Saw something very interesting last week Friday, 30 June on one of my biltong (meat) hunts.

A guy had a very bad shot on a Bluewildebees cow - shot her high on the left hip with his 30-06 and a Winchester type of bullet - badly wounded animal took off and the co-owner of the farm (PH himself) near Alldays in Limpopo province had to track her down with his dog to kill the wounded animal.
Took two shots out of his 9.3 x 62 with 286gr Dzombo bullets to put her down. First shot on the left shoulder didn't even exit the animal. Apparently second shot did the job according to PH.

Why didn't the first perfectly broadside shot on the shoulder exit the Bluewildebees cow? Not really such a big and tough animal.
Is it the rifle that is not capable of doing it or is it rather the bullet that was used?

Any ideas?

Are you serious that you really have to ask this question?

I don't know anything about that bullet but it sounds like it was not up to the task. I'm sure a Nosler partition would have given complete penetration.
Jarrod, play nice.

Thanks for your highly intelligent response, Jarrod.

More about the Dzombo bullet used -
It is a SA manufactured monolithic flat nose solid intended for use on larger and dangerous game.

Again, is it the rifle not being capable to perform as expected, i.e. 9.3 x 62's case capacity not large enough to drive the bullet to achieve complete penetration or is this specific bullet type not up to it?

could the ammunition be substandard? maybe not up to full velocity

Dear Jagter

I dont think there is any problem with the bullet or rifle. Once that bullet hits a dynamic hard surface such as shoulder it can go anywere and tumble. I think the solid described was a flatpoint. In my experience perfect broadsides are rarely perfect 90 degree angles to the beasts soft/hard tissue.
Have a look at the European forum where a 150gn 308 at 30 yds didnt exit on a beast the size of a red duiker
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5421043/m/571109094

Regards

Mark

quote:

More about the Dzombo bullet used -
It is a SA manufactured monolithic flat nose solid intended for use on larger and dangerous game.

Again,is it the rifle not being capable to perform as expected, i.e. 9.3 x 62's case capacity not large enough to drive the bullet to achieve complete penetration or is this specific bullet type not up to it?

I agree with Mark H. I seriously doubt that the cartridge is to blame. As counterintuitive as it seems, that bullet would have penetrated DEEPER if it had been moving slower! An impact velocity of 1500-1600 FPS seems to be about optimum for deep penetration with either monolithic solids or hard cast lead bullets. (Most people refuse to believe this: if you have any doubts, read this!! http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp Just remember that resistance to penetration increases as the SQUARE of the velocity increase.)

I suspect the performance of that particular bullet was affected more by what it encountyered after impact than its constructio or impact velocity, and had it been travelling faster, it would probably have performed about the same. However, ANY change in the factors involved could have made a significant difference in what the bullet did after hitting the critter.....

El Deguello wrote:

quote:

I agree with Mark H. I seriously doubt that the cartridge is to blame. As counterintuitive as it seems, that bullet would have penetrated DEEPER if it had been moving slower! An impact velocity of 1500-1600 FPS seems to be about optimum for deep penetration with either monolithic solids or hard cast lead bullets.

He also wrote:

quote:

...... and had it been travelling faster, it would probably have performed about the same.

I beg to differ. Just the next day, Saturday, 1 July 2006 I also shot a Bluewildebees cow at a range of 40 meters in very thick bush (hence the short distance), a perfect broadside shot which completely penetrated and exited through the far shoulder - the BWbees cow dropped dead after 15 meters from where she was shot.
Rifle used was a Sako 7mm RemMag with a 130gr GS Custom HV (monolithic) bullet with a MV of 3400fps.

Seems as if penetration depth is after all determined by velocity - and of course the quality of the bullet, just to mention the basics.

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
El Deguello wrote:

quote:

I agree with Mark H. I seriously doubt that the cartridge is to blame. As counterintuitive as it seems, that bullet would have penetrated DEEPER if it had been moving slower! An impact velocity of 1500-1600 FPS seems to be about optimum for deep penetration with either monolithic solids or hard cast lead bullets.

He also wrote:

quote:

...... and had it been travelling faster, it would probably have performed about the same.

