Back in November I bought a Weatherby Vanguard, 30-06, plastic stock. The trigger was so bad I sent it back to Weatherby before even firing it, they adjusted it, but it was still bad. I was getting serious vertical stringing, I free-floated the barrel, put a Timney trigger in it, and was starting to get decent results, close to 1 MOA with hand loads. Then...

A couple of weeks ago I was at the range and it was misting rain, so when I got home I took the barrel loose from the stock to clean and oil it. Then last weekend I go to shoot it and it's scattering rounds all over the place, some groups worse than 2". I check my scope (a Leupold), rings, etc. can't find anything wrong. I get disgusted and go home.
Then today, same thing. I take the barrel and stock back apart, put them together being careful to tighten the hold down screws evenly and then the feeder ramp is binding in the magazine (commmon problem with this gun). I take it apart again, reassemble, and start shooting. The groups are back to decent, but I had to adjust the scope down 2.5 MOA to get the same POI I had originally.
Is this common with these cheap Butler Creek stocks? I'm afraid to take the thing apart again, and I don't even want to think about taking it hunting until I get this resolved.
Any advice? Would glass bedding help? I see that Midway sells Carson&Bell replacement stocks for Vanguards - has anyone tried one?

I paid $400 for this gun, another $100 for the Timney, and now I'm thinking about a new stock that costs $229. I could have had a Browning A-Bolt for that. What should I do?

Uh......have you considered taking up bow hunting?

Personally, if I take a stock off a rifle its a resighting job. I think its a bit much asking to be able to pull the stock off and replace it and still have the exact same point of aim. A 30/06 shooting 1.5MOA consistently I wouldn't be complaining about. Check however that your not overtightening the screws and bending the action, if the barrel is floated some rifles shoot better with upward pressure at the forend tip. If your losing confidence in the rifle then it may be better to sell...
Cheers...
Con

Mcinnis
If you wish to get a rifle that you will not have ANY problems with, get a Blaser R 93.
I have been shooting rifles for 40 years or so. the Blaser IS the only Bolt Rifle that has given me NO problem of ANY kind.

Sorry Johan [and other Blaser R 93 critics] but it is the simple truth, I have no financial or ego stake in this info, it is simply my experience.

Yeah Con, I'll take 1 1/2" on this gun consistently, and I can even accept that I'll have to rezero it every time I take it apart. But I was seeing groups a lot bigger than that, and some big-time fliers. It makes me worry that the action isn't supported well enough. I'm going on a once-in-a-lifetime guided elk hunt this fall, and I bought this gun for a backup. One that I could drop in a river or down the side of a cliff and not worry about it too much. I've never owned a gun with a synthetic stock before - should it be so sensitive about how hard I tighten the screws?

And yes Jumptrap, I own a bow, why?

Here is a nice 30-06 for sale that does not have the problems yours has:





Personally I have found that there are no savings in a cheap gun.

McInnis,
The only Butler Creek I've owned was fitted to a Zastava in 458WM and it held up pretty good, both strength and accuracy wise. But if your worried then how about pillar bedding it? If you need to swap out the stock then like you said the cheap gun is not cheap anymore. Comment about how tight screws are is that on a wooden stock most people know when to stop but on a synthetic you can really really crank the screws tighter than they need to be. Your reloading right, and your seeing the odd flier or is it consistent group one minute and a crap one the next? Scope is okay? Reticle's not broken (had that happen once!), clamp the gun in a vise and dry fire it, does the reticle jump? Scope and mounts are tight? Don't mean to offend but your okay shooting a 30/06, not scared or getting hurt by it? Lastly, I've a Brno Hornet that pulls pranks like this and the only way to get it to shoot accurately, consistently is to clamp down on the stock like there is no tomorrow, its the only hold sensitive rifle I have. Also... when your test firing it are you using a benchrest?
Cheers...
Con

Con, I was getting one decent three-shot group, then the next one might be two-and-a-half inches. After I took everything apart and reassembled then it shot three groups that were between 1 and 1.25". I really believe that I didn't have everything quite right after I put it together last time, but what bothers me is I can't tell what.
Like I said, this gun was bought for a backup only, my first gun is a Browning, 30-06. It will shoot 165 or 180 grn Gamekings under an inch all day long and when I take it apart to clean, I've never worried about putting it back together, and I very seldom have to rezero it.

Aye, and what would you be wantin' for that 30-06, 500? Kudude

I would pillar bed it, then fill the deep voids with that spray foam insulation. After that dries, cut out the high spots and fill it Brownells acraglass. Bed the action and the barrel. this should provide a good foundation for your rifle.

If I had another scope, I would install it for one range session just for piece of mind and eliminate one of the variables to your problem.

500grains and NE 450 #2, He said it was a truck gun

Terry

McInnis

I would bed the action and first half inch or so of the barrel.

Factory rifles have a crap bedding setup for the action which is one reason they have the pressure point at the forend. Free floating a factory gun and not bedding is a lucky dip as to the results.

In short, a free floating barrel needs to be on an action that is properly bedded.

Mike

TC1,
Think about it. Even if it is a "truck gun" or a "backup" it needs to shoot good and work 100% of the time. The Blaser R 93 WILL.
And being a take down it will take up less space if used as a spare rifle.

I would definately check the scope - had a burris go south on me the exact same way - one good group - then all over the place.

