I was always under the impression it was a no-no to use compressed loads of ball powder.

In searching for an accurate load for my CZ550 American in 9.3x62, I was advised to try Ramshot Big Game. I thought Winchester ball powders metered well... hell, this stuff is like a liquid!

Anyway, Ramshot doesn't have any published data for the cartridge but their ballistics tech sent suggested starting and max load data for using Big Game powder with bullets in the 250-290 grain range.

I haven't been able to find much accuracy with the Speer 270gr. or PRVI 285gr. bullets in my rifle, so I spent the dough and tried some Partitions.

When making up the loads, I found my Graf headstamp cases were full to the neck when I got to around 62 grains. The 63 and 64 grain loads were well into the neck and even after settling the powder by tapping the case, there was a nasty-sounding "crunch" and some fair resistance when I seated the long Partitions.

I went to the range a little leery of the loads. Turns out they shot very well with no signs of excess pressure. The 64 grain load shot under an inch and clocked at an average of 2403 fps. The standard deviation? Would you believe 2.1 fps?!

This particular caliber seems to give me lots of SDs in the single digits. Interesting....

I now notice that the Hodgdon reloading data web site shows compressed loads using Winchester 760 in the 9.3x62. I guess what I had always heard about compressing ball powder was incorrect?

Good shooting,
desmobob

It isn't incorrect. I've buldged cases and driven out primers with compressed loads of ball powders. Will it always happen? Evidently not. But it will happen.

Some of the primers that got moved out a bit were not discovered until they were ready to be used.

However, if it works for you have at it. For me, I will follow the once burn philosophy. roger

The concern for Ball powder was compressed loads that sit on the shelf for long periods of time (years). Comments are that Ball powder will fuse itself in clumps and burn unevenly.

Hey bob, as you know I squeeze 65gr of big game into a Lapua case with 286gr Partitions. No problems at all with an over compressed load.

Gotta love that BigGame in the 9.3x62.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
Hey bob, as you know I squeeze 65gr of big game into a Lapua case with 286gr Partitions. No problems at all with an over compressed load.

Gotta love that BigGame in the 9.3x62.

It was your recommendation that prompted me to try it, Steve. It works very well indeed. Thanks for the valuable tip!

Do those nice Lapua cases have more capacity than the Graf ones? 65 grains of Big Game fills a Graf case up to within about 1/8" or 3/16" of the mouth. A lot of tapping on the case with a screwdriver blade settles it down to roughly the bottom of the neck. Seating the bullet crunches it down into the case. =:-0

Shoots like crazy, though.... :-)

Good shooting,
desmobob

Good choice of motorcycles too...

Rich
DRSS
F4

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Good choice of motorcycles too...

Here's the old girl:



There's a '69 Triumph Daytona hard-tail springer in the garage too, waiting for some TLC. :-)

Good shooting,
desmobob

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
It isn't incorrect. I've buldged cases and driven out primers with compressed loads of ball powders. Will it always happen? Evidently not. But it will happen.

Hey Roger, was that "bulging" etc when you shot em, or while you were loading em Just wondering how much you "compressed" it
Might also depend on the case & other factors . I've always compressed loads in the K-hornet & other small capacity cases, and usually use ball powder. But it may be more critical in an overbore capacity case. I would think the 9.3X62 should be fine with that load.

I'm a guy that loves to compress a small amount of powder.....and I'm not sure why!!!

Ball powder fills the case so well that it leaves a very little amount of (relative) room for compression.

I've used a lot of ball powders and for some reason I've never compressed it so can't comment much except to say that if it works then do it!

For the 9.3 X 62 I'd prefer to use an extruded powder or a ball powder that required very little compression.

You might want to try vibrating the cases before just crunching down the bullet. With the French ball powders I gain significant space. I just hold the case near the center of my vibratory tumbler (bowl removed) a few seconds and presto, I gain sometimes 5%.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
It isn't incorrect. I've buldged cases and driven out primers with compressed loads of ball powders. Will it always happen? Evidently not. But it will happen.

Hey Roger, was that "bulging" etc when you shot em, or while you were loading em

While loading. It's been some time ,now, but I think it was when I was trying to compress a heaping load of 5020 in my .358 x .404 IMP. The primers being pushed out happened more than once or twice and I'd have to make a file search to be exact. To put this in perspective ,it possibly happened when the Winchester primer ODs I had on hand were measuring a little on the small size. Truely I don't remember for sure.

