't think it was too unusual. I never looked for any ammunition for it though. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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One of Us |
In June of 2014 when I was in South Africa's Eastern Cape my PH received his 300 WSM that he had ordered 6 months prior. He was very excited to get it and he had several boxes of ammo that were locally available. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sounds like it's getting some attention there. I like the cartridge and have found it to be very accurate, and to have a bit less recoil. | |||
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one of us |
Since neither of us can see more than 100 yards, I'll happily loan you my .308 - if you tote my luggage you can even use the .38-72 as I'm sure ammo is available in Namibia for that.  | |||
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| One of Us |
heck, you can probably buy 38-90 WCF in Namibia. The stuff is likely just finally clearing customs with the HiWalls that were shipped with it... | |||
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| one of us |
The short mags have not had time to make a dent in the average Africans arsenal. Im sure there are a few around, but have never seen one there or talked to anyone that knows much about them..I do know the 300 H&H is now and always has been a popular round in Africa among the PHs Ive known and that is many..They turned me on to it many years ago. I still believe the .308 is the 30-30 of Africa, everyone has one and probably a case or two of black market milsurp buried under the poarch, Lot of black rifles in that caliber over there, they even hunt with them on occasions, but they serve a different purpose as a rule. I doubt the new magnums will ever be overly popular in Africa, most see no need for them, the cost is excessive, and you can feed the wife and kids with a 308 or 30-06 or granddads 9.3x62. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Some say that the short mags are prone to trouble in the heat, so I wonder if that's a factor. Interesting the 300 H&H is still popular there. I'm a big fan of the cartridge and enjoy your posts about it. Is factory ammo for the H&H at least somewhat available in Africa? | |||
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| One of Us |
Never rule out 7x64 there, either. | |||
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One of Us |
My son and I visited a friend in Namibia a few years ago. We were given a loan of a Browning A Bolt in 325WSM for some plains game hunting. The rifle was owned by a local, though I cant say how common they are over there. My son liked it so much we bought him one when we got back home. | |||
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| One of Us |
I took a 325 WSM and my daughters too a 300 WSM and a 7mm WSM. My son took his 7mm Rem Mag. It just worked out that we all took something different to try. Common? I don't think so but they've seen them used a few times now. Zeke | |||
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| One of Us |
Interesting assortment of cartridges. Notice any difference between the 325 and the others? I realize it's not hundreds of animals, but just curious. | |||
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| One of Us |
WSMs are catching on, however, the problem in Southern Africa is Somchem powders and the limited burn rates especially for voluminous cases. But folks are getting the WSMs to work pretty well. Now RUM cases on the other hand, just forgetaboutit. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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| One of Us |
Not really much difference but then again we didn't actually hunt together except one time and my son shot his monster Kudu with my 325 WSM. We each averaged about 10 animals so it was a pretty good cross-section. All were loaded with Barnes TSX bullets and everything worked to perfection, as anecdotal evidence, since the animals kept piling up. Before and since that trip, the girls have used these chamberings on a variety of NA game with stellar results and my wife used my 325 to take the family's largest bull elk (384"). These cartridges were not new to us before or since Africa. Zeke | |||
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One of Us |
I've been taking the 300 WSM to Africa since 2002 and killed scores of animals with it. It's been all over the West and to Mexico as well. The 325 WSM has been going with me to Africa since 2009 and it's also taken its fair share of animals there too. On a recent bucket list hunt with Charl of Infinito Safaris, I shot hyena, oribi, cape bushbuck, vaal rhebok (430 yards), serval, honey badger, and bush pig with it. The 325 WSM has also been to Mexico with me and I've taken two nice couse deer with it, the last one in January of this year at 500 yards. I have no plans to leave them home.  I have killed up to and including eland and giraffe with the 300 WSM. | |||
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One of Us |
I am planning a 300 WSM for my personal use here in the Eastern Cape. It should work very well on the larger animals up to kudu and gemsbok, neatly in power between the 30-06 and 300 Win. I have guided hunters with it and the 270 and 7mm WSM and liked them. Open terrain here. | |||
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| One of Us |
Maybe my concerns about loosing ammo en route are exaggerated. Have you ever had the occasion to look for ammo for the WSMs over there? | |||
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| One of Us |
[/QUOTE] Not really much difference but then again we didn't actually hunt together except one time and my son shot his monster Kudu with my 325 WSM. We each averaged about 10 animals so it was a pretty good cross-section. All were loaded with Barnes TSX bullets and everything worked to perfection, as anecdotal evidence, since the animals kept piling up. Before and since that trip, the girls have used these chamberings on a variety of NA game with stellar results and my wife used my 325 to take the family's largest bull elk (384"). These cartridges were not new to us before or since Africa. Zeke[/QUOTE] That's a heck of an elk. The 325 is an interesting cartridge. | |||
