I've ordered my first custom, a New Ultralight Arms (NULA) 30-06, and for my purposes it will do what I need if I ever go to Africa, let alone in the US. The problem is that while I've respected the 30-06, I've never liked it, so I'm thinking about changing the caliber to 270 Winchester, which I've always liked, or to 308 Winchester, which uses 30-cal bullets.

The problem, of course, is that the 270 might not make as big an exit hole (less blood) and be harder to track, and the 308 might be just marginal on power, or at least less power than the '06.

Those are the calibers - 270 and 308. Any comments on the 270's exit hole or the 308's killing ability on Kudu and smaller out to 250 yards?

Jaywalker

If you never liked the 30-06 I'm having trouble understanding why you ordered one? Why would you consider going to a lesser gun the 308 than the 30-06?

What do you intend to use it for? If primarily deer or antelope-sized game at longer ranges, then a .270 would be a little the better. If primarily something no larger than black bear and usually at 200 yards or less, then you're as well off with the short-actioned .308. But if you want versatility, meaning more margin for larger game and longer ranges, then the .30-06 is exactly what you're looking for.

Dear jaywalker

Go for a 308 with 180 gn premium bullets and all will be fine. Winchester Silvertips are great in 180 gn with kudu. The 270 will also do the job but the 308 is far better. The lower velocity of the 308 aids deeper penetration on the thicker skinned antelope than the faster 270's.

Regards

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
I've ordered my first custom, a New Ultralight Arms (NULA) 30-06, and for my purposes it will do what I need if I ever go to Africa, let alone in the US. The problem is that while I've respected the 30-06, I've never liked it, so I'm thinking about changing the caliber to 270 Winchester, which I've always liked, or to 308 Winchester, which uses 30-cal bullets.

Is this a test in absolute silly shit? You spend good money for something that is the major player in the three cartridges mentioned and want to change it because it does not appeal to you.? You must have way too much money. That possibly being the case , why not get a .270 and a .308 built instead of converting the 30-06? Oh, by the way the .308 is a nonsence hunting cartridge when compared to the 30-06. roger

My, oh my, some folks are cranky! In order:

Jay, I ordered it because it is the best for my purpose. I don't, however, consider lower velocity to be equivalent to a "lesser gun." I haven't said I've changed it, simply that I'm considering it.

Stonecreek, for North American critters, it's a wash. My purpose is to find something efficient, fun to shoot, i.e., very accurate, while still capable of taking plains game in Africa, should I go.

MarkH, thanks, that's much of what I had in mind - lower velocity means, often, greater penetration and a bigger exit hole.

bartsche, that's somewhat harsh, don't you think? It is less than accurate, also.

Jaywalker

MarkH - no disrespect intended, but IMHO Winchester Silvertips and pentration are mutually exclusive.

Flip a coin, load heavy for caliber premium bullets and shoot them into 2" to 3" groups from field positions out to the distance you want to kill something.
Go anywhere you choose.

jw,your cencerns have merit,many people do fine hunting africa with 270s 30-06 308 whatever the choice may be, load or shoot premium bullets the caliber's your choice also all rounds stated have proved themselfs over and over on many continents peroid. guys lighten up its a good question, regards jjmp

Perhaps I believed everyone understood the word "ordered" as I do: "ordered but not yet received." I don't have the rifle in hand yet, and the maker, Mel Forbes, tells me I still have time to change the order. Still, I think I have from this thread all I need. Thanks to those who participated in the spirit which I intended.

Jaywalker

Make life more interesting, get something a little different that has a little of both calibers

280

Get Yourself a 280 rem or 284 win, both about the same performance level and would be great for what you want.

But In my oppinion look closely at the 7mm WSM, it will easially provide 30-06 performance, be flatter shooting and the rifle might be slightly lighter as well.

When I hunted plains game in 1987, I brought a pair of Winchester 70s in 6.5x55 and 375H&H. I shot everything, except a wart hog, with the 6.5x55 and Norma 156 grain factory loads. The eland was dead on its feet, but I didn't want it going far, so I shot it through both shoulders with a second shot and it went down in a heap. Proper placement of a properly constructed bullet is the key. If you learn the skeletal structure of the game you're planning to hunt, you'll know where to aim to break bones. The PH was a little worried at 1st, but he came around when he found that I had studied plains game anatomy and that I could shoot the 6.5x55 from the sticks to his satisfaction.

Jeff

Jeff

IMO plains game are flat out over rated.....even the Eland, while it can go 1500 pounds, will succumb to a proper shot from a .270 or less.

That said for my return trip I'll not use less than a 30-06 and will likely use a .338-06 if I get it built in time. The difference is that it's a $1,000 shot at a Kudu, Gemsbok, Zebra, Woldebeest, Eland or other game of that size.....meaning you pay the trophy fee if you draw blood. If it gets away you still pay the fee.....and this means I'd like to smack them harder than otherwise. Just something to think about when you decide which caliber to use,

JayWalker:

In looking at the Weatherby Ultra Light, the rifle itself, I could not see where that package would interest me, with the exception of the 7/08, or the 338/06... I could easily be talked into a 270 or 30/06... but that would be with a much lower price tag than the rest of them run....

