With all the talk of favorite calibers and cartridges what really is the level we all might agree upon which would constitute a reason to use more gun? Meaning is a .22 LR different enough from a .22 rimfire magnum, or need we go to a .222 Remington to see a SIGNIFICANT difference. Or would an example such as the .30-30 versus a .35 Whelan be too large a void of performance? Get the picture?
Time to sit back and enjoy a beverage...

well, a 22RF makes holes in squirrels and crats, the 222 makes squirrels into jerky, and crats into two pieces. Once you move up in caliber and animals, it is more on bullet construction, and whether you have a fetish for trying to knock the dogpiss outa deer when you shoot em, not just shoot em. But, if you load a super thin jacketed bullet in the 30-30 at a moderate range, it could do more damage than the 35 with a partition type bullet. There are more variables like shot distance, and muzzle velocity, bullet weight for caliber, but I feel that is a halfway decent explanation.

Kinetic energy @ long ranges with the 30-30 could be lacking, along with penetration on larger than deer sized animals. The 35 could be more versatile to the handloader, cause you could load down for deer, and load hot and heavy for larger animals. Some folks say the Whelen is a decent bear round, go figure. Personally, I hunt deer with a 375 RUM, refer to the fetish mentioned earlier.

This is taking into account what is ideal under normal circumstances.

Varmints Small Game
.22 lr inside 50 yards
.22 Magnum inside 150 yards
.22-250 to 500 yards

Varmints(Coyote)/ Medium Game (Antelope/Deer)
.243
.30-30

.7mm Mag/30-06(Black Bear/Moose Caribou)
.300 Mag

Large American Predators
.338 Mag-.340
.45-70
.375 HH

Large Dangerous Game
.375
.416
.458
.470

For pistol cals 200fps more for the same bullet weight.

For rifle calibers 100 grs of bullet weight differants at same vel. Plus at least 3 caliber size differants. Or a 400 fps gain in vel for the same cal and bullet weight.

Over wise one well not see any differants in preformance. Even then it might be hard to tell on only a couple of critters.

When I go to the range I hope that something different will happen. I have changed a load or done some tweak to the rifle and while I should just look at science I wish for magic.

Same thing when I go hunting as one gun may be lucky or I may want to air a new one out.

As to game I see a theory of relativity to the situation and the effect of the bullet. Of course larger game takes more effect. It's all a lot of fun that has kept me interested all these years and I am just as enthusiastic as ever.

I am not sure there is a quantifiable answer. My general rule of thumb has been as follows, if both cartridges do the job equally well, than there is no significant advantage. For example, there isn't anything that could be taken with a 300 Win Mag that couldn't be taken with a 30-06. However, a 338 is a significant improvement over the 300 and 30-06. In that line 22 Mag isn't much more than a 22, an extra 50-100 yards of performance. But a .223 or 22-250 is significant. Probably not much help, but it adds fuel to the fire.

John

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
With all the talk of favorite calibers and cartridges what really is the level we all might agree upon which would constitute a reason to use more gun? Meaning is a .22 LR different enough from a .22 rimfire magnum, or need we go to a .222 Remington to see a SIGNIFICANT difference. Or would an example such as the .30-30 versus a .35 Whelan be too large a void of performance? Get the picture?
Time to sit back and enjoy a beverage...

OK, Here's kinda a gut shot at answering your question (hope you haven't had so many beers by now that you can't remember my answer!)

Take the 30/06 and...

1) IMO - The 280 Rem., 270 Win. nor the 6.5/06 wildcat would not be enough of a step down to justify a similar rifle in any of those calibers. However, a 25/06 would!

2) IMO going up - An 8mm/06, 338/06 nor a 35 Whelen would not be enough to justify a similar rifle in those calibers. However, a 9.3x62 or a 375 Whelen would!

PS: This logic depends somewhat on where you start! If we started with a 270 Win. the caliber down and the caliber up would be different.

Interesting question.....

IMO if a new cartridge is introduced that don't beat the former one by 10% in velocity it should be ignored.

Having said that there is also a limiting returns factor that says: No matter how much faster the new cartridge is, the recoil is so bad that I can't shoot it anyway.

Examples: I see no advantage in any of the 7MM Magnums over the 280 Remington.

