The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 280 Remington or 7mm Rem MagGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I am thinking about a 7mm myself, but I have already made up my mind that it will be a 280 AI. Commercial brass is now available and see little effective difference between it and 7mm Rem at practical ranges out to 400 yards. Barstooler | |||
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the 7mm mag simply offers more versatility than the .280rem. Much like then .270 Weatherby does over the .270win. Copper Monometal softs by design, have more rapid killing effect when they hit around 2600fps and above. a 130gn momometal lauched at 3400mv from the magnum, will still impact around 2600fps at 400yds. Hiting below that 2600 vel. they have proven to exhibit a slower kill. If your going to use your rifle for a know variety of game,hunting ranges & conditions,and require certain performance parameters, the magnum may be the better choice. I would rather have a cartridge that offers 100fps over the minimum velocity required for optimum bullet performance, than one that offers 100fps below that required for optimum bullet performance. Even if I only ever use a 7mmMag or 270weatherby out to 300yd, I confidently know the bullet will perform optimally, without bordering. If I knew i was going to be shooting at 400yd regularly, I would go for a7mmSTW that begins the bullet at 3600mv delivering 2800fps at 400yd. ...out to 250yd 280rem would suffice. If optimum bullet performance was not ultimately required or desired, you could settle for a slower impact velocity and still satisfactory kill...thus opt for a smaller capacity 7mm cartridge. | |||
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Has the economic crises hit The British Empire so hard?  | |||
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There are things that when they come to mind will always be the Thought of First Choice.. The 7mm Rem.Mag. is one of them.. AK | |||
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Well in truth I never really liked the notion of redlining anything,and these days just like it better getting a sedate 3200 fps from a 7 Rem Mag with a 140  This is easily achieved in the larger case without pushing anything really hard,rather than chase that velocity with a smaller case.Just how I like to roll....JMHO, but I think a guy is operating "top-end" with a 140 at 3150 from a 280;and certainly at 3300 fps with the same bullet from a 7 Rem Mag, and I don't like the practice anymore. The extra capacity of the Remigton 7 mag is not ever wasted in my view,and is helpful when it comes to the 160 gr bullets which I like for larger stuff than deer. But I can't help but feel that the real magic in the 7 magnums comes not from the extra speed with lighter bullets, but the high velocity with the 160-175's...this is what seperates them from the smaller 7's in my view. As to comparisons with the 270,IME and given equal barrels,a 280 with a 140 does about the same as a 270 with the same bullet weight....at least with charges I find "comfortable".In shooting game with both, I could never see a difference between them. | |||
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I agree with your statements, but I am curious how you are comfortably getting to 3200 fps with a 140. I have two different rifles with 26-inch barrels and I have not found a recipe for better than around 3150 without pressure signs using 139 Hornadys. | |||
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The 280 was designed to equal the 270 but at 4K less pressure. (58K Vs 62K) Given the slightly larger case as well as slightly larger bore cross section, when loaded to the same 62K SAAMI 270 pressure, the 280 will push a slightly heavier bullet @ similar MV if all other factors are equall.. Mv in the 3100+ fps range for a 140 gr bullet in the 280 is not "redlining" anymore than loading the 270 W/130 gr pills or 7mm Mag W/140s @ similar chamber pressure when they are being used in similar rifle actions. If remington had loaded the 280 to to 270 pressure in 1957 when it was introduced, it would have made the 7mm Mag somewhat redundant in 1962. Who would have wanted a heavier rifle that exibited increased recoil & muzzle blast just to gain 100 fps. The original factory 7mm Mag (140 gr) performance has been scaled back about 100 fps since the intro. Were those early loads "redlining" the pressure? From what I have been able to glean from published infromation, the 7mm Mag was/is prone to pressure spiking thus the reduced factory loadings. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I'll take the efficiency of the 65Kpsi 280AI over the case capacity of the 61Kpsi 7RM. Published loads from Accurate, Nosler and others exist which will push a 160gr bullet over 3000fps out of a 26" 280AI. With my 26" 280AI I get 3050 fps with the 162 Amax and 3000 with the 168 VLD. No pressure signs and QL shows ~62 Kpsi with the Amax and ~63Kpsi with the VLD. This is squarely in 7RM territory. The 7RM, I feel is handicapped by the SAAMI mandated 61K pressure limit. | |||
