When using the Greenhill Formula, the 1/16" twist won't quite stabilize a 250gr. bullet (appx. 1.37" length). I'm not necessarily upset because I custom built a 35 Whelen on a VZ-24 Mauser action and it wears a 1/14" twist A&B barrel, which is perfect according to the formula.

Now I am also considering purchasing a Remington CDL in the venerable Whelen caliber just to have another, but I am concerned about its twist rate. Any comments that anyone would like to make would be appreciated.

My best guess is it's because they already had the tooling from producing 35 Rem. barrels for 760's in the distant past and a bean counter said don't get any new tooling. If that's not the case then they simply don't understand the uses a 35 Whelen can be put to when made right.

Doesn't Remington only produce factory ammo in 200gr? That's probably why.

But, the Whelen actually shines best with 225 and 250gr bullets.

I concur that it doesn't make much sense.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Doesn't Remington only produce factory ammo in 200gr? That's probably why.

Remington also makes 250gr. 35 Whelen ammunition. SEE HERE---Scroll down, Part# R35WH3.

quote:

Originally posted by stocker:
My best guess is it's because they already had the tooling from producing 35 Rem. barrels for 760's in the distant past and a bean counter said don't get any new tooling. If that's not the case then they simply don't understand the uses a 35 Whelen can be put to when made right.

stocker, I think that you have got to be correct. The highest bullet weight offered in the 35 Remington is a 200 grainer, and a 1/16 twist would be fine for that application. The only thing that doesn't quite "jive" with your statement is that I wonder if a 760's barrel is the same contour as the CDL.

Woodsracer: The tooling referred to was the buttons etc. for cutting the rifling. Barrel contour is likely identical to a lot of other barrels they are already programmed to cut but in any event would not require retooling although a software adaption might be made if required for computer programmed lathes at small cost.

I believe they also used the same twist (1/16)for the 350 rem. Mag. That caliber had been produced on short actions and they were probably limited by magazine length which made use of the real heavy bullets (270-325 grain) impractical and 1/16 generally does handle 250 grain bullets well.

Yep, bean counters and lack of imagination..

woodsracer,
Can't remember who it was here, but I was told the Greenhill formula really predicts a very well over-stabilised projectile. Do a search on my user name as it was under a month ago.
I'm just waiting for some 310gr Woodleighs to arrive to test in a Rem700 BDL in 35Whelen. At this point both Remington 250gr RN and PSP are fine in its 1:16". From the tests I've read using a 35Whelen and 350RemMag, the 1:16" will stabilise the 300gr, but the Whelen appears to have originally been built with 1:12", probably for the 275gr Hornady and 300gr around at the time. Not sure why Remington picked a 1:16" but I'd bet they were aware most "average" hunters are recoil conscious, most rifles would be used on deer and the 200gr is adequate for that and the 250gr factory ammunition that was put out.
Cheers...
Con

Woodsracer,
Thanks for the clarification.

I was thinking of the 350 Rem Mag ammunition.

Probably use the same tooling to make all the 35 caliber barrels 35 Rem, Whelen, and 350 RM and just chamber them different.

THis is just my not very humble opinion, bur remington and Ruger both had their heads up their asses when they decided to use a 1 in 16" twist. I have three rifles chambered to the Whelen, a Remington 700, Ruger 77 RS and a custom Oberndorf Mauser that I picked up at an estate sale. The Mauser fits me so well that it might as well have been made just for me. The Remington and Ruger just barely stabilze the 250 gr. bullet at 200 yards and I'd hate to see what the groups will look like at 250-300 yards. The Mauser however, has a 1 in 14" twist and 200 yard groups are about 25 percent better.
In an American Rifleman article in the late 1960s early 1970s, C. E. "Ed" Harris make some interesting comments on the .35 Whelen. First, it was designed for bullets 250 to 300 gr., not 200 as viewed by Remington and Ruger.The cartridge was designed for heavy game, not deer. It was supposed to give the average guy a rifle potent enough for Grizzly Bear, elk, moose and the like that was affordable by simple reboring or rebarreling a 30-06. Magnum length actions cost well over $200 just for the action, and a common 1903 Springfield could be had for a reasonable price, restocked, and rebored or rebarreled for less than, or just about the cost of the plain magnum action.
I'm planning another .35 Whelen, this time with the proper 1 in 12" twist.
No bean counters will screw this one up.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
In an American Rifleman article in the late 1960s early 1970s, C. E. "Ed" Harris make some interesting comments on the .35 Whelen. First, it was designed for bullets 250 to 300 gr., not 200 as viewed by Remington and Ruger.The cartridge was designed for heavy game, not deer. It was supposed to give the average guy a rifle potent enough for Grizzly Bear, elk, moose and the like that was affordable by simple reboring or rebarreling a 30-06. Magnum length actions cost well over $200 just for the action, and a common 1903 Springfield could be had for a reasonable price, restocked, and rebored or rebarreled for less than, or just about the cost of the plain magnum action.
I'm planning another .35 Whelen, this time with the proper 1 in 12" twist.
No bean counters will screw this one up.
Paul B.

