Once again, this is not to start a "pissing' contest or an invitation to a mud slinging contest.

On another wild hair I got about downloading a 7 x 57 so that it might be mild enough for a kid or a recoil consciencious person to use in the field. I loaded up one yesterday and went out and just chronographed it to see what I might get.

26 grains of IMR 3031, in a Ruger bolt action gave me muzzle velocities of about 1750 fps with a 175 grain Remington Core Lokt bullet that I usually buy locally from a guy who carries them in bulk. They are good for chronographing ( cheap). Not a bad bullet for hunting either.

Instead of going across town to the range, I went out in the woods nearer to the house. A clearing I know of is about 150 yds across at its max. I used a tree of about 18 inches plus in diameter as a back stop, 100 yds away.

After I shot my seven rounds I had loaded and recorded, I walked over to the tree to see if any of the bullets had penetrated completely thru for curiousity's sake. To my SURPRISE all 7 bullets had gone completely thru the tree. Muzzle velocity had been averaging at 1750 fps.

High sectional density and low velocity still seem to do a decent job. Can't say if the bullets mushroomed to their full potential, but they definitely penetrated!

Two 160 grain Sierras in a 6.5 x 55 with a MV of 1900 fps also penetrated the tree completely.

Just passing on some interesting observations, that took me by surprise.

Hi Seafire.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of tree and in what health? I've heard of the 6.5x55 160 gr FMC can penetrate 6 or so FEET of cured walnut at military ammo velocities (way more than 30-06 ball ammo).

I have had experiences to what you described using rounds of dry white (and black) ash and my 7mm BR (rifle). Beginning loads with 140 or heavier bullets that thing can shoot through an amazing amount of wood.

Clearly the bullets are expanding very little.

Have you made up a 250-3000 yet? You will like it...

9.3

That�s interesting seafire. Generally speaking bullets that are stable at there lowest threshold velocity for expansion 1.5-2X diameters, will penetrate the deepest(aside from stable solids). Drive them faster... and they will penetrate less. Drive them slower... and they will tumble and penetrate less. There are many problems with this notion however... like it has to be a homogenized substance TO MAKE THE CASE comparable, the casual relation between velocity and penetration of hard materials, and that bones or heavy density changes can result in tumbling ESPECIALY if the bullet was fired at low velocity and not bleed-out from a higher velocity etc... Also... the X and fail-safes have a wider threshold for velocity and penetration. The nosler partition also will penetrate at similar depths over a wide range BECAUSE IT LOOSES ITS CORE quickly and isn�t using energy on malleable deformation, not because it has reached a greater diameter, as most people claim (trivial). Wood often envelopes a bullet enough to prevent it from tumbling.

Bla bla aside I go by a few rules on low velocity...
I wont shoot deer size game with any soft point that doesn�t have a 1/2 or less in diameter radius ogive/ellipses (or with a SWC or simlair nose profile), and is not above 35 caliber, unless it has a striking velocity of greater then 1500 fps or greater. Even at that close of a notch id have to seriously look at my set-up.
Id think a 140-175 7mm at 2250-2300 would make a great deer rifle. You will have to play with it more and tell us what you find.

[ 08-24-2003, 12:03: Message edited by: smallfry ]

Hi seafire
Did you load with FMJ or SP?
those 6,5x55 loads famous for penetration are loaded with fmj steel jacket@2300-2400 fps.
regards
danny

Well, lets see if I can answer questions put forth in the 3 posts above;

9.3 x 62: Naw, the 250 Savage is on my to do list. I am actually thinking about having a Mauser rebarreled to the 250 using a bull Barrel.
I hear some good accuracy experiences with it.

Sorry, don't know what type of tree it was, and I am not a horticulturalist. I can tell the difference between a hardwood and a conifer. Althought from swiping apples as a kid, I can pick out an apple tree a mile away!