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And you're probably not wasting case capacity either. I think the "Big 7" SAAMI pressure limit is due to erratic pressuer performance that has been a concern W/he 7mm Mag. Have you tried Norma MRP? Not sure what the performance would be for the 280 A.I W/your bullets, but for a 24" barrel, my QuickLoad calcs had a 139gr Hornady @ 3160 fps @ 59K. That was a 107% compressed load in thye standard 280 case. @ that load density my actual chronographed MV was just over 3200 so I would suspect I was getting closer to 63K. Your added case capacity for the A.I. running up to 65K should net you another 100 fps @ least. I couldn't get to 107% compress W/RL22 before I started flattening primers I was getting about 3150 W/the RL22. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I haven't tried MRP yet and have been getting the best results with RL22 and especially with Magpro. I've been liking Magpro a lot lately for both the 270W and the 280AI. Top velocities, good accuracy, and great metering. I've only used the 162 Amax and the 168 VLD as of yet and the heavy, high B.C. bullets are what I'm intending for this barrel. I do have a bunch of 140 VLD's that I'll try though. | |||
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trax, i can get 7 mag factory balistics, 140 gr. balistics with my throated 7x57, but factory stuff is on the weak side. i can,t come close to a good max handload of the 7 mag..a 7 mag will get you 3000 fps with a 175 gr nosler and thats cooking..ideal elk round. my best 7x57 elk load is 2900 plus a tad with a 160 nosler, close but no ceeegar. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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RL22 has been a close 2nd in my 280, but @ similar pressure, the MRP gets about 100 fps more. I live in a very small community where reloading supplies are hard to come by. A few years back Norma powders were getting very difficult to get so I resigned myself to using RL22. If you can get Norma MRP W/O too much trouble, give it a try. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Hello if you are putting a custom why not go with 280ai I shoot 150gr.schrico h4831sc 59.5gr awsome deer and you can get 5 rounds in your rifle in case you have to shoot a herd and to say you need a little bigger bulletts for elk unless they are alot heaver it wont matter after all dead is dead unless you knock em over | |||
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I assume from your posts that you have owned and loaded for the 7 Rem Mag a good deal? I hate to resort to loading manuals to prove points,but a quick look at the Nosler manual will tell you that: (a)one load in the 280 Remington does 3152 fps (close to your quoted velocity)with a 140 gr bullet from a 26" barrel....all the rest are below 3100. (b)Five (5) loads for the 7 Rem Mag exceed 3200 fps with the 140 gr bullet and from a 24" barrel. We can all do the math and I suspect that Nosler is not too concerned with these terrible pressure spikes that we read about, but for which little substantive proof is ever offered.I would also assume that Nosler is loading to SAAMI spec for the 7RM. (c) I might add that the same manual shows 6 loads exceeding 3000 fps with a 160 gr bullet in the 7RM,again from a 24" barrel. The 280 AI also shows several loads exceeding 3000 fps and other velocities comparable to a 7 Rem Mag,but....again....from a 26" barrel.They do not state the pressures. (d) might as well toss in the 270 at this point...with 140 gr bullets we are shown 3 loads that exceed 3000 fps...BUT, from a 24" barrel vs the 26" barrel shown for the 280.What would the 270 give with a 26" barrel? I don't know....but I woud bet there is not enough difference between it and a 270 to argue over... No game animal can tell the difference and that has been my experience, having used the 270 and 280 on game. It would appear to me, that to come close to a 7 Rem Mag,either the 280 or the 280 AI seems to need a longer tube than a 7 Rem Mag, and if we are to compare the cartridges fairly,it can only be in equal barrel lengths and at equal pressures. Other wise the comparisons are invalid. I have not owned a 280AI, because frankly I see no point in it when I have a 7mm Rem Mag....I would hardly refer to the 3.5 gr difference in powder charges between the listed loads of RL 22 and 140 gr bullets,as an argument for "efficiency" for the 280AI.Seems like a drop in the bucket to me.... It is well and good to compare these cartridges at varying pressure levels and declare one superior to the other,but I am pretty sure that Nosler has pressure testing equipment. I would bet some money that none of is involved in this discussion do... I can say that the number of rounds I have fired from 7 Rem Mags is likely by now in excess of several thousand, and from maybe in excess of 15-20 rifles (lost count). I can add a half dozen 280's into the mix. I have never encountered these pressure excursions that are talked about, at least that I could detect. Clinging to notions about pressure to prove the inherent superiority of one cartridge over the other is nice to dream about but if you don't know the exact pressures you are getting from your rifle and load(as opposed to guessing or depending on Quick Load,which can be completely wrong due to variations in barrels, throats and components) you are just guessing. Botton line: When it comes to velocity, case capacity rules the roost if all other factors are equal. Last thought: Revisionist history is nice to dream about....but the fact of the matter is that the 7 Rem Mag is not only the most popular belted case, but an international BG cartridge of world wide reputation. It so badly overwhelmed the 280 (great cartridge!)that the cartridge has barely recovered.Things are what they are.....it has had plenty of time to compete head to head with the 7 Rem Mag but has never caught up,eithet commercially nor over any chronograph. | |||