Paul, I appreciate your comments greatly. I have P.O. Ackley's two volume set, and somehow, I forgot the HISTORY of the Whelen. It took you shaking me to wake me up. In Vol. 1 of Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Mr. Ackley shows bullets ranging from 150 grs. all the way to 300 grs. Even more interesting, on page 472, he notes that the Standard twist is 1/14" and the Special twist is 1/16".

I'm with you though, I think it should be a minimum of 1/14", and your idea of 1/12" sounds much more adequate and reasonable IMHO.

Yep, I think the bean counters and marketing dept screwed up big time.

Paul B,
Thanks for the history lesson. I imagine most of 35's get used for deer in NA. Most people would generally opt for a "magnum" to hunt what the Whelen was originally designed for.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
I imagine most of 35's get used for deer in NA. Most people would generally opt for a "magnum" to hunt what the Whelen was originally designed for.

The reknowned Craig Boddington has written a great book called "Safari Rifles." I also have this in my library. I'd like to take a few quotes out of his comments on the .35 Whelen on pgs 46-47 and condense it here for information sake.

quote:

I have not taken my .35 Whelen on safari yet---but I intend to. I have used the rifle on moose, elk, black bear, and wild boar, and it is one of the surest killers I've ever used. Its 250 gr. bullet has the weight and the frontal area, and it does wonderful things without undue recoil and muzzle blast.

Mr. Boddington also went on to make the following remark:

quote:

At a recent sportsmen's show, a guy asked me what I thought about the .35 Whelen for Cape buffalo. As must be obvious, I'm a heavy-caliber proponent---especially when it comes to dangerous game. But this guy had a legitimate problem. He and his wife were headed to Africa, and she wanted to take a buffalo---but was uncomfortable with recoil, even at .375 H&H levels. I thought back to my first use of the .35 Whelen, on a very large Alaska-Yukon moose. The range was about 60 yards, and that bull was as big as any Cape buffalo that walks. At the shot he simply went over backwards, landing with all four feet in the air, lights out. Yes, I would use the Whelen on a buffalo, provided I was close enough---but not too close---and could place my shot on or just behind the shoulder. I would use a good softpoint on the first shot, but I'd try to get some solids to back it up. Chances are, now that this .35 is so popular, Art Alphin will turn out some of his A-Square Monolithic solids in .358 diameter. If he would, you wouldn't have a great buffalo gun---but you could sure get by if you had to.

Phew, that took some typing, but I think it was worth it to show doubters what a great caliber the .35 Whelen really is.

BTW, just recently I looked for some 250gr. Barnes solids in .358 caliber. Unfortunately, Barnes has discontinued this projectile, but I found THREE boxes left in stock ONLINE at Wideners. Those last three boxes are on my reloading shelf as I type this.

the 1 in 14 twist works very well in my Mauser

Does the 1/16 twist help when shooting plinking rounds loaded with handgun bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Does the 1/16 twist help when shooting plinking rounds loaded with handgun bullets?

My 1 in 14 shoots the 125gr pistol bullets great

So, if going for a new Whelen, would the consensus be for a 1 in 14 or a 1 in 12? Which will do the best job of stabilizing bullets from 225-270 grains?

quote:

Originally posted by duckster:
So, if going for a new Whelen, would the consensus be for a 1 in 14 or a 1 in 12? Which will do the best job of stabilizing bullets from 225-270 grains?

My vote is for a 1/12" even though I own a 1/14".

Put me in the camp that says Remington screwed up when they went with the 1-16" twist for the .35 Whelen. A 1-12" or 1-14" would have been better. My 9.3x62 CZ550 has a 1-14" twist by way of comparison.

I always thought that the Whelen would be more useful for heavy game with a 275 gr bullet (SD =.307). At around 2300 fps that would make the Whelen very close to the 9.3x62 with its 286 gr (SD =.305) standard load at 2360 fps.

And no, I'm not a Whelen basher. My new Remington 700 CDL in .35 Whelen was delivered to my gunsmith yesterday. So now I will have a .35 Whelen AND a 9.3x62. Life is good!

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
And no, I'm not a Whelen basher. My new Remington 700 CDL in .35 Whelen was delivered to my gunsmith yesterday. So now I will have a .35 Whelen AND a 9.3x62. Life is good!

-Bob F.

If you don't mind, UPDATE US with what your 100 yard groups are with 250 grain bullets please.

I think I might like to have a 9.3x62. I've always wanted a Mannlicher styled rifle! Very European.

A couple years ago, I chose the 9.3 x 62 in a CZ-550 over the 35 Whelen as my large game rifle caliber due in large part to the standard twist issue......1-16" in the Whelen vs. 1-13.3" in the 9.3 (actually 3 turns per meter, I think). My opinion--the 35 Whelen is a GREAT game caliber that is severely hamstrung by its "standard" twist rate.