I beg to differ. Just the next day, Saturday, 1 July 2006 I also shot a Bluewildebees cow at a range of 40 meters in very thick bush (hence the short distance), a perfect broadside shot which completely penetrated and exited through the far shoulder - the BWbees cow dropped dead after 15 meters from where she was shot.
Rifle used was a Sako 7mm RemMag with a 130gr GS Custom HV (monolithic) bullet with a MV of 3400fps.

Seems as if penetration depth is after all determined by velocity - and of course the quality of the bullet, just to mention the basics.

Jagter, I fully agree, and I'd say the shot in question on the cow was most likely a sqibb load that didn't reach the proper velocity. The 9.3X62 is fully capable of a pass through in the shoulder of the willie cow, with a flt nose mono-lithic, loaded properly.
There is a window of velocity that induces good penetration with a solid bullet, and it seems to fall off below, and above that window. You can believe that Garrett crap if you want, but that isn't the window for bullet under 577 dia. For bullets from .366 dia, to .500 dia, the window is between 2100fps, and 2550fps, with the velocitie's high end, being best for the smaller dia bullets, and the slower best for the larger bullets! The flat point solids seem to be able to use a little more velocity and pennetrate well, than the buff, or round nose solids. The 1300-1500 fps quoted in the Garrett sales crap,are salesmen's speel, nothing more. This idea was extrapilated from the old 2, and 4 bore rifles of days gone by, that used very large lead bullets, and the reason was not to gain more pennetration, but that the shooter couldn't handle the recoil of anything faster in those cannons! In the final annalysis, I would suspect a cartridge that didn't get enough powder when loaded, was your problem!

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
Thanks for your highly intelligent response, Jarrod.

More about the Dzombo bullet used -
It is a SA manufactured monolithic flat nose solid intended for use on larger and dangerous game.

Again, is it the rifle not being capable to perform as expected, i.e. 9.3 x 62's case capacity not large enough to drive the bullet to achieve complete penetration or is this specific bullet type not up to it?

You are welcome. I was referring to asking about whether or not a 30-06 was up to the task not the bullet part.

My blue wildebeest bull stopped a 220 Hornady soft @ ~2400 on a broadside shoulder shot. The slug didn't hit any bones other than ribs. Found it under the skin on the far side neatly expanded with a retained weight of 125 grains. I was in the butchery on another occassion when a fella had no luck finding the exit wound on a warthog he shot in the head with a 375 H&H using 300 gr softs. These things happen.

quote:

I agree with Mark H. I seriously doubt that the cartridge is to blame. As counterintuitive as it seems, that bullet would have penetrated DEEPER if it had been moving slower! An impact velocity of 1500-1600 FPS seems to be about optimum for deep penetration with either monolithic solids or hard cast lead bullets.

Hi El Deguello,
I'm one of the people that don't believe this. I don't believe it enough to go out and test it out just to prove it. Go to this link and see what you think.http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html
Take good care,
Dave

As a general premise, yes, a bullet can be driven too fast for its constuction, and fail because it comes apart. However, the 9.3x62 will max out with 286gr bullets at about 2400 feet per second. Any well constructed bullet ought to fully penetrate a wildebeste-sized animal from the muzzle out to 175yds if started at 2400fps. Mine has put 286gr Partitions thru eland and zebra, and 250BT's at 2600fps through wildebeste, hartebeste, and several other species. I am inclined to think that it was a squib load.

I don't believe that a muzzle velocity of 1500 to 1600fps is ideal for bullet except maybe something like the .577 Snyder using lead bullets. Jacketed bullets or monometal bullets should be moving from 2200 to 2500 fps depending upon caliber and bullet weight. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:

Hi El Deguello,
I'm one of the people that don't believe this. I don't believe it enough to go out and test it out just to prove it. Go to this link and see what you think.http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html
Take good care,
Dave

Damn few people believe it! It just doesn't "stand to reason", or as Spock might say, "That's not logical!" However, I have seen the results of too many tests that make me believe that "Garrett crap" might have some truth in it---for example, a person killing two Cape Buffalo (one behind the other) with one bullet - from a .45/70!