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While I agree that case capacity rules when all things are equal they aren't equal between the 280AI and the 7RM. The 7RM has a capacity advantage but the 280AI has a pressure advantage and when loaded right up to SAAMI specs they are very nearly identical. The regular 280 doesn't enjoy the pressure advantage of the AI version. A question. If the 7RM pressure spike issue isn't legit how else do you explain the downward revisions to it's SAAMI MAP? Is there an agenda within the industry to make the 7RM a weak stick? Like you said, Nosler and the rest have pressure testing equipment to allow them to develop loads right up to the allowable limit. The ammo makers don't want to have the lowest velocities among it's competitors so they load near the top (with a safety factor). Since I don't have a pressure testing system I'm forced to rely on published load data, a chronograph, and my experience judging pressure to develop effective loads. This is where the gap is closed between the 280AI and the 7RM. As for the popularity argument.............well let's just say popularity means zero to me. Bottom line is that the 280AI and the 7RM are nearly identical in performance but the 7RM does it with lower pressure, which many shooters prefer. | |||
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Then to be fair, you must also assume that the 280 is also loaded to the enemic SAAMI pressure standard developed to function in older, weaker semi autos that it was designed for.
And is Nosler using the 1960s SAAMI pressure data for the 7mm Mag or the current (downgraded) SAAMI pressure spec? GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Is it not safe to assume that ALL the major ammo makers abide by and adhere to the latest limits set by SAAMI? To do otherwise would be to invite lawsuits if a catastrophe happened. Common sense, but not hard data, tell me that the 280, 280AI and the 7RM are loaded somewhat under their respective SAAMI MAP (60K, 65K, 61K respectively) by all the companies which load the cartridges. The "all things being equal" argument doesn't wash because the allowable pressure limit isn't equal. | |||
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Isn't the SAAMI spec for 280 58,700 psi, or something similar? GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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According to this chart the SAAMI MAP for the 280 is 60Kpsi. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm And to this one. http://kwk.us/pressures.html Just noticed how badly they neutered the 284 Winchester. | |||
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recovered | |||
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The 7mm Mag had nothing to do W/the popularity problems encountered by the 7mm-06, redesigned & renamed 280 Remington, then renamed 7mm Express that was then being confused by the inept American shooting public W/the 7mm Mag hence renamed yet again back to 280 Remington. It was purely a marketing SNAFU similar, in the beginning, to the 7mm WSM dabacle. The 7mm WSM like the original 7mm-06 (280 rem)was found to sometimes chamber in 270 Win guns just as the 7mm WSM could sometimes chamber in a 270 WSM. The solution in both cases (no pun intended) was to move the shoulder forward. If the 280 had been designed correctly in the 1st place & chambered in bolt actions only @ the outset(like the 270 WIN)& loaded to 65K psi (again like the 270) we might never have had a 7mm Remington Mag. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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And yes there were factory chamberd 7mm-06 Remington rifles. http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/...e-a...-15166135.html http://www.gunsamerica.com/976...mington_7mm_06.htm?& http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...php/topics/2705132/1 I have read that there are actually some (rare) boxes of 7mm-06 ammo about too. http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/...e-a...-15166135.html GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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And yes there were factory chamberd 7mm-06 Remington rifle. http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/...e-a...-15166135.html http://www.gunsamerica.com/976...mington_7mm_06.htm?