Trying to close a bolt handle on a primer that has been moved out with ball powder is a no-go happening. The primer pocket fills up with powder and you ain't going to push it back. From what I'm reading it seems that the compression in the 9.3 is not very great ?? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
From what I'm reading it seems that the compression in the 9.3 is not very great ??

To be honest, it's my first experience with a compressed load so I don't have any reference to judge the amount of compression.

All I can say is, it fit, nothing bulged or popped out, and the load shot like a dream with sub-MOA groups, good velocity and single-digit SDs. I marked it down as a keeper....

Good shooting,
desmobob

Not to hijack a thread, but man o man those Italians turn machinery into art

I've had good luck with compressed loads of ball powder in the past....used to do it with some H870 loads when you could still get it. I would vibrate or tap the case to settle it as much as possible and seat away. The only problem I got from time to time was the bullet might push part way back out of the case (OAL growing slightly).

To ID that this is happening you can mark the case neck/bullet line with sharpie. To prevent it from happening I found the Lee Factory Crimp die did wonders.

Might try different brands of brass to make it easier to repeat a certain load...

If it shoots well, and is repeatable from the bench, go for it! (Big Game has been very useful and consistant for me in the 375 H&H...)

Good Shooting,

Dan

Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Desmo,

seen the reports on the 1098 yet? Mamma Mia, dats'a some spicy duc!

Rich
DRSS

There are compressed loads and then there are COMPRESSED loads. A minor crunch when you seat the bullets isn't a bad thing, even with ball powder, but too much of anything is bad.
You can check your work by measuring the cases before and after you have charged them. If you are bulging them, even a minor amount that still allows chambering, I'd say it was too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Desmo,

seen the reports on the 1098 yet? Mamma Mia, dats'a some spicy duc!

Gives me a woody....

Good shooting (and riding),
desmobob

quote:

Originally posted by HondoLane:
Not to hijack a thread, but man o man those Italians turn machinery into art

It sure is nice to look at... I've had her 12 years and I still walk out of work to the parking lot, see the bike and say to myself, "Wow... what a beautiful machine!" And it's a joy to ride. AND, it's heaven to listen to! Nothing sounds nicer than an old desmodue duc with megaphones or straight-through cans. Sah-WEET!


Dan H,

I did notice some bullets popping back up a touch after seating. The Partitions have a very pretty crimp groove, so I used it. Problem solved....

Lee doesn't list a FCD for the 9.3x62, but they'll make one for $29. I guess I'll send them a dummy cartridge and have one made up.

Good shooting,
desmobo

Having shot the 9.3x62 for many years, I no longer use any ball powders. H414 was the best of the bunch for that caliber, but one thing I am certain of is RL-15 is the only powder for the 9.3x62. More velocity, better accuracy and no serious compaction.

IMO Powder should not come higher than half way up the neck at the most. and stopping at the shoulder junction is ideal, on a hunting round.

I have had the same results as described by Ray, and share the same opinion.

In all my years of handloading, I have avoided the heavily compressed loads, just because I could see no reason to use them. I have always found it easy enough to find an alternative, that gives high load density with little or no compression. Just right says papa bear.

Frankly, imo using loads compressed so much as to buldge something or push primers is getting into the realm of foolishness. The question is WHY would someone want to?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Frankly, imo using loads compressed so much as to buldge something or push primers is getting into the realm of foolishness. The question is WHY would someone want to?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by desmobob:
All I can say is, it fit, nothing bulged or popped out, and the load shot like a dream with sub-MOA groups, good velocity and single-digit SDs.

Good shooting,
desmobob

Next time I get somewhere that sells RL15, I'll try some. In the mean time, the Ramshot Big Game is my choice.

Good shooting,
desmobob

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
one thing I am certain of is RL-15 is the only powder for the 9.3x62. More velocity, better accuracy and no serious compaction.

IMO Powder should not come higher than half way up the neck at the most. and stopping at the shoulder junction is ideal, on a hunting round.

I have loaded R-15 in my CZ and you are correct it works very well. It is my experience that Ramshot BigGame produces higher velocities and better accuracy. What kind of velocities are you getting with 286gr bullets and R-15?