I still think the 06 you ordered, would cover life just fine...

Many people who dislike the 30/06 do so, because it does what it does, with regularity so consistent, it becomes boring to a rifle nut...

may calibers may be an alternative to a 30/06... but each time, they are justified because they do "this" or do "that" just a little better than the 06... but none of them ever do EVERYthing better than the 06....

I don't hunt with my 06s very much as I like playing with other cartridges.. and swear by my 6.5 mm cartridges....

But I'd never be without a 30/06 or two... In fact many rifles I have rebarreled were 30/06s and I kept the barrels to each one of them.... a twist and remove one barrel, and they can be right back to being 30/06s in no time flat...

I don't know how any AMERICAN gun person can not have at least one, 30/06 and one 30/30 in his rifle collection....

cheers
seafire

If I get to go to Namibia in 2008, I'm going to take a pair of Interarms Mark X mannlichers in 7x57 and 9.3x62. That said, I can't think of a non-dangerous African critter that would go far with a .277" 150 grain Partition shot through its lungs or shoulder blades. Besides, don't you have to do something to make the trackers earn their tips?

Jeff

JayWalker
The 308 is one of my favorite calibers.
Of the non magnum calibers it is the best for ME.

Why??? Because I used it for Metalic Sillhoute, 3 gun matches, High Power, hunting, and as a work gun.
I have shot a lot of game with the 308.

However the 30-06 is probably a better choice for most other people.

You can use Federal or Remington low recoil loads when hunting up close, and Federal High Energy when shots are far away, or game is bigger than elk.

You can never go wrong with a 308 or a 30-06.
Nothing wrong with a 270 either.

The caliber you like the best/have the most confidence in is the one for you.

There is (was) a NULA in 280 for sale in the GUN LIST for $2300 or $2400, I can't remember which. It might be a good deal for the right guy.

Jeff

quote:

The problem is that while I've respected the 30-06, I've never liked it

If you want some real good advice here's the first thing you need to know. Don't buy something you don't/won't like. My father always said if you don't get what you want, you won't want what you got.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
My, oh my, some folks are cranky! In order:

bartsche, that's somewhat harsh, don't you think? Yes I do! It is less than accurate, also.I'm sorry. I really meant it to be togue incheek, Some days I just get carried away

Jaywalker

roger

"Ultra Light Arms Model 24, 280 Rem, matte blue, black stock, with rings, as new, $2300, Andy at 507-645-6472"

Gun List 06/16/06 page 41

Jeff

I don't understand what is "Not To Like" about the 30-06. It has taken everything that is huntable, around the world. It is THE single most popular cartridge, around the world. It is a bullet, brass, primer and powder, just like all the rest. If it were me, I'd take the 06'. But since you don't particularly like that cartrudge, take the one that spins your bottle and have an enjoyable time. Killing/retrieving game is going to come down to how well you placed your shot anyway. The three cartridges you are considering will all do the trick. Have a great hunt!

quote:

LBGuy: I don't understand what is "Not To Like" about the 30-06.

It's a sordid tale that's taken me 40 years to admit...but I was abused as a child by a 30-06. Here I was with my first rifle... Everyone said, "Trust it. It will always take care of you!" I got it for Christmas in snow country, so I couldn't shoot it for months. I did clean it and stare at it a lot, though. I still remember it - a Santa Barbara Mauser (!) action and a two-groove barrel from Golden State Arms - $55 from MOntgomery-Wards... On dry-firing (again, a lot!), it felt like I expected such a high-quality arm to feel - a very resounding "clunk" from the firing pin, and for a high-quality rifle, there was a high-quality trigger that needed both my first and middle finger to pull. (Thirty-five pounds is about right for a trigger, right?)

Imagine my first shot - off a bench, iron sights, 35-pound trigger, 172g Ball ammunition. I was moved by the emotion of the situation. (In retrospect, perhaps I was moved more by the "recoil" of the situation...)

I fired that rifle as frequently as my free ammunition held out in order to "get used to the recoil," as I was advised... Because of the bruising, of course, I had to hold it more loosely toward the end, more away from the shoulder, but somehow that didn't seem to help, and the groups got larger...

I felt guilt. Here's this quality rifle that I should trust, and somehow I'm causing it to fail in its mission...

Since then I've had Magnums and I've had less powerful rifles, and lighter rifles that likely recoil more than a 30-06 (my 6-pound Ruger Ultralight 270 comes to mind), but until recently I've avoided the '06, or even discussing it positively. Here's a sample, "A 30-06 is likely a fine rifle for a person who needs ONE all-around rifle. If you have TWO rifles, then the 30-06 is absolutely redundant, a compromise you need not make." (Jaywalker, in another forum.)

Still, 40 years is a long time to carry a grudge, and I'm thinking about one now, and that's a big step.


