quote:
Originally posted by jabali:
MAGNUM IS A RELATIVE TERM. IT DOESEN`T MEAN VELOCITY, BECAUSE YOU HAVE MAGNUMS AT 2600 FPS LIKE THE .338, AND NAGNUMS AT 3000 FPS -.270-, AND IN THE OTHER HAND IT DOESN`T MEAN RECOIL, CAUSE FOR INSTANCE THE 7 REM MAG, HAS LESS RECIL THAN A 30-06.

RESULT:CHOOSE THE CALIBRE YOU LIKE, BE SHURE YOU`RE CAPPABLE OF PUTTING THE BULLET IN THE RIGHT PLACE!.

GOOD HUNTING.

The above, which has been lifted out of the favourite non magnum thread, strikes me as interesting, what is the definition of a muggdem, (read magnum) cartridge.
Pondoro Taylor, (a Brit, and I think it was the Brits, but I could be wrong, who coined the use of the word "magnum" cartridges), wrote of magnum and none magnum rounds being ones which were either over or under 2,500 fps.
Ergo the 7mm Mauser with it's 140 grain bullet at 2,750 fps was a magnum load but with the 173 grain bullet at 2,300 fps was not.
Nowadays in seems to be a magnum cartridge is one which has a belted case,('cause that's what the 375 had), with out any reference to velocity
What do others understand is a "Magnum" cartridge?
Thanks.

oldun,
I think the word "magnum" harks back to Latin for "bigger".

Honestly, now days ... the term is almost obsolete other than as a marketing tool. Its no longer linked to the belt either.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
oldun,
I think the word "magnum" harks back to Latin for "bigger".
Con

A more accurate translation from Latin is Large.

I read in a hunting mag years ago that the magnum term referring to a cartage came about from some very old gun writer stating the cartage resembled a magnum champaine bottle.

Whether that is how it started I don't know but I do remember reading that.

I thought I'd do a search on google and came up with this from http://www.newtoguns.com/book/export/html/10

"A number of cartridges are called "Magnums". This might cause a few of us to recall the .44 Magnum popularized by Clint Eastwood. (The .44 Magnum, by the way, actually uses .429" bullets.) Magnum is a word borrowed from Champagne. Around the third quarter of the 19th Century, rifle manufacturers started marketing large, powerful cartridges called the "Magnum" version of pre-existing ones. Just like a Magnum Champagne bottle, these cartridges were huge because they needed to pack a lot of powder in their brass cases. Today, the word Magnum is used rather loosely to indicate a cartridge that packs a lot of power compared to another of similar bullet diameter. The 300 Winchester Magnum (commonly called the 300 Win Mag) shoots the same bullet as the 30-06; only, the former has a larger case that holds more powder, and it is thus a faster cartridge."

OF COURSE MAGNUM MEANS BIG IN LATIN. IN REFERENCE WITH CARTRIDGES ONLY MEANS THAT A CASE HAVE A BELT. THERE`S NOTHING TO DO WITH REAL POWER, AND BESIDES THAT, I BELIVE IN THE PAST GUN MAKERS CREATE A LOT OF "MAGNUM" CARTRIDGES ONLY FOR "MARKETING" REASONS.

REMEMBER, IN THE 60´S IN THE U.S.A., -AND IN THE 7-80´S IN MY COUNTRY ARGENTINA- GUN COMPANYS ADVERTISED "MAGNUMS" AS THE "SOLUTIONS FOR ALL YOUR PROBLEMS", LIKE WEATHERBY`S. AND IF YOU DON`T HAVE A MAGNUM, YOU`RE UNDERGUNNED.

THIS IS TOTALY DIFFRENT IN GERMANY, FOR INSTANCE. THERE YOU HAVE 6,5X68, 8X68, 7 VOM HOFFE, ETC. ALL CARTRIDGES EQUAL THAN 264, 7 REM, 338, THERE´RE BIG, VERY HIGH SPEED, BUT NON OF THEM HAVE BELT, NOR THEY CALL THEM MAGNUMS!.

AND I DON`T WANT TO TALK ABOUT SHORTS MAGNUMS FOR CRIST SAKE!!! U.S.A IS A BIG MARKET, BUT LISTEN, FOR HUNTING THERE`S NOTHING UNDER THE SUN. -I LOVE GUNS AND I HAVE PLENTY-

FOR HUNTING DO WHAT THE OLD PROS SAYS, GOOD BULLET AT MODERATE VELOCITY, THE REST FOR TALKING IN THE RANGE.

/

The popularity of the term began with the wine industry. It meant a bottle of wine bigger than a quart but smaller than a gallon or their metric equivilent. In the arms industry, the term came to mean a cartridge that was bigger than standard. And was originally intended to send a greater weight of metal downrange at the same velocity as a standard cartridge. The belt was incidental and an expedient because of the long taper on the H&H cartridges. The belt was used to make a positive stop rather than risk the cartridge being pushed along infront of the bolt and jammed into the rifling.
When Roy Weatherby began playing around with hyper-velocity and invented hydrostatic shock, he used as his parent case the H&H case. Because of his successes, in America the term magnum came to be deemed a large, belted case sending a light bullet downrange at excessive speed. The belt was obligatory in the USA. There were other rounds introduced that fit the critera for magnum but without the belt. They failed to thrive. In Europe there are a number of cartridges that could easily be deemed magnums that are not belted.
The initial rush has subsided and more knowledgeagle heads have prevailed. How far a bullet goes after it passes thru an animal is of little moment but properly used a magnum does give you a flatter trajectory and does deliver a greater weight of metal downrange at a better velocity. but too, if sending a light for calibre bullet downrange at some sort of boyhowdylookwhaticando speed strokes your ego, that's okay too. It is, after all, your rifle.
I do believe that the demands of the magnum rifles, both belted and non-belted, is what has driven the inprovements in the bullets we enjoy today.