& http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...php/topics/2705132/1 I have read that there are actually some (rare) boxes of 7mm-06 ammo about too. [/QUOTE] What you say about the 280 Remington and moving the shoulder forward to prevent chambering in a 270 is true.....when it happened, the 7 Rem Mag did not exist,since the 280 was introduced (when?)in 1956(?);and the 7 Rem Mag in 1962. I guess we were all around when Remington renamed it the 7mm Express Remington....then back to 280 a few years later.That marketing snafu came much later,maybe in the late 70's or early 80's as I recall. I remember when it happened. I saw a tang safety Ruger M77 recently marked "7mm Express Remington". There's great article by Les Bowman in an older issue of American Rifleman,explaining how the 7mm Rem Mag came to be...can't remember the precise year or issue but there's a companion piece by Finn Aaggard with it. Bowman was largely responsible for developing the cartridge and formed it from 338 Win Mag brass.Wayne Leek and Mike Walker from Remington helped with load development on Bowman's ranch. Per the article,Bowman got called to a meeting at Remington when they were considering introducing the 7 Rem Mag.One of the questions asked by the Remington brass was what effect the new cartridge would have on sales of the 280. Bowman opined that shooters would go for the higher velocity of the new cartridge and 280 sales would be adversely affected.So it proved.... If you can find the article, it is a good read.I might have it buried in my computr files somewhere.Not sure. The 7 Rem Mag was just the last in a very long line of magnum capacity 7mm's that likely started with the 275H&H,the 276 and 280 Dubiel, the 7mm Mashburn,and likely many others.There was a ground swell of interest in such a cartridge for years. In the overall scheme of things, the 280 seems to still occupy the same niche it has for years...though a very good cartridge, it still seems not as popular as the 7 Rem Mag (or the 270 for that matter).Why this is I have no idea.But being sandwiched neatly between the two more popular cartridges likely did it no good. I know some think the 280 is recovered but I wonder what major manufacturers chamber for it now? Have I missed something? I really can't say what pressures Nosler is loading to....but whatever it is they seem comfortable with it. I would hardly call the data,nor the velocities "soft",but at least with the 140 and 160 gr bullets the velocities are pretty much in line with what I have gotten over the years....3200-3250 with 140 gr bullets and about 3050-3080 or so with 160's. These are pretty routine from 24" barrels, but different barrels will give different results with the same powder charges,just like any other cartridge. | |||
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ATKINSON,Please share your 7x57 160gr. loads @2,900fps. | |||
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You might do well to consider the 284 Winchester. A better designed cartridge than the 280 or 7 magnim & inherently more accurate. 284 winchester  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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What is really telling about the decline of American gun makers (or the entire American manufacturing base for that matter) is that Wichester made the exact same mistake W/the 7mm WSM. That screw up delayed the launch of the 7mm WSM behind the 270 WSM that in my mind should have never been developed in the 1st place. There is absolutely no advantage of a .277 bullet over the .284 bullet & the 7mm bullet has more than 2X the choices. In fact, a Sierra bullet chart I had a few years back showed more choices in .284 than .308! If Winchester would have had knowledgable "gun poeple" in their R&D department @ the time, that SNAFU would have NEVER happened. Inexcusable in my mind! College does not = knowledge & IMO that is where the root of the decline in American manufacturing lies. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Somebody Square the Volumetric difference of the 7mm Rem. Mag over the 280 and the IMP... I thinking with all that Powder in the 280 and the IMP to best the Ole 7mm Mag you Boys are finding a lot of bullets PoP'in Out before you can get them in Your Chambers... | |||
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I never had a bit of problem W/107% load density charges of MRP. Load density, as calculated by QuickLoad BTW, does take the bullet base into account as well as seating depth. I did not load to 107% of case capacity. There is a big difference between 107% case capacity & 107% load density I used a long drop tube & poured the powder so that it swirled arond the funnel before dropping into the drop tube. Bear in mind that my 139gr Hornady Interbond bullets were seated to be .015" off the lands @ 3.375" COAL which was easily swallowed up by the ridiculously "too long action" M700 CDL. I did not crimp the bullets in the cases either. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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There you go again Ray, You just don't get it do you? Why is it you always muddle up these debates with truth & facts? Why can't you just argue with emotion and senceless loyalty to your favorite cartridge?  Nate | |||