Hi El Deguello,
It's common practice to make sure there is not another animal on the off side of the one your aiming at with any large bore rifle. Pass throughs on Cape Buffalo using solids with any large bore DGR generating 5000 ft.lb.of energy is common. If one guy with a 45/70 had it happen it doesn't mean that the 45/70 will out penetrate a large bore rifle. The same bullet path, which might have been a low resistance path, with a 500 grain solid travelling at 2200 fps might have passed through both animals.
Take care,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
Hi El Deguello,
It's common practice to make sure there is not another animal on the off side of the one your aiming at with any large bore rifle. Pass throughs on Cape Buffalo using solids with any large bore DGR generating 5000 ft.lb.of energy is common. If one guy with a 45/70 had it happen it doesn't mean that the 45/70 will out penetrate a large bore rifle. The same bullet path, which might have been a low resistance path, with a 500 grain solid travelling at 2200 fps might have passed through both animals.
Take care, Dave

You certainly have a point, dave. and since I did not personally carry out any penetration tests comparing slow-moving solid bullets with the same projectiles at higher velocities, I can't vouch for any results of such tests.

I can only look at the results others seem to be getting, and I do realize that there is no kind of truly scientific test that can predict what a bullet will actually do when it hits a game animal.

Two years ago I used a 9,3x62 loaded with 286 gr Noslers at 2425 fps on 5 head of plains game in RSA including a big old, Blue Wildebeast. Did not recover a single bullet ... all were pass throughs including a Zebra hit in the shoulder and the assurance shot through the spine between the shoulders.

The Nosler bullet tends to open up quite quickly but has good penetration thereafter.

My guess would be that the ammo was sub-par in your situation.

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quote:

I really cannot fault the heavy ( slow) bullet approach in the 9.3, after all it has withstood the test of time..... however I would also not go against Gerard in his approach as his bullets really work well.

In fact I would venture to state the GS custom pushes the traditional limitations of the 9.3 Mauser to a place it has never been and come to think of it I dont mind it at all cause now you can make longer shots with the 9.3 and heaven forbid may actually allow it to be used as a Sheep gun Wink Not to mention the 9.3 Brennecke or bigger. The GS Custom actually makes a huge amount of sense !

Imagine having a flat shooting 9.3 Mauser fast enough to reach out to a far off sheep with enough punch to keep a belligerent grizz in its place !

When reading the above, I cannot help to think that it was rather the bullet that didn't perform as expected in this case.

I what I have found is that way to many shooters hunters try and relate bullet prformance to the shooting of one critter.

There are way to many varibles to use the one bullet, one critter standard in blameing or saying a bullet is good,great or bad.

I read of way to many people who have one bad experance with a bullet to blameing the bullet.

Why did a bullet work perfectly one time and not the next. I have read of so called bullet failure from every bullet made from the super bullets the barnes X ,swifts ,noslers ect.

Not one well work perfectly all the time. Some come close and work more times not.

But then the question to ask what is perfect bullet preformance it varis.

I think that Mac37 is on target for the reason the bullet didn't do its job. I have used a 9.3 for 20 years. The only bullets that did not work out well for me were the Speer 270gr. soft points. I hit a large white tail at about 50yds. with a bullet going about 2600 f/s and the bullet killed the animal but also completely destroyed itself on the off shoulder. A flat nosed solid traveling at close to proper speed would not do that.

Jagter ----- I agree with p dog shooter, his post explains to the tee how things happen, even to good bullets and chamberings. While in Africa I shot a Kongoni in the shoulder and with the angle the bullet went through part of the shoulder and the neck bone and was found in the off side hide perfectly mushroomed. The chambering was a .358 STA and the bullet was 270 grain North Fork soft at 2850 fps. That very same bullet and load has been used by me and my son for some years now on Elk, as well as Zebra and Impala. Three years ago my son shot a Bull Elk at 125 yards and that same bullet penetrated both shoulders of the Bull then continued on to penetrate the head of a bedded down cow 25 yares beyond and was found on the opposite of the cranium upon final examination. ----- That told me two things, the Kongoni is very tough, the bullet performed perfectly yet still did not penetrate the animal completely. Each shooting and use of a bullet in the field is a different event where all conditions, angle of shot etc., can never be repeated exactly, therefore each case is an intity unto itself from which we can learn. Good bullets and great rifles have and will continue to achieve results that can never be predicted exactly. Just my .02 for what it is worth. Good shooting.

phurley5:

All true, but if you have seen the large amount of meat damage that specific non-exiting bullet did, you will agree that it could only been caused by a tumbling bullet. Hence the poor penetration as well.