I see no advantage in the .300 RUM over the .30-06. Wow...am I gonna get flak over that!!!!!

I see no .375 cartridge as better than the .375 H&H

For the most part when the game is big game (not DG) there's no advantage in anything bigger than .338 caliber......and the .30-06 might just be enough for all of it anyway.

We have been sold a bill of $h*t in all the magnumitis we have IMO.

Gentlemen, thank you for the responses. I do believe we all contributed to the general line I was attempting to get at. I guess my diet Coke hasn't blurred my abilities too greatly so let me add...

That Vapodog's comment "We have been sold a bill of $h*t in all the magnumitis we have IMO." This a very accurate statement IMO as to what is being marketed to shooters and the general thrust of my querre was to establish various steps in power, or versatility which can easily observed by a shooter/hunter.

P dog shooter's comment; "For pistol cals 200fps more for the same bullet weight." I absolutely agree whole heartedly with.
But, on the rifle calibers issue his comment:
"For rifle calibers 100 grs of bullet weight differants at same vel." Well like the way I raised this question... I find a bit vague because of the weight ranges of some calibers don't meet the 100 grain criteria. I believe what he was alluding to was energy, and with that I fall closer to agreement.

Thank you all.

Well, from the counter-culture's perspective, your question seeking definition of such inexactitudes, and inverse relativity...and after consulting the millionth angel to alight on the pin head...the answer remains, as always...it ain't what, it's where. Other insignificance pales in comparison.

Long Live Coastal Artillery!
Ferget the Wind!
Long live the 16" Gun!


Regards,

Dan

I would say that a "Significant Difference" in all actuality has to be the difference in Point Blank range. My reasoning for this is that for 95% of the population of hunters if the bullet drops enough to require a "hold-over" the game animal is probably too far for them to shoot at. Now, for us gurus that frequent these forums and spend alot of trigger time at the range, hold overs or "dial ups" are not that difficult but, to the average Joe they are.

Say you take a cartridge and the maximum rise and fall of the bullet is 3" high to 3" low. That would be a good point blank range for whitetail sized critters. The "Significant Differnce" IMO would have to be for a cartridge to provide at least another 40-50 yards to the above 3 and 3 example.

For Instance, let's take the 30-06 loaded w/ a 180 AB at a speed of 2700 fps. It will give you a PB range of 280 yards. In that 270 yards the bullet will never rise more than 3" and will never fall more than 3" and will result in a good Big Game load where the average hunter can aim "Dead On" and limit his shots to 270 yards as long as he is praticed w/ that particular given load.

Now, take that same bullet, but push it at 3100 fps in the 300 Win Mag. And the hunter's bullet will not rise more than 3" or fall more than 3" out to 310 yards.

W/ the 300 you added 40 yards to your effective "Dead On" hold.

That may not be significant to many, but to many it will be quite significant and may give them that slight edge they were looking for to hunt that particular park or that particular field.

Even though it may not be a "Significant" advantage in manys eyes, it is an advantage, that advantage will have a different importance to every individual.

(No Flames on the 30-06 to 300 scenario Please, it was just the first two I thought of).

Good Luck

Reloader

On a side note:

With your numbers, 2700 gives 280 yards,
3100 fps gives 310 yards.

So you can divide the speed by ten, to find out how far you can shoot point blank range?

For the guy who wishes to own only one gun, a 30-06 can do most things - it can be stretched up and down with some compromises.

Lighter bullets (such as 150 grainers) at 270 Win velocities and heavier bullets (200 to 220 grainers) at lower velocities for bigger game at closer ranges. More versatile than any other medium bore caliber.

However, for the guy with more money who prefers a battery of rifles more appropriate for specific applications,I am sure one can justify having any number of calibers up to between 5 to 10 different calibers, even though your wife might find this hard to swallow,as it could be more than the pairs of shoes in her closet.

My 2 cents worth.
Your choice remains your own business.
Chris

Truvelloshooter, I think you have hit the mother load. We all should aspire to match the number of rifles/calibers to the number of pairs of shoes oin the wifes' closset. I am sure that Digital Dan concurs! LOL That's great. Off to the closset to count now!

I have more guns than my wife has pairs of shoes and I think I'll keep it that way.