65gr of Ramshot BigGame loaded into Lapua brass comes just a tad bit above the top of the shoulder. Over 90% of the neck still free of powder.

I am getting 2425 fps from RL-15 in Graf cases and 286 gr Noslers fired in a 24" CZ. Shoots better than I do ... yields less than 1 MOA on the range.

They work like lightning on white tails, Impala, Warthog, Blue Wildebeast, and Zebra. The Kudu had not read "The Perfect Shot." I plan to use the load on black bear and piggies as well.

9,3x62 just works way better than one has a right to expect. I just do not see a reason to push'm any harder than that. No need.

I've settled on 65gr of Ramshot Big Game for my 9.3x62. I get very consistant velocity, 2425fps with 286gr Nosler Partitions and also Woodleigh 286gr solids. In the Graf cases I use there is noticable compression especially with the NP's. However, after leaving some "loaded" for 6 months and then shooting them over a chronograph I found no difference in velocity or accuracy of the loads. No I didn't leave these out in the hot sun for 6 months but that wouldn't be too realisitic, I assume some care in the handleing of ammunition.

Note: I tried the 65gr of Big Game under a 232gr Norma Oryx and was very happy with the results. The load rolls out at 2550fps in my rifle and produces 1 inch 3 shot groups. The best part is that it shoots that 1 inch group in the 2 to 3 inches high area when my rifle is sighted in zero at 100 with the NP's and Woodleigh's. Now I have a deer and antelope load that doesn't require fiddling with the scope when changing ammo. Might also prove handy on plains game hunts where some animals may present shots at longer range as 3 inches low comes in about 230 yds according to my computer.

You guys that are stuck on RL15 and tried H414, etc need to try Big Game. It has worked great in everyone's 9.3x62 that I am aware of with 65 grains and a 286 Nosler in mine is 2475. I had some of these I took on a black bear hunt a couple of years ago and compressing them didn't hurt a thing. Big Game will be faster than RL15 at least in my rifle, not a lot 65 fps or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Having shot the 9.3x62 for many years, I no longer use any ball powders. H414 was the best of the bunch for that caliber, but one thing I am certain of is RL-15 is the only powder for the 9.3x62. More velocity, better accuracy and no serious compaction.

IMO Powder should not come higher than half way up the neck at the most. and stopping at the shoulder junction is ideal, on a hunting round.

Just curious Ray, What do you base that last statement on?

I use a compressed charge of VV-N550 under the 250 gr X only. Superb accuracy, velocity and performance to date.

I have gotten 2520 FPS average for 10 shots in several 9.3x62s. I take out the high and the low velocity and average them..this is Lapua, and Norma brass, Fed 210, with the 286 gr. Nosler in my 26" barrel...

I am very careful to avoid compaction as in the African heat it has proved to be a bad deal over many years and many experiences with those who hunt there. I have seen bullets pushed forward over a period of time because of compaction and in some cases almost immediately. I have seen powders sit up like cement and I have seen these bullet fail..Full is full, ya gotta have room for a bullet.

Some get away it by loading them to the hilt and running out to the range and no problems. I have done that, but given time problems start and if one is hunting dangerous game he should cross the t's and dot the i's IMO

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Some get away it by loading them to the hilt and running out to the range and no problems. I have done that, but given time problems start and if one is hunting dangerous game he should cross the t's and dot the i's IMO

Roger

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I am very careful to avoid compaction as in the African heat it has proved to be a bad deal over many years and many experiences with those who hunt there. I have seen bullets pushed forward over a period of time because of compaction and in some cases almost immediately. I have seen powders sit up like cement and I have seen these bullet fail..Full is full, ya gotta have room for a bullet.

Some get away it by loading them to the hilt and running out to the range and no problems. I have done that, but given time problems start and if one is hunting dangerous game he should cross the t's and dot the i's IMO

That's interesting. I use a lot of compressed loads (ball & extruded powders) and haven't seen it. I've shot & dismantled 20 year old loads . I do crimp some of my hunting loads & that may help, but the uncrimped ones haven't ever done that either. Been doing it that way since the 60's and it gets pretty hot here in FL too . I always felt a slightly compressed charge actually contributed to uniform ignition since the position of a loose charge in the case can vary.
I'm not disagreeing with you, Ray. Just citing my experience with it. This is also the first time I've ever heard of it, from anyone. A friend, who was a gunsmithing instructor, used to load his 35 whelen by scooping a case full to the top (4895 IIRC), and squashing a 250 gr Barnes bullet down on it. He used that load for many years with no problems.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:
[QUOTE] A friend, who was a gunsmithing instructor, used to load his 35 whelen by scooping a case full to the top (4895 IIRC), and squashing a 250 gr Barnes bullet down on it. He used that load for many years with no problems.