Jagter ----- OK, you have concluded that the bullet tumbled from the damage done by a bullet that did not exit. A question, at what distance was the animal shot. Just trying to gather the facts. Good shooting.

Distance was just on 45 meters, could have been a minimum of 40 odd meters.
Very similar to what I had the next day -

quote:

Just the next day, Saturday, 1 July 2006 I also shot a Bluewildebees cow at a range of 40 meters in very thick bush (hence the short distance), a perfect broadside shot which completely penetrated and exited through the far shoulder - the BWbees cow dropped dead after 15 meters from where she was shot.
Rifle used was a Sako 7mm RemMag with a 130gr GS Custom HV (monolithic) bullet with a MV of 3400fps.

Your views please.

Jagter ----- If the bullet tumbled at 40-50 yards you have problems that are much more than a bullet, it is that simple. I have seen a bullet tumble, but at 500 plus yards. I don't have the answer, but if you conclude the bullet tumbled at that close a distance, then I think you need to look at the conclusion, instead of the rifle or bullet. Good shooting.

phurley5, I would appreciate it if you say what you mean by that.

In other words what would you say is the reason for the poor penetration and extensive meat damage? That although you hint that you don't know the answer!

Jatger ----- Was the load reloaded or was it a factory cartridge being shot. A reload could be suspect depending on the loader, a factory less so unless it was extremely old, or damaged in some way. I have read here on AR about solid bullets doing crazy things, such as hitting backbones and traversing the length of the animal. Differing angles of bullets cause funny things as you well know. Could you have missed an exit hole in the excitement of the moment, cull hunting can cause a bloody mess. Just thinking out loud. Good shooting.

It was a reloaded round, done by the PH himself and he did the shooting as well with his own 9.3 x 62.
It was not a cull, but the recovery of an animal wounded by another hunter in our group. The initial shot out of the hunter's 30.06 hit the animal in the hip - no confusion as to which bullet caused what damage.
The non-exiting bullet was found in the flesh of the opposite shoulder, didn't even penetrated that much as to reach the skin covering the opposite shoulder. With the naked eye it looked quite OK, but when compared with an unfired bullet of the same type a very slight curve could be noticed in the recovered bullet.

Any further ideas?

Jagter ----- I was comparing the 9.3X62 to my .358 STA. While the STA has more speed the penetration should be comparable. I shot a large Zebra Stallion with my STA using 270 grain soft North Fork bullets three times around the shoulder area, each bullet was a complete pass through. The Zebra went down with each shot, got up and ran again until he finally stayed down after a short run following the third shot. The Zebra was bigger, thicker, and from what I witnessed tougher than the Kongoni I had previously shot in the shoulder-neck bone that did not pass through, but lodged in the offside hide. Why did the larger, tougher animal fail to stop three softs yet the smaller animal stopped the very same bullet loaded exactly the same. In your case a solid failed to penetrate completely. The only solid I have shot at an animal was a 370 grain North Fork (.416 Rem) I shot a Cape Buffalo with after knocking him down with the soft. The shot through both shoulders was a complete pass through. Funny things happen when hunting, particularly with reloads. I shoot 3000 plus reloads per year and have for many years, I had only one that did not fire. When I examined the cartridge it had no powder. I could not beleave my fool proof system failed me, but that once it did. I have hunted many dangerous game animals since that failure, now I double and triple check each case after the powder is put in, particularly on loads taken to the hunting fields. We play an interesting game and the odd things will occur, given enough experience. Good shooting.

Do agree, odd things will and can occur in hunting.

However, it shouldn't withhold us from seeing the facts for what they really are when something 'odd' happens.

As mentioned earlier the specific bullet is a SA manufactured 286gr Dzombo monolithic solid.
Certain aspects of this specific bullet make it have a high possibility to tumble, namely:

GS (giroscopical stability factor) figure of just under 1.5 - should be at least 2.0 on non-deforming solids. The Woodleigh 286gr has a 3.0 GS figure.

The Dzombo's half round half flat nose can account for the rest.

These two facts together are almost a given that such a bullet will tumble on or shortly after impact.

A potential situation where somebody might get hurt some or other time simply because the specific bullet is not suitable to hunt or stop dangerous game.

So, I gather from your comments the bullet has too much weight forward, pretty much promising a tumble after impact?