Hoeram

quote:

I have more guns than my wife has pairs of shoes and I think I'll keep it that way.

I hear ya.

SSSHHHHHHH! Don't tell her that .

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Nortman:
On a side note:

With your numbers, 2700 gives 280 yards,
3100 fps gives 310 yards.

So you can divide the speed by ten, to find out how far you can shoot point blank range?

No, the B.C. of the bullet plays a big role. A 405 gr. flat nose 45-70 bullet moving a 2200 ft.sec. will not have a point blank range of 220 yards. Just as a 32 grain .204 bullet moving at 4000ft.sec. will not have a point blank range of 400 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I see no advantage in the .300 RUM over the .30-06. Wow...am I gonna get flak over that!!!!!

O.k. I had to bite. I think that over 600 ft. per second, and 1000+ ft./lbs of energy with the same bullet weight is a pretty big difference.

Ballisticians consider 300fps the minimum velocity spread to be "ballistically significant" with regard to one cartridge over another.

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I see no advantage in the .300 RUM over the .30-06. Wow...am I gonna get flak over that!!!!!

O.k. I had to bite. I think that over 600 ft. per second, and 1000+ ft./lbs of energy with the same bullet weight is a pretty big difference.

Why did I know someone would take the bait!!!!!
1. The real difference adjusted for barrel length and reloaded to the same pressure is only about 400'/sec
2. I used the word "ADVANTAGE"....yes there is a difference......but no advantage. (at least to me)
3. Dead deer is dead deer.....regardless of how hard we whack him.
4. If we can't get it done with the .30-06 then a larger caliber is in order.....not more velocity in a same caliber.

But hey...it's your money.....I'll bet you never carried a featherweight rifle around all day.....it's worth the very little it costs in performance. The .30-06 will do anything the 300 RUM will do when one is hunting and has to carry the rifle himself. I now only have one of my three 300 magnums. The two .300 Win Mags have been sold and only the .300 H&H is left to hold the honors of 30 caliber beside the .30-06. And that magnum too will go to a good hunter when I find him. The cure for magnumitis is a .30-06 and a plains game safari to see the truth. More isn't always better.

Yes. Vapo for Prez.! You can have too much gun.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I see no advantage in the .300 RUM over the .30-06. Wow...am I gonna get flak over that!!!!!

O.k. I had to bite. I think that over 600 ft. per second, and 1000+ ft./lbs of energy with the same bullet weight is a pretty big difference.

Why did I know someone would take the bait!!!!!
1. The real difference adjusted for barrel length and reloaded to the same pressure is only about 400'/sec
2. I used the word "ADVANTAGE"....yes there is a difference......but no advantage. (at least to me)
3. Dead deer is dead deer.....regardless of how hard we whack him.
4. If we can't get it done with the .30-06 then a larger caliber is in order.....not more velocity in a same caliber.

But hey...it's your money.....I'll bet you never carried a featherweight rifle around all day.....it's worth the very little it costs in performance. The .30-06 will do anything the 300 RUM will do when one is hunting and has to carry the rifle himself. I now only have one of my three 300 magnums. The two .300 Win Mags have been sold and only the .300 H&H is left to hold the honors of 30 caliber beside the .30-06. And that magnum too will go to a good hunter when I find him. The cure for magnumitis is a .30-06 and a plains game safari to see the truth. More isn't always better.

Well I agree on the most part. But I hunt Nilgai probably 10 times a year in S. Texas. To say the energy difference isn't an advantage over a .30-06 isn't quite accurate. I have shot several with a .30-06, several with a .300 ultra, seen them shot with anything from a .270, 416 Rem, 378 Weatherby. Without pointing out the details I think the .300 is a quite an ADVANTAGE over a .30-06 when hunting these animals. Some will say, why not use a .338 or bigger? Well in my mind a .030 bigger wound entrance is of no significance whatsoever, and don't think a .375 is needed. Not to mention many of the shots on these animals are 250 to 350 yards, and 150yard running shots are common, as they are very spooky critters. I'll take the flatter shooting of my .300 ultra over a .30-06 or 375 every day. Could I become just as accurate with my .30-06 out to 350? Of course I could. But the extra energy is a big plus, especially since exit wounds are very uncommon on nilgai.