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And a 200gr Partition @ 2700 FPS out of an 8X57 is an "ideal Elk round" out to 300 yds. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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The 7Mag has more pop with heavier bullets. It always kind of tickles me that people say, it is only a little more than a .280. Following that, a 7x57 is only a little less than a .280. Somewhere it ends. That said, I'm not sure any one of them kills any better than a 7x57. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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A 7mm Rem Mag will do more on the top end of bullet weights thus making it more versatile. It is also a very popular round making factory ammo choices better along with the chances of finding it in some rural location when on a trip. I just built a semi-custom in the round a couple of years ago and have been very impressed. It's always so quiet when the goldfish die.(Bror Blixen) DRSS Merkel 470 NE | |||
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I get the same impression. | |||
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Excellent topic and discussion on 7mm's For me it is the standard 280 Rem from 140-160 grain bullets very nice and well ballanced cartridge for a hunter that handloads. If I need more than that for the intended task it is straight to the 300 Win mag. Yes you could argue that the 7 rem handloaded with 175's is a serious round with lots of power and you could talk recoil and you would not be wrong. If you can handle the recoil of a 7 rem with a 175 than you can handle the recoil of a 300 win with a 200. I will take a bigger bullet with more weight when the game gets bigger any day perhaps I might give up a few yards in point blank range versus the 7 mag but 99% of the time I can get closer to the game to make any difference in trajectory a mute point. | |||
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Well, that's the end of this conversation. Can't take seriously anybody's opinion of one vs the other if all they have done is read about one or the other;or checked Quickload as a reference. Sorry. | |||
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Wait a minute, are you saying that a person can't have an educated opinion on a subject unless one has 1st hand experience with it? Someone please tell my parishoners! For that matter, we probably shouldn't let most people vote, either!  friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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Considering the results of the last erection, that might not be a bad idea.  On another note, I have rifles in .280 Rem. and 7MM Rem. Mag. I don't like the 7MM Rem. Mag. at all as when I compare it to my .300 Win. mag. it's neither fish nor foul. JMHO. Paul B. | |||
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I am having my first 280 built right now. Tac300 Stiller action, Shilen bbl, 24" #3 contour, Jewel trigger, McM stock. But I've been shooting a 7mag for over 20 years. It's a great caliber among many and I'm glad I have it. I have no need for a 280 at all as I've got 270s and a 30.06, and 308. But I had the Shilen tube in the safe, thinking hard what I wanted to do with it and since there are so many opinions that the 280 is everything the 270 isn't, well I just had to see for myself. In regards to factory ammo, frankly, the market is very weak on it. I have a Bass Pro 20 minutes away. Only 280 ammo is Hornady, and curiously, the brass they used was RP. Went to a few Wmart stores. NO 280 ammo at all. Rack goes from 270 to 7mag. From what I can tell, the 280 is the black sheep among popular calibers. Being the 270 fan I am, I think a lot of hunters saw the 280 as an answer to a problem that never existed, especially when you have the 270, 30.06, and 7mag, not to mention the short actions. Lets face it, at most shots we all take, I'm guessing under a couple hundred yards, the bulk of the calibers available will do the job equally with a good load, factory, or handloaded, for any given rifle as long as the hunter doesn't eff up. With respect to the 280AI, I understand some rifles have feeding problems with this caliber due to the case/shoulder shape. No? Yes? I'm getting lazier with age, so I have no desire to fireform cases or mess with a feeding issue if it exists. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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friar: With all due respect that is exactly what I am saying....People are free to form educated opinions,but it generally leads to lousy and inaccurate information when distinguishing cartridge performance. Besides, if you have not shot the rifle,loaded for it,etc...how then is the opinion "educated"?  Because you read about it? Sorry does not wash IMHO.The internet is full of such nonsense,based on a lot of guessing that passes for "educated opinion". | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 280 Remington or 7mm Rem Mag
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