On an aside - one does not have to spend a ton of cash or buy imported to get 100% reliability. I dunno maybe me and my family is weird but of the 150+ guns that have come thru the house we never seem to have had the "catastrophic" failures others on the net seem to have on a regular basis. I dunno maybe like all the .125 inch groups that get shot with keyboards - many expirence small problems and turn it into "I was being charged by a rabid prarrie dog when that POS turned into a tomatoe stake in my hands".

I am in no way saying that is whats up here but other than the Pinto - I have never heard so many problems with "insert gun mfg here".

There are hundreds of guns that DON'T cost $3000.00-$40000.00 that will work flawlessly and 100% of the time. The idea of a R93 truck gun is just silly.

Besides, the R93 isn't bullet proof by any means.

Terry

McInnis,
Maybe your just worrying too much about it? Sounds like you fixed whatever it was. Wax the underside of the barrel to protect it, put it back together, rezero and be done. Once zeroed I wouldn't even clean the barrel. Remember it's your back-up, not the primary gun.
Cheers...
Con

TC1, The synthetic Blaser is way less than $2000.
I use mine for a truck/ATV gun all the time.

Loonie, instead if having 150 rifles or so, why not have 2 Blaser recievers and 4 or 5 barrels.
That along with a double rifle or two should cover the planet Earth.

Well that may be true - I could also say a Ford escort - one pair of pants and 2 shirts would do me nicely and need nothing else. Need never enters the equasion.

I was simply commenting on the fact that there always seems to be a gazillion stories about gun xyz that is crap, blew up and has no use. (other than the rem 710 which is ) And those stories always seems to start with "I knew a guy, I talked to a guy at the range, My sister has this friend who..." ect. I mean come on they haven't made as many guns as we hear failures about. Same goes for bullet failures recovered from dead animals.

One never knows where our guns/ammo interests can take us in the future.......BUT, I pray to God each night that nothing will occur in my life that will cause me to go down the road of Blasers

Mike

Amen...

i don't think rifles are supposed to be taken 0ut of the stock very often, think about it the scope is attached to the action, the barrel is actually what fires the round and controls it during firing. with the scope being attached to the action, any stress on the barrel that is different than the way the scope was sited in will cause the gun to fire differently. taking the action out of the stock will do this. I think you should put a heavy lube on your barreled action that will be under the stock and LEAVE IT. If you want an action that comes out of a stock and goes back in close to the same you need a stock with an aluminum bedding block. Or I would at least have your stock glass bedded and leave it alone

Maybe that's the best advice Cowboy. I shoot muzzleloaders a lot and I have to take them apart anc clean them after every time I shoot, so maybe I've gotten too used to that. What type of rust preventative to you use for the underside of the barrel - motor oil maybe?

My Howa 1500 did not start shooting to its potential until it was installed in a Bell & Carlosn Medalist stock. That's the one with the aluminum bedding block.

I've also never understood the concept of losing point of aim simply by removing the rifle from the stock and reinstalling it. The sights never move in relation to the bore axis. If you use a torque wrench and follow the same tightening sequence every time, the rifle will be almost exactly on.

I was hoping someone had tried the Bell & Carlson stock. From what I read, no glass bedding is needed with it - true? Can you remember how much smaller your groups got when you installed it?

McInnis, I believe B&C's claim that no epoxy bedding is necessary.

My Howa went from being a 1 1/4 MOA shooter to a 3/4 MOA shooter. I never bedded it with epoxy, glass, whatever. Just plopped it in and snugged the action down consistently and carefully.

Be aware that in my experience, Howas with hunting rifle contour barrels like the pressure pad built into both the factory Butler Crap and the B&C stocks.

all kinds of stuff can effect how the gun shoots if you take it out of the stock. I have a gun that when I first got it the bolt was a little stiff and didn't move as free as I liked it. I took it out of the stock to adjust the trigger put it back did my usual snugging of the screws ie not over tight, and the action cycled much better, I eventually free floated the barrel which further relived the stress on the action, now the bolt cycles like its on ball bearings. just the slightest amount can cause the action in some cases to bind or at least move slightly, which moves your impact. I bet you will have better luck with that B&C stock, the aluminum is CNC machined to perfectly match your action, so if its made right you should be able to torque the heck out of the action screws and not have adverse effects, not that I would. you should have nice even pressure on your action. however I would still want to resite my rifle after I took it out of the stock even with an aluminum bedding block. As for muzzleloaders, I shoot an austin and halleck, sub MOA baby

I bought one of these "WalMart Specials" in 300 Weatherby because the price was right and it had a good target with it. It shot 2.5-3" groups. Fortunately Brownells had Bell and Carlson stocks on sale for $100 off and I put one on it. Now it shoots 30 cal sized groups and you can take it in and out as you want. I'd recommend the stock fix.
I ended up with about $585 in the gun by the time I was through. Not a bargin I grant you but it is now a good shooter with a good trigger.

NE450 My "truck" gun is a Sears FN Mauser in 270 with the open sights only. I think I traded a Ruger Blackhawk and a few bucks to get it. never had a single problem and shot great from the very first. It was a used rifle (stock and bluing show honest wear) and I picked it up for the action. It was such a good shooter I've done nothing to it.

most importantly I didn't have to buy a blaser

Red

Dago,
An FN Mauser is an FN mauser no matter whose name is on the barrel!