I,ve done the same thing with the extruded or stick powders; no problem as there is a lot of unoccupied space with these powders. Now try the same thing with something like an 06 filled to the top with H335 or some other ball powder. Now seat a 180 gr. bullet to the junction of the neck to shoulder or deeper.Measure the OD at the body shoulder junction before and after. Measure to see how much the primer has backed out. Measure the OAL as soon as you seat the bullet . Measure it again an hour later. If you don't see some problematic occurance I guess I'll just retire to the roger

Brayhaven,
Please understand that there are compressed loads and compressed loads. By that I mean that a case filled half way up the neck is compressed a bit when a bullet is seated and that is good in a lot of cases, mostly dependant on the powder being used. Even a case full of old surplus 4831 compressed will normally be a good load and very accurate due to the lack of airspace in that case. IN the case of that powder and say the 30-06 the compaction is not a problem up to a point.

However, a case full of a powder that will set up hard is not a good thing. The .458 has suffered, and been suspect, in popularity over the years simply because it is very difficult to get 2100 plus velocities without compaction, all of the so called good loads for it have over 100% case capacity to deal with, and it has failed time and time again in Africa, and when hunting dangerous game compaction can and has gotten people in a world of trouble. Is it worth it would be my question? I do know that a .458 loaded to a lowly 2000 FPS or a tad more is a very effective load on anything, including elephant. Yet people continue to try and make it a bigger boomer with compacted loads. The real answer is to punch it out to a Lott or whatever suits your fancy.

If one is target shooting or shooting deer or non dangerous animals I doubt that a problem exits, and I know many that have shot overly compacted loads for years, self included, but the question is should we do that. I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between, it OK unless your hanging your life on the line. An ocassional loss of a deer due to a misfire is not a big deal to me, but it may be tramatic to one that has not hunted his whole life.

Bottom line is I like a full case with very light compaction at the most, just enough to omit an air space...

Like all things in life we have choices to make, and that's an individual thing, the consequences of those choices are ours to bear.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Brayhaven,
Bottom line is I like a full case with very light compaction at the most, just enough to omit an air space...

Like all things in life we have choices to make, and that's an individual thing, the consequences of those choices are ours to bear.

Dog gone it , Ray, you're just being nice again. I find it hard to BARE. roger

Until someone proves to me, and by that I mean empirically, that compressed loads using ball powders won't lead to .458 Win. Mag. clumped up, compaction of powder, low velocity to squib load type problems, I will stay away from them.

I do like compressed loads of stick powders in big bores - because they prevent bullet set back from recoil - and with proper crimping they present no problems.

Do reports of this problem not relate to one of the H&H loads, maybe even the 375, which in the distant past required the load to be extremely compressed? I seem to remember reading stories about manufacturers gluing the rounds into the cases to stop them from popping out under pressure from the powder. As a result the powder was prone to forming one solid block which didn't ignite very well. I recall reading somewhere about someone shooting elephant with one of these rounds and he was able to watch the bullet bounce along the ground in front of the rifle when he fired it.

The problem is associated mainly with original Winchester loadings of the .458 Win. Mag. using compressed ball powder.

I'll chime in, singing the praises of RL-15 in the 9.3x62mm, and in my rifle a load of RL-15 behind a RWS 258 grain H-Mantle just proved perfect on a Nyala, Waterbuck, and an Impala. Next trip I plan to add maybe another grain of powder to boost velocity past 2500 fps (my load chronographed 2480 fps)and grouped at the "magical" inch at 100 yards. I am in the experimental stages of proving to myself that the RL-15-19-22 Bofors powders really do match up to Norma powders which are also supposed to be from Bofors. So far with the 9.3x62mm, I think the statement is correct, but more experimentation is required.
LLS