I say no way they developed their "own" powder. Hornady has never been powder guys. Bullets, yes. Powder? Since when? They have a powder development facility? NOOOOOOO! They figured out how to load someone elses powder in a way to get what they want, but it ain't theirs! That's why they ain't selling or telling.

So whose is it?

I'm suspicious of RL22. Any other guesses?

Possibly something Australian...

No, I'm betting one of the VV powders, 165 or 560 depending on cartridge. It could also be a propriatory blend made for Hornady.

Perhaps it's not the powder but the 10' drop tube?

Anyway, Hornady doesn't load canister grade powders in their factory ammo. No one does except us reloaders.

The reason they are not telling is that they have developed a higher velocity load in several chamberings that can not be matched by you or me. Thus, we may be interested in buying that ammo, instaed of loading our own.They make more money on ammo than bullets, They built a better mousetrap and want to cash in-- nothing wrong with it.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
The reason they are not telling is that they have developed a higher velocity load in several chamberings that can not be matched by you or me. Thus, we may be interested in buying that ammo, instaed of loading our own.They make more money on ammo than bullets, They built a better mousetrap and want to cash in-- nothing wrong with it.

I don't think they load enough different cartridges for them to make more money by keeping it a secret versus selling the "new" powder out right. It's a loading technique not a new powder. 10 ft drop tube? Don't think so, but there is something "non-standard" going on.

No, I think once the secret is out, it will mean less money, not more, to Hornady.

A powder that will make "everyones" loads faster and more powerful? Keeping that from the general public to purchase is foolish.

Nope, it's a technique easily duplicated and unpatentable. That's the only logical reason I can come up with for the mystery surrounding this.

Duplex????

/

I happen to know how it's done!!!! You can do it too but it's a lot of hassle and not worth the time IMO!!!

There is nothing special or propriatary about the powder and Hornady buys from several suppliers.

I have duplicated the loads here in my own reloading room and so can you!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I bet I know how they do it !

They press the envelope of the rule using maximum charges of powders with faster burn rates than what we would normally do for that expansion ratio.

These loads are loaded to the hilt where normal commercial loads are often loaded to only 85 % load density and often to pressure limits way lower than the allowable maxiumum pressure cieling.

more bullshit from ALF.....nothing could be farther from the truth!

Rumour has it that there is a gel based propellant being used by some of the ammo mfgs to get higher velocities compared to keg powders. I am not sure if it will ever trickle down to the consumer market. And then again, rumours are worth what you pay for them.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Rumour has it that there is a gel based propellant being used by some of the ammo mfgs to get higher velocities compared to keg powders.

How would that work? They inject a viscous liquid-type gunpowder into the primed case? Something with a quality to do more work at the present pressures?

That would sure turn our present loading techniques on their heads, if the technology ever trickled down to our loading benches.

I've often vibrated cases to cause the powder to settle, thus giving sufficient room for slightly slower powders. An old electric shaver is turned on while laying flat and the base touched to it. I've definitely been able to load beyond the "book" compressed loads. To do this, you definitely need to watch for pressure signs.

It's always been "fun" to try to persuade just a tiny bit more RL22 into a 30-06 case

AD

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I bet I know how they do it !

They press the envelope of the rule using maximum charges of powders with faster burn rates than what we would normally do for that expansion ratio.

These loads are loaded to the hilt where normal commercial loads are often loaded to only 85 % load density and often to pressure limits way lower than the allowable maxiumum pressure cieling.

more bullshit from ALF.....nothing could be farther from the truth!

+1

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I happen to know how it's done!!!! You can do it too but it's a lot of hassle and not worth the time IMO!!!

There is nothing special or propriatary about the powder and Hornady buys from several suppliers.

I have duplicated the loads here in my own reloading room and so can you!!!

I'm all ears, or eyes I should say. How is it done?

/

I've been told (not saying by who) that it is a slow burning powder mechanically packed during the loading process. It's packed tight enough that some people who pull a bullet think that a liquid was used to stick the powder together but it's the same situation you can get with highly compressed loads that have sat for a while.

Several years ago I bought some Hornady Light Magnums with the 130gr interbond bullets. I usually use 60gr of H4831 with 130gr bullets and get a little over 3100fps in my Sako. I was curious how the Hornady could get over 3200fps. I pulled a bullet from one of the Hornadys and weighed the powder. It was a fine grain powder that had been compressed somewhat. The charge weighed over 63gr. I quit wondering why the Hornady was faster.

Fellow Loading affectionato's .