After reading this, I wonder if the rifle twist was suitable, maybe needs to be faster to stabilize that bullet.

Also, the animal had been shot already, so adrenalin
would also effect subsequent results to shots.

Penetration is, I think, more a function of bullet WEIGHT, then velocity. And yes, with handguns, we have observed, and killed bison, asian buffalo, etc. and, bullet weight, bullet overall surface area, and, last, velocity between 1100-1350 fps do kill with about the same effect as a 375, and, with LFN's, cut a large, straight hole through the target most times, where a lighter bullet, like a 375, might be turned by heavy bone.
With pistols, it's 360 grain bullets in 45 Colt, for about 38" of buffalo, 420 grain bullets in the .475, and 525 grain bullets in the .510 MAX.

What's the ballistic coefficent of these Dzombo bullets? It would seem to me that it would be pretty long for that caliber, and, provide an excellent ballistic coefficent.
Do they use a heavy monometal, resulting in a shorter then normal bullet, since that seems what your GS figures indicate? Perhaps, to stablize, if that's the case, he should be using heavier bullets, like 350 grains, to stabilize?

GS

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Haven't got details on rifle's twist since it is somebody else's rifle - PH who shot wounded animal.

No web site either to check what type of metal is used - looks like brass only or some alloy mix from the picture of an unfired bullet shown next.

This is what Dzombo bullets look like -



Fact remains a PH and perhaps other people as well, rely on this bullet to do a recovery job or even worse to stop a charging animal, and it simply didn't do so.

Alf, in reply to your question 1 please follow this link.
It will give you a far better explanation than I can.

2. From what I've learned from GSCFN's 100% flat. Add to it your own words: "What is more the cilinder that is left due to it's geometric shape is the most stable configuration there is. It is the ideal scenario for large bodied game."
As to the Barnes bullet with the same design I cannot comment.

3. As I have already said: "The non-exiting bullet was found in the flesh of the opposite shoulder, didn't even penetrated that much as to reach the skin covering the opposite shoulder." I also mentioned the following: ".... but if you have seen the large amount of meat damage that specific non-exiting bullet did, you will agree that it could only been caused by a tumbling bullet."
This should have already answered your question even before you've asked it.
Potential lethality? Low if the vitals were not reached. Hence the neccessity of a second shot by the PH to kill the already wounded animal.

4. You asked: "So what has suddenly changed?" One thought immediately coming up in my mind is that FMJ's tend the break up easily and shatter lead al over the place - hitting the vitals possibly and killing the animal. Not so with monolithic bullets.

Something out of all this tells me that we, certain PH's as well, should learn to place our shots far better so that vitals are definitely reached when using sophisticated monolithic bullets.

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Alf, I will repeat this once again since you say:

quote:

So if we assume placement was correct then a Dzombo, or whatever would be sufficient to penetrate the 13 inches or so needed to breach the vitals. In fact if that Dzombo tumbled the wound within the vitals would likely have 3 times the volume of a solid that passed straight through. ( this in fact is the main contributor to lethality of so called humane military bullets as dictated to by variuos treaties. If they remain nose first they do little or no damage in spite of high velcoities, when they tumble however the lethality simply goes over the top!)
In the anxious moments of shooting an animal chased up by a tracker dog the PH placed the shot above the location of the vitals on the shoulder - don't think anyone can blame him for that! So, the bullet hit solid meat and this is where the disappointment comes in, bullet only penetrated about 7 inches to end up just entering the flesh of the opposite shoulder. Personally I think that bullet tumbled on impact already!
This leads me to believe that perhaps the Dzombo actually did what it was supposed to do and it actually made a predictable small hole right through the wildebeest and it was not sufficient to kill it outright.

Once again Alf, please read what was already said - bullet did not exit and caused massive meat damage!

Let me add now, the dog fighted the animal while it was standing on its knees and the PH placed a second shot very low from almost behind the animal between the shoulder and the body into the vitals. This bullet exited through the brisket having travelled a very short distance in the animal - again a lot of meat damage was caused by this second bullet.

The first Dzombo's performance was pathetic in anybody's terms. Although the second one finally killed the poor animal, the mess it made in it's penetration path was to say the least, sickening.

Whatever was or went wrong with that 9.3 x 62 and the combination of a 286gr Dzombo I don't know, but surely I will never use that type of bullet after the above fiasco.

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