The CZ does GREAT work with the 286 grain Nosler Partition--just over an inch at 100 yards/5 shots. That close grouping makes up for the recoil management discomfort, for sure!

woodsracer,

It will probably be a while before I get to shoot my new 700 CDL in .35 Whelen. My gunsmith is going to give it the "going over" for bedding, trigger, action tuning, etc.

However, I used to have a Ruger M77 MkII in .35 Whelen. (This was a special run for Davidson's a few years ago.) So, I have done some shooting with a .35 Whelen. I never hunted anything with it though. A friend wanted the Ruger M77 really bad so I sold it to him. I got a craving for another .35 Whelen so that's why I bought the new Remington.

Here's one of my loads for the Ruger M77 in .35 Whelen back when I owned it.
The Ruger also had a 1-16" twist.

Date: 1/20/2002
Cartridge: 35 Whelen
Firearm: Ruger M77 MkII
Scope: Vari-X III 1.5-5x
Barrel Length: 22"
Bullet Make: Hornady Spire Point
Bullet Weight: 250
Powder Make: RL-15
Powder Weight: 55.0
Case Make: W-W (.30-'06)
Primer: WLR (standard primer; not magnum)
C.O.L.: 3.30

Chrono:
Shot # Velocity fps
1 ___ 2,413
2 ___ 2,379
3 ___ 2,430
4 ___ 2,401
5 ___ 2,414
6 ___ 2,418
7 ___ 2,425
8 ___ 2,411
9 ___ 2,416
10 __ 2,409

Summary
Average Velocity: 2,412 fps
Average Energy: 3,230 ft lbs
High Velocity: 2,430 fps
Low Velocity: 2,379 fps
Extreme Spread: 51 fps
Standard Deviation: 13 fps

This load would group around 1.0 to 1.25 inches (at 100 yards) all the time when I did my part.

I think the 1-16" twist probably works fine with the 250 gr bullets but I still wish Remington would have standardized the twist for the .35 Whelen at 1-12" or 1-14".

-Bob F.

This is classic... Most cartridges can stand to have faster twists... especially considering many bullets (premium) are longer these days. 1-12 even a 1-10 on the 35 whln isn’t unreasonable. The 375 H&H, 416s, 458s can also stand a sharper twist.

My Rem. 700 Classic has the 1 in 16 twist. It shoots extremely well with Fed. 225 gr. TBBC, usually less than 1 inch at 100 yds if I am doing my part. I also get good accuracy from handloads using 225 gr. Sierra BT. The Remington factory 250 gr. roundnose are slightly more accurate than the spitzers. I have also used Nosler Custom loads and the 250 gr. Partitions shoot 1 inch or less.

So is the faster 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist only for the heavier bullets, like the 270 grain Swift or longer bullets like the X-bullet? And by going with that faster twist, will you lose some accuracy with the 225 grain slugs? (I consider this weight the best all around choice for the Whelen)

I think the 1 in 12" twist will shoot them just fine.
Paul B.

When I built my Whelen on a 1903 Springfield in 1967 I put a Douglas 1 in 12 twist on it and it does just fine with every bullet from 180gr to 275gr.

Barstooler

I am a big fan of heavy for caliber bullets. This being said, there are quite a few modern rifles that are not really up to snuff in this regard. Besides the 35 caliber, 22 centerfires and 44 magnum rifles really stand out. The standard 1/14 twist for most 22 centerfires really won't stabilize anything above 55 grs. Many 44 mag rifles, especially Marlin, continue to use 1/38 twist, which pretty much limits a person to 240 gr. bullets. With the high quality of todays bullets, overstabilization is very much a non-issue within reason. More manufacturers should really take a close look at appropriate rifling twists in their firearms, make the necessary equipment upgrades, and offer more suitable firearms for today's firearm users.

quote:

Originally posted by Ballard4590:
I am a big fan of heavy for caliber bullets. This being said, there are quite a few modern rifles that are not really up to snuff in this regard. Besides the 35 caliber, 22 centerfires and 44 magnum rifles really stand out. The standard 1/14 twist for most 22 centerfires really won't stabilize anything above 55 grs. Many 44 mag rifles, especially Marlin, continue to use 1/38 twist, which pretty much limits a person to 240 gr. bullets. With the high quality of todays bullets, overstabilization is very much a non-issue within reason. More manufacturers should really take a close look at appropriate rifling twists in their firearms, make the necessary equipment upgrades, and offer more suitable firearms for today's firearm users.

You nailed that one on the head!!! I've been looking for a heavy barreled .308 Win for some LR target practice and they all come with 1/12" twists!!! Come on manufacturers, catch a clue. Give me at least a 1/10 .308!!! I'm thinking I need to build a quick twist .308 next so I can get rid of 500 some odd 210 grain Bergers that I have left over from my .300 Win Mag days. A 1/8" twist on a .308 would be really fun, but the bullet's path would look like a rainbow!!!