Magic is not an option when loading cartridges !.

onefunzr2



Posted 15 February 2008 03:07 Hide Post
Perhaps it's not the powder but the 10' drop tube?

Anyway, Hornady doesn't load canister grade powders in their factory ammo. No one does except us reloaders.



This is " Partially True ". How ever " ALL " Cartridges are Loaded with Manufactured powers .

What is different is " Additives " and Signatures in the powder !.

Remember when using a Reloading guide it's JUST THAT ! , A GUIDE . Nothing is etched in STONE .

Check one loading manual against another for same powder same projectile and often one will find a difference in charge weight listed !.

One thing you can bank on Maximum loads ALWAYS error
on the side of caution never reaching nor exceeding max pressures .

If anyone " Really " wants to know what that Hornady Magic Powder is ?. Remove it from the case or take it whole . DON'T MAIL or SHIP IT !. To a Lab for analysis , please call them prior to doing so .

I don't own any so I can't say what it might be .
Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

ALF Posted ;

Yes you called it BS when I stated I use a chronograph to plot pressure trends based on accurate measuring of velocity, I still and so do others ! Maybe you should stop stalking me and look around you to see where that comes from .
Dr.K
It generally is the only method available to reloaders is using a Chronograph as most don't own test barrels or the sensors associated with them .

How ever it's not the most accurate method by any stretch !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

I happen to know how it's done!!!! You can do it too but it's a lot of hassle and not worth the time IMO!!!

Case filled with a drop tube and case vibrated?
Rather tell us.

Warrior

Not sure all the hoopla about the hornady light mags is all that deserved anyhow. From what I've read they rarely get within 75fps of their advertised speed......NOW GO CHRONO SOME WSM AMMO......that stuff is downright amazing!!!

You can even exceed Hornady's "light magnum" performance. Maximize the amount of powder behind the bullet, by using the slowest burning powder you can and still achieve the operating PSI you want to work at. Over fill the case by using a long drop tube and tapping at the same time. I have been able to can get up to 68 grs of R25 in an RWS 3006 case. Then compress the powder with a 180 gr. NBT. You'll be amazed by the velocity - you'll have converted your 3006 into a 300 H&H. It's highly likely that Hornady has perfected a mass production/cost effective technique for doing this.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
You can even exceed Hornady's "light magnum" performance. Maximize the amount of powder behind the bullet, by using the slowest burning powder you can and still achieve the operating PSI you want to work at. Over fill the case by using a long drop tube and tapping at the same time. I have been able to can get up to 68 grs of R25 in an RWS 3006 case. Then compress the powder with a 180 gr. NBT. You'll be amazed by the velocity - you'll have converted your 3006 into a 300 H&H. It's highly likely that Hornady has perfected a mass production/cost effective technique for doing this.

Hmm R25. 68gr is quite a pile in a 30-06case. Really impressive but I can't say I doubt you. Do you need a magnum primer for that?

I made a drop tube out of a primer feeding tube that came with my reloading kit. it's about 16 inches long. when I use it to loade my 338 win cases, I get about 1/4 inch more room in the case. drop tubes make a real difference in load density

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
... Modern Naval and land based gun systems use a variation of in built or on board velocity measuring devices to do just this, the laying of a gun of this type in modern warfare is derived from this Yes you called it BS when I stated I use a chronograph to plot pressure trends based on accurate measuring of velocity, I still and so do others ! Maybe you should stop stalking me and look around you to see where that comes from ...

I'll just pull this one small portion out of all the normal alf because trying to actually communicate with him is totally wasted effort.

On the first part "Modern Naval and land based gun systems", the thread is about folks at home Reloading their own ammo. It has nothing to do with either "Modern Naval and land based gun systems" until alf tossed it in. It is way clear to me it is because he knows nothing at all about the subject and somehow expects them to be the same.

I was not aware Hornady was supplying Ammo for "Modern Naval and land based gun systems", so that also has ZERO to do with the thread or simply more alf
-----

Anytime I see you posting , you can count on me calling your worthless clinton on it. And it is obvious I'm not the only person who is tired of the totally incorrect and typically nonsensical alf posts. Pitiful! Call it what you like, stalking, or error correction for the Beginners, when I see the alf loonacy I do like to call it what it is - pure
-----

And NO, it is not even possible to get anywhere close to what the actual Pressure is in a firearm by looking at Velocity. Even with the fancy HSGS units Dr. Oehler said they can be easily off 8Kpsi. So, anyone thinking they can "guesstimate" the Pressure by looking at a Velocity really doesn't have a clue about what is going on.