It's my understanding the the use of the word magnum in connection withe the 375 was in order to make clear the difference between the 400/375;(1904), Belted Nitro Express and the 375 Belted Magnum Nitro Express;(1912).

The BSA Belted Rimless Nitro Express,(c1920) was as it's name indicates on a belted case but was not refered to as a magnum.
The Gibbs 256 Magnum;(1913), was not on a belted case, the velocity was 2,600 fps.
Make of this what you will.

Mag -- magnus -- magnum -- all are latin-rooted words implying "big" or larger than usual.

A "magnum" of champaign is accepted as double the "standard" bottle. That was once 4/5 of a quart or 1/5 of a gallon, and more recently 3/4 of a liter, or 750 ml. Thus a "magnum" of wine/champaign is accepted to be 1.5 liters these days. Other than its somewhat parallel application in the wine industry, the term "magnum" as used in firearms was not, to my knowledge, borrowed from the wine industry but rather developed more or less directly from the latin root.

I'm unaware of the term being applied to any cartridge before the .375 H&H in 1912. Subsequently, it became connected with any cartridge on the H&H belted case head, including the .30-06-capacity 6.5 & .350 Remington Magnums.

Any number of non-belted cases, particularly handgun cases, have been tagged with the "magnum" moniker. Perhaps the first was the .357 Magnum in the 1930s. Of course neither it nor any subsequent handgun "magnum" had a belted case; they were usually just a longer case loaded to higher pressures than their non-magnum parent cases.

As the term grew in popularity (and became a sales gimmick) any number of non-belted rifle cases were named "magnum" by their proprietary producers. The .222 Magnum, while one of my favorite cartridges, is hardly a "magnum" by any measure of size, design, or power. Similarly, when Remington renamed the .244 Remington for marketing purposes, the at first tried to call it the 6mm Remington Magnum, but soon dropped the "magnum" term since it didn't appear to help marketing.

Insofar as European cartidges, most are Johnny-come-latelies to the "magnum" designation. Before the term became so popular, larger, more powerful European cartridges were often tagged with the term "super express".

Shotguns were not to be left out. Everone is familiar with the introduction of 3" inch (as opposed to "regular" 2 3/4") shells soon after WW II. The three-inchers were marketed as "3-inch magnums" and gained popularity with waterfowlers and others who lusted for more shot. More recently, a 3.5" magnum has been marketed in 12 gauge. Not to be outdone in the sales department, ammunition manufacturers also labeled the ordinary 2 3/4" shells as "magnums" when loaded with more shot than typical high velocity ("high brass") shells normally came with.

The term "magnum" as it applies to cartridges and ammunition -- and the guns chambered for them -- obviuosly has no standardized definition. A "magnum" is whatever cartridge someone so names. To earn the suffix, it seems that a cartridge must simply be larger or in some way more powerful than some other cartidge in the same bore or gauge. Thus the .222 Magnum is only legitimately a "magnum" because there is a smaller, less powerful cartridge, the .222 Remington. This is true even though it is clearly smaller and less powerful than the "non-magnum" .22-250.

Here are some examples of pre 375 Holland and Holland use of the word magnum in cartridge nomenclatures.
425 Westley Richards Magnum (1909)
500/450 Magnum Nitro Express 31/4" (c1890) a Holland & Holland cartridge
500/450 Magnum BPE (c1880),

I too think that the use of the word magnum in the gun trade is likely to go back to the Latin root, having nothing as such to do with it's use in the wine trade.
In the 19th and ealier part of the 20th centuries Latin was taught, and still is today, in the better English schools.

How about the .22 (rimfire) magnum? A longer case, more powder, more velocity, and a higher price than the .22 LR.

Did research on this 20 years ago.

The term magnum was first used to differentiate between the .577 3 inch and .577 3 1/4 inch rounds in the early 1890's. I think it was 1892.
I have a 16 pound damascus barrelled Alexander Henry double in .577 Black Powder Express Magnum. It says so on the original order when the Prime Minister of Nepal ordered it in
1894.As far as I could find out in the pre-internet days this was the first time the marketing gnomes applied the magnum title to a rifle cartridge. That extra 1/4 inch of black powder must have made all the difference!!
It makes a great rabbit cartridge too. I feel very safe using mine on those very dangerous attack rabbits we have here.

I thought I'd mention the 505 Rimless Magnum,(1913), better known as the 505 Gibbs. There was no other 505 cartridge large or small in 1913.
Stonecreeks remarks that the term has no standard definition, therefore use, makes sense, ergo a magnum cartridge is what ever the designer, and or manufacturer decides to call it.
Magnum Smagnum

I should think up a .458 Gumboot Magnum .

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
I should think up a .458 Gumboot Magnum.

Try necking up a .22 rimfire.

There really is no definition on when or how to use the word in describing cartridges.

For example, I find it funny when people say 300 Weatherby Magnum. I just say 300 Weatherby. There is no need for Magnum following Weatherby... it's implied.

I also found it interesting that Ruger didn't apply Magnum to the 375 Ruger. This tells me that it's no longer neccessary to use the word. But I could certainly understand someone who would argue that the 375 Ruger is a magnum.

To each his own.