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| One of Us |
The guy I hunt with in Namibia is not a big fan because he finds that a lot of them won't feed (especially in the Browning rifle) and lots of clients load them with 165 grainers or 150's to lessen the recoil and get over compressed charge issues with heavy bullets. He is a fan of the 300 H&H though  | |||
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| One of Us |
I have an browning in 300 wsm that I've used on 3 PG hunts in SA and a few bears hunts in NA. 180 gr TSX has been on point for me. The danger of civilization, of course, is that you will piss away your life on nonsense | |||
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| One of Us |
I hunted Namibia with my 300 WSM and 325 WSM last August and shot Mountain Zebra, three gemsbok, damaraland dik dik and damaraland springbok with them. The 325 WSM literally knocked the gemsbok off of their feet. The mountain zebra was a one shot kill as was the dik dik. I shot the springbok with the 300 WSM just to make sure that it got used during the trip. As to ammo, I have never looked for any while on any of my many trips to Africa using these two calibers. My 325 WSM is an MG Arms Ultralight built on a Winchester Model 70 action. My 300 WSM is a Canyon Creek Gunstock rifle, also built on a Model 70 action. Absolutely no problems with feeding or other issues with either caliber or rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
The post indicates the popularity of these guns BY AFRICANS does it not? Im sure they are more popular with Americans going to Africa to hunt. Americans are way more prone to buy something new, Africans as a rule use guns as tools and are financially strapped for the most part. Sad but true, but they sure live the good life. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Really I meant popularity in general, and then related to being able to buy ammunition. But I suppose that if the locals are using something, there's ammo available to some extent. | |||
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One of Us |
Notwithstanding the excellent results reported here, I suspect the WSM cartridges are too hot and the wrong shape for Africa. Though the short, fat body gives powder-burning efficiency, it doesn't bode the most reliable breeching and the straight sides could also make extraction more difficult. Built in a short action, it might reduce the chance of African short-stroke, however. | |||
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| One of Us |
My personal opinion is the whole "too hot for Africa" is outdated BS that went out with the advent of modern powders but somehow maintains a foothold in folklore. How is 99 degrees in Colorado different than 99 degrees in Africa? Or 106 degrees in Texas not the same as 106 in Africa. Sorry I don't buy it. We've shot 325, 300 and 270 WSM at my farm range and they all feed, extract and function perfectly at the range and in the field on Mule Deer, Elk, Antelope and Mountain Goats just fine without even one hiccup and this is mountain and plains hunting with plenty of hiking and banging your gun around not pull it out of the truck and shoot. | |||
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| one of us |
"The post indicates the popularity of these guns BY AFRICANS does it not? Im sure they are more popu"lar with Americans going to Africa to hunt. Americans are way more prone to buy something new, Africans as a rule use guns as tools and are financially strapped for the most part. Sad but true, but they sure live the good life." Not an expert, but my thoughts exactly. Americans like guns and are always looking for the next best thing in guns, calibers, bullets etc. I suspect that working PH's and folks that hunt to eat, just want something that works and is inexpensive. Not to say that there aren't PH's that don't like a nice double rifle, but again, I suspect that functionality is primary. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeffrey, The WSM line of cartridges is doing well in SA (especially the 300wsm). Factory ammo is available although not in the variety you guys get in the States. As for th comments from Ray, well I disagree. South Africans enjoy rifles just as much as the U.S. guys. however there are two reasons that limit us somewhat. 1. The exchange rate. What is considered good value for money in the States is quite expensive in SA. 2. Our legislation makes it difficult to have a lot of firearms unless you are suitably qualified. An average guy who hasn't met the needs of a 'proficiency graded hunter' is only allowed to own 4 firearms. Even the simple process of re barreling a rifle can take anywhere between 1-3 years to get the necessary paperwork approved. On the plus side, we have some really good gunsmiths who are producing rifles that will rival some of the finest makers in the world as well as our own locally produced actions, complete rifles, ammo etc. | |||
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| One of Us |
The .300h&h is quite popular here with our local ammunition manufacturer producing ammo at about +- $30 a box of 20. I would say it is slightly ahead of the 300 WSM but still a good ways behind the 300 Win in popularity. Also you got to remember that it is harder for our dealers to import products from the U.S. then it is to import from Europe. So you'll find a 7x57 will be more popular here than lets say 7mm-08 or the 6.5x55 will be more popular than a 260 Rem. Hope this helps a bit | |||
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| One of Us |