Small Fry: You must be an engineer. However, according to the manual if the MV was 1750, it was still going over 1600 fps at 100 yds. I was surprised that the 175 grainer at least doesn't give up velocity as quick at low muzzle velocity as it does at higher muzzle velocity. This is the type of stuff I love to do, handloading. Experimenting. I am amazed at what I find out.
A lot of stuff that is contrary to " modern" ways of thinking.

If I do any more with the 7 mm bullets, I will post them.

Danny Pay: The bullet that I had loaded was the Sierra 160 grain Round Nose. That already has a reputation for a deep penetrating bullet. I am not aware personally of a source for the FMJ and really don't have much an application for it, unless I can target shoot with it cheaper than the jacketed bullets!

Everyone, take it easy and good luck hunting this fall.

In South Africa a few years ago, my brother Alvin used a 1895 Chilean Mauser 7x57 with 175 grain Nosler Partitions at about 2,400 fps to take everything from kudu to wildebeest. Longest shot was on the kudu at a measured 200 yards. We did not recover any bullets. One shot -- complete penetration -- on everything.

Hammer

Yeah Johan:

high Sectional density. I sure miss the old 275 grain Semi Spitzer in the 338 bore from Speer.

It had a sectional density of like 348 or so, and a BC of 466 to 500 or so. ( forget the exact BC's but it was really high for a SSP).
It was a LONG bullet, just like the 160 grain 6.5 bullets.

As I said on another thread, "Seafire, Ol' W.D.M. Bell once stated that the 175-grain 7mm solid round nose was the only bullet he had ever heard whistling away through the air after it had gone thru an elephant's head!!"

I think your experience, with a softnose, no less, supports this statement of the old poacher!!

I have also been impressed with the penetration (of trees!!) shown by the German military 198-grain 7.92X57IS load. A lot more than the U.S. G.I. M2 ball round!!

I recall reading several times in Handloader or Rifle that most normal expanding bullets need about 2000 fps at impact to expand reliably. If you load up to the old military velocities around 2300 fps you should achieve that at any distance where a kid should be shooting. Wet or dry newspapers should tell you if you're getting expansion.

JF

/

Alf, That is really amazing. Goes to show the good work that was done years ago and mostly forgotten-except to the few!

I wholeheartedly believe that WAY too much emphasis is placed on the big numbers game today and not nearly enough on real world experience where cartridge/bullet capabilities are concerned.

Alfs post is a shining example of how well some of yesteryears cartridges were concieved and how equally underrated they are today.

Alf:

Excellent Move bringing up that info and sharing it with the Rest of Us.

WesternHunter:

Amen to far too many people base hunting on Numerical Statistics and not enough real world experience. It is almost a smaller and smaller crowd that knows that the older turn of the century stuff worked also. All we really have done is increase the "Range" potential of calibers/bore size, with major increase in recoil, which prevents many shooters from taking full advantage over that "increase in range".
Alot of these guys should really be carrying 243s and 30/30s.

Sort of like a catch 22.

Alf Once again Thanks! Eh??

Well the magic load is a 175 gr 7mm or 160 gr 6.5mm is a MV of around 2400 fps. One of my favorite loads is a 175 gr. Nosler Partition out of a 7 mm x 57mm. I get around 2500 fps out of a Brno ZKK 600. My other is a 160 gr Hornaday RN in 6.5 x 55 at around 2500fps. Both loads will perform on game all out of proportion to what the paper numbers says they will do. I would and have hunted both elk and moose with both loads.

All this discussion warms my heart and eases any concerns I may have about my own 7x57, a little Brazillian Mauser carbine with an 18.5-inch barrel. I had a Lyman aperture sight mounted to the receiver and changed the original pyramid front sight to a blade. The load I normally use pushes a 175-grain Hornady Roundnose out at a little over 2,400 feet per second. I jokingly call this little Mauser my "Jungle Carbine". I've shot it a fair amount on paper but I haven't taken it out hunting yet.

One of these days...