Jaywalker

Jaywalker
I am moved to tears by your sad tale of abuse. I can only remind you that all 30-06's, or any of the other calibers for that matter, are not alike. Some are kind, tender, even gentle, companions who are a joy to hunt or just go shooting with. I strongly urge you to seek a competant therapist, or bartender, who can help you come to grips with your tragic experience. Above all, remember that in the end, it is your fault. If you had had the braims of a flea you would have gotten the trigger adjusted, any competant gunsmith could have done it with a sledge hammer and a torch, and had a real shooter.

On a serious note, for game the size of Kudu or smaller, at 200 yards or less; I doubt that there is a bucket of warn spits difference between the 270, 308 or 30-06. It's your money, get what you like.

The 30-06 is a boring gun, everything that you shoot with it just dies.

TerryR

TerryR,

Thank you for your kind and supportive words of "tough love." I can only suggest that while a 12-year old may well have the brains of a flea, he also has the money of one. I did eventually have a gunsmith adjust the trigger (Knights in Ft. Worth, IIRC), it cost the equivalent of 35 yards' worth of lawn mowing @$0.75 per yard, i.e., the whole, long, hot summer of yard-cutting. It was done in time for Fall hunting season, but I was too poor to lease land in Texas - another, long, sad, tale...

This rifle, sold for rent some years later, became the first in a long string of rifles sold at a loss. This is yet another tale of abuse, but fits more under "self-abuse," I think.

It does feel good to admit these abuses, however. It's like a (seven-pound) weight off my shoulders...

Oh, and for 260remguy, a NULA on sale will do me little good, as I've already paid Mel Forbes - but thanks.

Jaywalker

Do you seriously think there's enough difference between the three cartridges to merit one over the other???

quote:

ManCannon: Do you seriously think there's enough difference between the three cartridges to merit one over the other???

Probably not, if you're at WalMart and asking the guy behind the counter for his advice. I expect a bit more hair-splitting here, however. Please note in the intro not a general question, but two specific ones, to wit:

quote:

Those are the calibers - 270 and 308. Any comments on the 270's exit hole or the 308's killing ability on Kudu and smaller out to 250 yards?

Haven't seen much in the way of answers to those, yet... Would you care to contribure some facts?

Jaywalker

Jay - hardest kicking rifle I ever shot (the one that hurt the most) was an 06. Haven't liked em since, plus they are highly effective but so vanilla. Get a 280 Ackley and have a ball. Of course, the 06 (or 270) will do the job.

Because the three are so identical, you have to split hairs to see the difference. Want to know the difference in exit hole size??? Take your calipers, you'll need them. Killing ability??? Both have been taking such game for a long long time at that range. But seriously, if the 270 won't do the job, is the 308 going to? NO!!! Pick whichever floats your boat, 'cuz there isn't two shits worth of difference in performance... Until you split hairs. BTW, game animals don't know how to split hairs

Can't say I disagree - that's why I'm looking for facts that might show I'm mistaken. Exit holes might well be different depending upon velocity. Still looking for facts in lieu of opinions, of which I already have plenty.

Jaywalker

Jaywalker
I have never used the 270, but I have taken deer sized game out to 300 yds with both a 7X57 and a 30-06. My experience is that the difference in performance is so small that you are far better off basing your decision upon felt recoil or your confidence in the round than the size of exit holes. All of your choices will work extremely well for Kudu sized game out to 250yds. Pick the one that feels right to you and you won't go wroung.
BTW I was kidding about the brains of a flea, but that is about the size of the difference between these rounds for that application.

TerryR

Hey Jaywalker

If you want facts then using Taylors Knock Out Value using norma factory ammunition and their heaviest load

270 - 16.5 (150gn)
308 - 19.54 (180gn)
3006 - 20.8 (180gn)
My 375 H+H homeload - 38.57 (300gn)

The conclusion is obvious if you dont like the 3006 get a 308. Easy to shoot, easy to get ammo, short action, quick reload. If a shot is going to be marginal then that extra bit of momentum over the 270 could save you a lost trophy.
Field shooting is all in the mind, if your comfortable and confident with a cartridge you'll shoot it well so whatever anyone says the 3006 is not for you.
If you read the Perfect Shot then reducing MV,s by 100fps can improve terminal preformance on African game, so by the time you download the 3006 by 100fps you have built a 308 cartidge.
308 is your only logical choice based on the ballistic facts.
Also ask your outfitter what he would prefer to see out of a 270 or 308. I'm sure the answer will be 'whichever you feel most comfortable with' and failing that the 308.

Regards

Mark

Thanks, all. I agree - nothing new here.

You may be aware that JJHACK, an African PH who posts here occasionally, likes the 30 cal for this kind of hunting. He sees no difference in killing power, either, between the 30-06 and the 270. He does find, however, a difference in exit hole size in favor of the '06, and a resultant improvement in blood trail in a dusty environment of herd beasts which are doing their best to trample all the blood into said dust.

That's one point of view, albeit a very experienced one. I was looking for others.

Recoil is no longer the issue - it's just I don't like the 30-06. Still, I'll get one and learn to love it, or I'll get the 308. I think the 270's out now, at least.

Jaywalker