Popularity of a particular cartridge in Africa is ultimately based on very limited availability of reloading components. While we enjoy over 50 different propellants and a multitude of choices on projectiles, shooters in Africa are far more constrained. With only 12 powders to cover rifle, pistol and shotgun cartridges, and a limited and sporadic availability of projectiles and brass, reloading can be a huge challenge. And to make it even more fun, inflation is hitting the store shelves very hard. So, while we enjoy tremendous flexibility and choices and reasonable costs, our African counterparts really struggle to make things work. So you don't see a lot of trendy cartridges being used in the field. They tend to stick with the standard fare that works with what they have available. As MD375 said, forget about anything happening quickly if you decide to grab a new rifle off the shelf. It is more of a commitment than a choice. And if it is not accurate out of the box, it becomes a mission to make them work. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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| One of Us |
Opus1 is 100% correct. Also if I might add, I'm just talking about SA. Namibia has a very enthusiastic gun crowd and I would say after us, they have one of the larger selections of firearms and accessories. Ever since the gun shop Safari and Outdoor opened, we really have been spoilt with brass, dies, ammo etc. if you guys want to get a general idea of what is popular here and the prices just have a look at their website. | |||
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| One of Us |
The Outdoor Center is where I get most of my stuff in Windhoek. Impressive supply for African standards. I also get supplies from Sven Ahrens as well. When you talk to the guys trying to get stuff imported, you begin to realize the struggles they have. Can take up to a year to receive an order. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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MD375 and Opus1 Very informative to learn these things from those who are there. It's also interesting to think about all the limitations compared to the US. Many types of powder were hard to come by here for several years, so it gives me a sense of what it's like for you guys. | |||
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| One of Us |
Fair enough but I think part of the pressure issue in Africa had to do with the larger chance that the hunter might be caught with bad extraction on the very day some DG decides to charge. The idea is to avoid apparent potential problems, just in case. As I said, the shortness of the cartridge at least limits the short-stroke problem, one every bit as dangerous as stiff extraction. | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeffrey, To get back on your original topic, I checked up in my records and found the following with regards to the WSM cartridges:- 1. Ralph Badenhorst ( Ralph Badenhorst Bespoke Gunmaker) has all the reamers and builds fantastic rifles on his own actions. 2. Alan Henry ( Natal Gun Company) is also a fan of the WSM and he is a big fan of the Winchester Model 70 action as a base. 3. Mojet builds his own Remington 700 type action in majority of the WSM calibres. 4. Factory rifles are available from Winchester, Savage, Tikka and a few other brands. Hope this helps | |||
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| One of Us |
MD375, I took a look at the site for Ralph Badenhorst. Some really beautiful work there. Would be tickled to own any of his rifles. | |||
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one of us |
I have shot a lot of plains game with my 300 WSM and you couldn't go wrong with that. Also I like the short action and more compact rifle going through the bush. I wouldn't expect to find ammo for it in Africa though and if so it would be expensive. "In the worship of security we fling ourselves beneath the wheels of routine, and before we know it our lives are gone"--Sterling Hayden-- David Tenney US Operations Manager Trophy Game Safaris Southern Africa Tino and Amanda Erasmus www.tgsafari.co.za | |||
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| one of us |
The heat thing applies mostly to parts of Zimbabwe and Tanzania more so than RSA IMO.. 120 or much hotter on ocassion is the norm in late Nov. Dec. both in those parts of Africa and better compared to Presidio Texas area or southern Arizona In July and August. Heat will raise pressure up to a couple of thousand PSIs and I can't imagine more than that. The problems come from Africans more than Americans it seems as you don't hear of the problem in the USA very often. Actually I tend to shoot max loads in all my rifles and I have never had a problem. I'm pretty sure heat/pressure problems are man created for the most part. Apparantly some African in high places that write gun and hunting articles have made a big deal out of this as do some PHs who are mostly repeating what they have read read by some trusted scribes.. Simply put someone put too damn much powder in the case in the hot months or they left the guns on top of the truck hood and let them cook during lunch and midday naps in the bush..As many days as Ive spent in the bush, I have never seen or had this phenomenom... I know for sure most Africans believe they live in the hottest place in the world, but that's not a fact at all...South Texas, the Big Bend area, The southern border of Arizona and CAlifornia are every bit as hot as any place in the world with the exception of the middle East desert such as the Sahara.. Humidity? hot and humid in So.Texas and Tanzania as well, actually So. texas is the worse IMO...The world is pretty much the same, gold spots and hot spots all over it. Hunting in Nov. Dec. in Africa, drop your powder charge 1 gr. or 2 grs. if your ultra careful by nature..Also use powders that are not effected by climate, quite a few out there these days.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I wonder what the chance of being charged and killed by a wild animal is compared to being killed by a speeding or drunk driver on the nation's highways? | |||
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One of Us |
See numbers 3, 8, & 12 below. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Spot on. The myths that surround cartridges bend the laws of physics and rational thought. But apparently cartridge myths die hard. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles How popular (or unpopular) are the Win short mags in Africa these days?
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