quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I thought this an intresting read. The question of "are there inherintly accurate cartridges" addresed from a historical point of view. And a strong case for the .308 if you are considering a 30-06.


http://askville.amazon.com/30-...o?requestId=65573828



lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.

There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.
Sources: http://www.snipercountry.com/A...es/AccuracyFacts.asp

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
Apparently few actually read the OP's post by Bart Bobbit very carefully. I've heard the same thing from top Highpower and Palma shooters for over a decade - and new powders will make no difference. If that was the case, then the new short cartridges wouldn't be winning in "modern" long range competitions against the long/skinny .300WinMag, 6.5-06 etc. It's about the length of the powder column, not the powder type. The closer to the primer, the more consistent the velocity. But of course there are always those who will defend their favorite cartridge to the death, the hell with facts....

Really guys, the difference was seen at long range - 600+ yards - where slight differences in extreme spread will affect bullet drop. Lower ES, smaller long range groups. For most of us, there is no practical difference between the two cartridges.



BTW, the last time I measured a C*** hair it was a bit smaller than 1/2 moa...

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quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
What effect will this have on a deer at 150 yards?

quote:

Lower ES, smaller long range groups.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
What you have "heard" is from people who have only shot the 308 and have no experience with match grade 30-06 rifles and ammo using current technology. The fact remains that if the quality of the weapon and components are equal, the bullet that goes subsonic LAST will be the most accurate. The bullet with the highest BC and resistance to wind will be the most accurate.
The 30-06 wins on both counts.
Nobody is trying it today and everyone repeats what they heard or read..... with no machine rest, serious match rifle shootoffs.
Numerous articles in Handloader have put to bed the myths about case shape/length/shoulder design meaning anything, most recently with the 300 H&H vs the 300 WSM.
Until some well heeled shooter builds a super 30-06 the myths will prevail.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
What you have "heard" is from people who have only shot the 308 and have no experience with match grade 30-06 rifles and ammo using current technology. The fact remains that if the quality of the weapon and components are equal, the bullet that goes subsonic LAST will be the most accurate. The bullet with the highest BC and resistance to wind will be the most accurate.
The 30-06 wins on both counts.
Nobody is trying it today and everyone repeats what they heard or read..... with no machine rest, serious match rifle shootoffs.
Numerous articles in Handloader have put to bed the myths about case shape/length/shoulder design meaning anything, most recently with the 300 H&H vs the 300 WSM.
Until some well heeled shooter builds a super 30-06 the myths will prevail.

Not going to get into all the mudslinging. However, I challenge you to call up Nosler, and ask them which two rounds they use to test their 30 caliber bullets for accuracy at standard and magnum velocities, and why they chose them.
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
What you have "heard" is from people who have only shot the 308 and have no experience with match grade 30-06 rifles and ammo using current technology. The fact remains that if the quality of the weapon and components are equal, the bullet that goes subsonic LAST will be the most accurate. The bullet with the highest BC and resistance to wind will be the most accurate.
The 30-06 wins on both counts.
Nobody is trying it today and everyone repeats what they heard or read..... with no machine rest, serious match rifle shootoffs.
Numerous articles in Handloader have put to bed the myths about case shape/length/shoulder design meaning anything, most recently with the 300 H&H vs the 300 WSM.
Until some well heeled shooter builds a super 30-06 the myths will prevail.

Not going to get into all the mudslinging. However, I challenge you to call up Nosler, and ask them which two rounds they use to test their 30 caliber bullets for accuracy at standard and magnum velocities, and why they chose them.
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:

Numerous articles in Handloader have put to bed the myths about case shape/length/shoulder design meaning anything, most recently with the 300 H&H vs the 300 WSM.
Until some well heeled shooter builds a super 30-06 the myths will prevail.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
What you have "heard" is from people who have only shot the 308 and have no experience with match grade 30-06 rifles and ammo using current technology. The fact remains that if the quality of the weapon and components are equal, the bullet that goes subsonic LAST will be the most accurate. The bullet with the highest BC and resistance to wind will be the most accurate.
The 30-06 wins on both counts.
Nobody is trying it today and everyone repeats what they heard or read..... with no machine rest, serious match rifle shootoffs.
Numerous articles in Handloader have put to bed the myths about case shape/length/shoulder design meaning anything, most recently with the 300 H&H vs the 300 WSM.
Until some well heeled shooter builds a super 30-06 the myths will prevail.

Not going to get into all the mudslinging. However, I challenge you to call up Nosler, and ask them which two rounds they use to test their 30 caliber bullets for accuracy at standard and magnum velocities, and why they chose them.
Matt

Why not just tell us? Inquiring minds want to know.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
What you have "heard" is from people who have only shot the 308 and have no experience with match grade 30-06 rifles and ammo using current technology. The fact remains that if the quality of the weapon and components are equal, the bullet that goes subsonic LAST will be the most accurate. The bullet with the highest BC and resistance to wind will be the most accurate.
The 30-06 wins on both counts.
Nobody is trying it today and everyone repeats what they heard or read..... with no machine rest, serious match rifle shootoffs.
Numerous articles in Handloader have put to bed the myths about case shape/length/shoulder design meaning anything, most recently with the 300 H&H vs the 300 WSM.
Until some well heeled shooter builds a super 30-06 the myths will prevail.

Not going to get into all the mudslinging. However, I challenge you to call up Nosler, and ask them which two rounds they use to test their 30 caliber bullets for accuracy at standard and magnum velocities, and why they chose them.
Matt

Why not just tell us? Inquiring minds want to know.

Nosler uses the 308 to test their 30 cal bullets at "standard" velocities (Not sure what velocity parameters are), and they use the 300 WSM to test at "magnum" velocities. Their test data also indicates that the 308 is the most accurate overall with bullets up to 168 grains, while the 300 WSM has an edge with 180+.

I would like to point out that the 06' and the 308 often have different throat and lead dimensions. Either can be optimized for accuracy with a given bullet by tweaking reamer specs, barrel twist, length etc. this can be said for most any round. I think most accuracy issues with the O6 stem from the fact that the throat is designed to handle bullets up to 220 grains, .i.e very long. The 7x57 is often labeled inaccurate, but give a throat and lead like a 7-08, accuracy is vastly improved with most modern hunting bullets. Just food for thought. I like the 06 and own a couple, played with several. Same with the 308. However, I think most of us who have played with both rounds at the reloading bench know which one is generally more accurate, and easier to work up good loads for. For you enquiring minds, that would be the 308. I don't shoot targets or bid game much past 250 yards. Shot coyotes way on out there. Point is, most big game hunters don't care how accurate a round is at 800 yards. They care about hunting ranges, and the edge goes to the 308.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
So?

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
So?

So, all of our opinions are like @$$ holes, and everyone's got one. The 308 vs 30-06 debate has been raging since the 308 was introduced in the mid 50's, and it will likely never stop. I like them both, and will never not own both.

quote:

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06.