Why in the world you would want to expose yourself as the biggest fool on the Board just doesn't make sense - but there it is, right in the open for even the Rookies to laugh at. It would not be a stretch to say - if alf posted it, it is pure -

N/

Magnum primers are not needed. The biggest problem is the bullet pushing back out. To get the maximum case neck tension, I full or neck size without the deprimer pin, fill the case with powder, and then seat the bullet. Also, some powders have quite high load density, such as VvN560; but, VvN560 works best with 150 or 165 gr. bullets. MRP works very well with 165 gr. bullets.

Thank you for your answer.

I'm suspicious from your answers and user name that you may have actually duplicated 300WinMag performance in a 30-06AI.

A very long discussion on AR within the past three years revealed that compressed powder loads were the method used to get the so called "Mini Magnum" loads by Hornady and other cartridge manufacturers. Kraky is correct in his original post. Trying to duplicate this with only a bench reloaders tools would be quite the problem and probably very dangerous to say the least. My knowledge is limited to that previous discussion. Someone with computor knowledge greater than mine can probably pull up the discussion for all to read. Good shooting.

Using this technique, which is not dangerous when working with very slow burning powders and keeping a close eye on your primer pockets, one can duplicate factory 300 H&H performance with a std '06.

But remember, one can also use this technique to enhance 300 WM performance, thus achieving 300 Ultra Mag performance. But, the more "over bore" the cartridge becomes the less enhancement one finds, that is until even slower high energy powders are developed and made available to the public. (Look for the availability of VvN570).

If you're interested in this technique, I recommend you buy a copy of Quick Load from NECCO, wherein the effect is clearly illustrated within the workings of the program.

Besides myself, GSSP (who posts on the board) has also achieved outstanding performance with the '06 AI - that is, 180 gr. velocities over 3050 fps. (Another means of enhancing performance is to use longer barrels - 26")

Regards and safe shooting, AI

They use a powder That been developed For the FPS they want a bullet to go.Down the road We might be able purchase it or shell I say the cat gets out of the bag. Thats what I think happans.

IIRC, they would put part of the charge in the case, compress the hell out of it, add more powder, compress again then seat the bullet. it seems to make sense to me as I broke down a round of the Hornady ammo in 30-06 and one of the Federal brand as well. The powder seemed to be the same (in appearance) in both brands of ammo and IIRC, bore a strong resemblance to being possibly a ball type powder.
I still have a few rounds of each brand and i suppose I could break one more of each down to confirm the powder type. The only thing I can say is neither of those 180 gr. High energy type loads shot worth a damn in three difefrent 30-06 rifles I have. They did deliver the velocity within 40-50 FPS of what was advertised but in one rifle 4" groups were the norm and none did better than 2.5" at 100 yards.
I found both brands of ammo to be a great disappointment. Of course, YMMV.
Paul B.

Years ago the manufacturers were using a non canister grade of propellent for their medium cal. magnum loads. After a lot of poking and prodding IMR put it out in cannister form..we know it today as IMR-7828.

Now Fellas what makes any of you think the powders that are used for commercial loads aren't cannister grade powder ?. Other than trace elements for identifying purposes . I E Remington , Winchester , Hornady so on and so on . THEY MOST CERTAINLY ARE !. What some of you are missing is the Primers aren't !. Can't buy " Factory " primers not available to the GP !.

Paul B ; I'm glad YOU pointed out the fact that FPS don't = accuracy in MOST cases . Pun intended !!.

If some outfit manufactures a NEW Cartridge that goes 50 FPS faster than someone else why is everyone biting at the bit to HAVE IT ?.

P T Barnum nailed it didn't he !.

Now powder manufactures are ALWAYS DEVELOPING NEW powders or refining older ones , which may not be available for the market yet !, but they will be !. It's what they develop them for !. Market Supply Demand capitalism it's the American way !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Actually the Hornady Light mag stuff shoots very nicely in my 30-06. If I could duplicate the performance and fine tune the accuracy slightly by handloading that would be ideal.

I understand that the High Energy and Light/Heavy Magnum cartridges get their increased velocity from the use of powders that are slow-burning for the given cartridge's bore volume and from compression of the powder by a combination of vibration and swirling as it's loaded into the case.

That was the "inside scoop" when these rounds were first introduced several years ago. From my experience, it sure does work. I can get just about 3,000 fps in my rifle using the Federal HE .338 Win. Mag. loads topped with 225 grain TBBCs. And they are accurate, too.